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#1
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Need ID of Hungarian Medal or translation
KELCZ GYULAK Kelcz family name, first name Gyulak
KLOBUSICZKY LIVIA Klobusiczky family name, first name, Livia SZERENCSES LUCKY OR A SURNAME NASZNAPJUK ? KEDVES EMLEKERE LOVABLE ? BUDAPESTEN Budapest, Capital of Hungary 1892 OKTOBER 14EN probably date of wedding, Oct 14th, 1892 AJANLJA MULLER JOZSEF engravor Will post scan tomorrow on alt.binaries.pictures.numismatic Medal is small proof bronze with two coat of arms on obverse and above inscriptions on reverse. Engravers name near edge below on reverse. TheDimeMan |
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#2
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See scan of medal on alt.binaries.pictures.numismatic
"TheDimeMan" wrote in message ink.net... KELCZ GYULAK Kelcz family name, first name Gyulak KLOBUSICZKY LIVIA Klobusiczky family name, first name, Livia SZERENCSES LUCKY OR A SURNAME NASZNAPJUK ? KEDVES EMLEKERE LOVABLE ? BUDAPESTEN Budapest, Capital of Hungary 1892 OKTOBER 14EN probably date of wedding, Oct 14th, 1892 AJANLJA MULLER JOZSEF engravor Will post scan tomorrow on alt.binaries.pictures.numismatic Medal is small proof bronze with two coat of arms on obverse and above inscriptions on reverse. Engravers name near edge below on reverse. TheDimeMan |
#3
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Pretty good translation, there, Dime Man! Was that from Babblefish, or
are you ... KELCZ GYULAK Kelcz family name, first name Gyulak First name Gyula = Julius. The k shows something grammatical. Hungarian is highly inflected: adessive, inessive, progressive, regressive, as well as the more common nominative, genitive, dative, accusative, vocative, and ablative known from Latin, Greek, Russian, etc. My guess is "From Julius Kelcz" but "To Julius Kelcz" (and the happy bride, of course) is also possible; see below. SZERENCSES Happy (lucky, fortunate) NASZNAPJUK ? NASZ = Wedding NAP = day juk (something grammatical? on, to, for ...) KEDVES = Dear, etc. EMLEKERE = medal, medallion (shares roots with "memory" words, but means medal or medallion) BUDAPESTEN ~en = In Budapest AJANLJA MULLER JOZSEF Presented by Joseph Muller, perhaps, unless you know that he was the engraver. (But can you PRONOUNCE it?? Szernecses would be transliterated into American as Sair-nech-esh or perhaps serneh-chesh... Reminding me of the GREEN ACRES where Lisa goes to college and the professor writes PSYCHE on the blackboard and Lisa says "p-shee-shee"...) Szervusz, Marotta Mihaly |
#4
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"Mike Marotta" wrote in message oups.com... (But can you PRONOUNCE it?? Szernecses would be transliterated into American as Sair-nech-esh or perhaps serneh-chesh... Reminding me of the GREEN ACRES where Lisa goes to college and the professor writes PSYCHE on the blackboard and Lisa says "p-shee-shee"...) Szervusz, Marotta Mihaly Michael, are you knowledgeable regarding the topic of transliteration? If so, I have a question that no one has ever been able to answer. It could even be construed as applicable to coins. James |
#5
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? "Mike Marotta" ?????? ??? ??????
oups.com... Pretty good translation, there, Dime Man! Was that from Babblefish, or are you ... KELCZ GYULAK Kelcz family name, first name Gyulak First name Gyula = Julius. The k shows something grammatical. Hungarian is highly inflected: adessive, inessive, progressive, regressive, as well as the more common nominative, genitive, dative, accusative, vocative, and ablative known from Latin, Greek, Russian, etc. My guess is "From Julius Kelcz" but "To Julius Kelcz" (and the happy bride, of course) is also possible; see below. SZERENCSES Happy (lucky, fortunate) NASZNAPJUK ? NASZ = Wedding NAP = day juk (something grammatical? on, to, for ...) KEDVES = Dear, etc. EMLEKERE = medal, medallion (shares roots with "memory" words, but means medal or medallion) BUDAPESTEN ~en = In Budapest AJANLJA MULLER JOZSEF Presented by Joseph Muller, perhaps, unless you know that he was the engraver. (But can you PRONOUNCE it?? Szernecses would be transliterated into American as Sair-nech-esh or perhaps serneh-chesh... Reminding me of the GREEN ACRES where Lisa goes to college and the professor writes PSYCHE on the blackboard and Lisa says "p-shee-shee"...) Szervusz, Marotta Mihaly Ighen :-) Here is my interpretation: ################################################## ############ KELCZ GYULAK KLOBUSICZKY LIVIA SZERENCSES NASZNAPJUK KEDVES EMLEKERE BUDAPESTEN 1892 OKTOBER 14-EN AJANLJA MULLER JOZSEF Kelcz Gyula & Klobusiczky Livia szerencsés násznapjuk kedves emlékére Budapesten 1892 október 14-én (i.e., tizennégyedikén) ajánlja Müller József approx.: "József Müller (Josef Müller) offers/proposes/bids/issues(?) (a medal) kindly commemorating/evoking/remembering Gyula (Julius) Kelcz's [read kelts] and Livia Klobusiczky's [read claw-boo-****z-ky] lucky wedding (day) in Budapest on Oct. 14th, 1892". (Or: "(a medal) issued by J.M. commemorating GK's & LK's ...") (actually, rather "lucky nuptial/s" nász-; for "wedding" one rather chooses esküvö) (read: Kelcz [kelts], Klobusiczky [claw-boo-****s-kee]) ################################################## ############ Szervusz. -- E' mai possibile, oh porco di un cane, che le avventure in codesto reame debban risolversi tutte con grandi puttane! F.d.A Coins: http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/golanule/my_photos http://gogu.enosi.org/index.html http://www.romclub.4t.com/rabin.html |
#6
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Ï "James Higby" heezerbumfrool[at]hotmail[dot]com Ýãñáøå óôï ìÞíõìá
... "Mike Marotta" wrote in message oups.com... (But can you PRONOUNCE it?? Szernecses would be transliterated into American as Sair-nech-esh or perhaps serneh-chesh... Reminding me of the GREEN ACRES where Lisa goes to college and the professor writes PSYCHE on the blackboard and Lisa says "p-shee-shee"...) Szervusz, Marotta Mihaly Michael, are you knowledgeable regarding the topic of transliteration? If so, I have a question that no one has ever been able to answer. It could even be construed as applicable to coins. I could help you James if it has something to do with Hungarian or with linguistics in general, though in a limited degree... Even if I can't help you I have a good friend who is quite knowledgeable in the sector. -- E' mai possibile, oh porco di un cane, che le avventure in codesto reame debban risolversi tutte con grandi puttane! F.d.A Coins: http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/golanule/my_photos http://gogu.enosi.org/index.html http://www.romclub.4t.com/rabin.html James |
#7
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"gogu" wrote in message ... Ï "James Higby" heezerbumfrool[at]hotmail[dot]com Ýãñáøå óôï ìÞíõìá ... "Mike Marotta" wrote in message oups.com... (But can you PRONOUNCE it?? Szernecses would be transliterated into American as Sair-nech-esh or perhaps serneh-chesh... Reminding me of the GREEN ACRES where Lisa goes to college and the professor writes PSYCHE on the blackboard and Lisa says "p-shee-shee"...) Szervusz, Marotta Mihaly Michael, are you knowledgeable regarding the topic of transliteration? If so, I have a question that no one has ever been able to answer. It could even be construed as applicable to coins. I could help you James if it has something to do with Hungarian or with linguistics in general, though in a limited degree... Even if I can't help you I have a good friend who is quite knowledgeable in the sector. OK, I'll start with a simple one.When I was in high school I learned that the Islamic holy book was the KORAN, spelled thus. I knew it wasn't really spelled that way, as it is an Arabic word, written in Arabic, but spelled phonetically with the Western alphabet for those of us who do not read Arabic. But now all of a sudden the transliteration has become QU'RAN. In my view, this is not nearly as straightforward as KORAN. Why the QU instead of the simpler and unambiguous K? And what's the deal with the apostrophe? So as to go back on the topic of coins, why are some unit coins of Arabic countries called RIALS while others are called RIYALS? Seems to me those two spellings represent identical sounds. James |
#8
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Ï "James Higby" heezerbumfrool[at]hotmail[dot]com Ýãñáøå óôï ìÞíõìá
... "gogu" wrote in message ... Ï "James Higby" heezerbumfrool[at]hotmail[dot]com Ýãñáøå óôï ìÞíõìá ... "Mike Marotta" wrote in message oups.com... (But can you PRONOUNCE it?? Szernecses would be transliterated into American as Sair-nech-esh or perhaps serneh-chesh... Reminding me of the GREEN ACRES where Lisa goes to college and the professor writes PSYCHE on the blackboard and Lisa says "p-shee-shee"...) Szervusz, Marotta Mihaly Michael, are you knowledgeable regarding the topic of transliteration? If so, I have a question that no one has ever been able to answer. It could even be construed as applicable to coins. I could help you James if it has something to do with Hungarian or with linguistics in general, though in a limited degree... Even if I can't help you I have a good friend who is quite knowledgeable in the sector. OK, I'll start with a simple one.When I was in high school I learned that the Islamic holy book was the KORAN, spelled thus. I knew it wasn't really spelled that way, as it is an Arabic word, written in Arabic, but spelled phonetically with the Western alphabet for those of us who do not read Arabic. Well, my friend says there is not an explanation to that and it's because of the same motive that there is McDonald and MacDonald, McQuinn and McQueen, gasolene and gasoline, aluminium and aluminum and so on ;-) But now all of a sudden the transliteration has become QU'RAN. In my view, this is not nearly as straightforward as KORAN. Why the QU instead of the simpler and unambiguous K? And what's the deal with the apostrophe? Again no apparent reason: just the same motive why Peking became Beijing, Mao Tse-dun became Mao Ze-dong, Teng Hsiao-ping became Deng Xiao-ping, Bombay became Mumbay, Birmania became Burma, Rumania became Romania, Cambodja became Campuchea, Alma Ata became Almaty, Gruzia became Georgia... I suppose he wants to say there is not a linguistic reason for that. (my note: the apostrophe I believe is for a "dead" "h" between U and R, something like quHran, the H been almost silent. Probably that way it's nearer to the real pronunciation as Arabs pronounce it). So as to go back on the topic of coins, why are some unit coins of Arabic countries called RIALS while others are called RIYALS? Seems to me those two spellings represent identical sounds. Well, here my friends says that it only "seems" because in spoken language there is a difference between the two: rial is [ri-al], while riyal is [ri-yal]. He also says that there is a more appropriate ng for such questions with posters who are much more knowledgeable than him (he even used the expression "geniuses" :-)), that's sci.lang. -- E' mai possibile, oh porco di un cane, che le avventure in codesto reame debban risolversi tutte con grandi puttane! F.d.A Coins, travels and mo http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/golanule/my_photos http://gogu.enosi.org/index.html http://www.romclub.4t.com/rabin.html James |
#9
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"gogu" wrote in message ... I could help you James if it has something to do with Hungarian or with linguistics in general, though in a limited degree... Even if I can't help you I have a good friend who is quite knowledgeable in the sector. OK, I'll start with a simple one.When I was in high school I learned that the Islamic holy book was the KORAN, spelled thus. I knew it wasn't really spelled that way, as it is an Arabic word, written in Arabic, but spelled phonetically with the Western alphabet for those of us who do not read Arabic. Well, my friend says there is not an explanation to that and it's because of the same motive that there is McDonald and MacDonald, McQuinn and McQueen, gasolene and gasoline, aluminium and aluminum and so on ;-) I am not talking about issues that go back perhaps millennia, but recent arbitrary decisions by Americans writing for consumption by Americans and making things less clear as opposed to more clear. But now all of a sudden the transliteration has become QU'RAN. In my view, this is not nearly as straightforward as KORAN. Why the QU instead of the simpler and unambiguous K? And what's the deal with the apostrophe? Again no apparent reason: just the same motive why Peking became Beijing, Mao Tse-dun became Mao Ze-dong, Teng Hsiao-ping became Deng Xiao-ping, Bombay became Mumbay, Birmania became Burma, Rumania became Romania, Cambodja became Campuchea, Alma Ata became Almaty, Gruzia became Georgia... I suppose he wants to say there is not a linguistic reason for that. I always told my students that the change in the Chinese transliterations was due to increased knowledge of China after the Nixon years. For the first time many cartographers became aware that their printed geographical names were lacking in accuracy. (my note: the apostrophe I believe is for a "dead" "h" between U and R, something like quHran, the H been almost silent. Probably that way it's nearer to the real pronunciation as Arabs pronounce it). That certainly sounds plausible. The problem is, no one has ever given that explanation before. You're a pioneer, gogu! So as to go back on the topic of coins, why are some unit coins of Arabic countries called RIALS while others are called RIYALS? Seems to me those two spellings represent identical sounds. Well, here my friends says that it only "seems" because in spoken language there is a difference between the two: rial is [ri-al], while riyal is [ri-yal]. That gets into the topic of phonemes, and I doubt that the people at Krause have any notion of what that's all about, nor do 99.9% of their users. He also says that there is a more appropriate ng for such questions with posters who are much more knowledgeable than him (he even used the expression "geniuses" :-)), that's sci.lang. Thanks, I'll check that out. And thanks for taking the time to ask your friend and summarize your conversation here on rcc. James |
#10
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Mike...My thanks to you and all the others. I got the medal about 40 years
ago from an antique dealer who would go back every summer from Florida to Vienna. So how it was put with a box of duplicate coins and not seen the light of day since. I would still like to know who Muller was. Thanks TheDimeMan "Mike Marotta" wrote in message oups.com... Pretty good translation, there, Dime Man! Was that from Babblefish, or are you ... KELCZ GYULAK Kelcz family name, first name Gyulak First name Gyula = Julius. The k shows something grammatical. Hungarian is highly inflected: adessive, inessive, progressive, regressive, as well as the more common nominative, genitive, dative, accusative, vocative, and ablative known from Latin, Greek, Russian, etc. My guess is "From Julius Kelcz" but "To Julius Kelcz" (and the happy bride, of course) is also possible; see below. SZERENCSES Happy (lucky, fortunate) NASZNAPJUK ? NASZ = Wedding NAP = day juk (something grammatical? on, to, for ...) KEDVES = Dear, etc. EMLEKERE = medal, medallion (shares roots with "memory" words, but means medal or medallion) BUDAPESTEN ~en = In Budapest AJANLJA MULLER JOZSEF Presented by Joseph Muller, perhaps, unless you know that he was the engraver. (But can you PRONOUNCE it?? Szernecses would be transliterated into American as Sair-nech-esh or perhaps serneh-chesh... Reminding me of the GREEN ACRES where Lisa goes to college and the professor writes PSYCHE on the blackboard and Lisa says "p-shee-shee"...) Szervusz, Marotta Mihaly |
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