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Genuine vs. Original. Can you tell the difference?



 
 
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  #1  
Old April 16th 05, 10:32 PM
RW Julian
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Default Genuine vs. Original. Can you tell the difference?

The following Russian 1914 Gangut rouble on eBay is a fake:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...04192 44&rd=1

The seller has been reported on previous occasions, but eBay, as usual,
did nothing.
This time I am posting photos of the obverse and reverse of a genuine
Gangut rouble
on alt.binaries.pictures.numismatic.

I will be reporting this latest fake to ebay and those who can spot the
differences are
invited to do the same; in that way readers of rcc can see for
themselves if ebay does
anything about this crude fake. As this is not one of the better
counterfeits, most readers
should have little trouble in seeing several differences. One of these
fakes, however, is
reliably reported to have been sold to a Moscow collector for $3,000.
The genuine original
is a rare coin and one in proof condition just sold yesterday in a
Moscow auction for $9,000.

The seller of this fake also has two other Russian roubles for sale but
these are common and
appear to be genuine. He claims that the 1914 Gangut rouble comes from
his wife's
grandmother's estate, a nice touch but highly unlikely. He also notes
that all sales are final
and the coin cannot be returned.

RW Julian

Ads
  #2  
Old April 16th 05, 10:44 PM
RW Julian
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Posts: n/a
Default

Not my day. Meant to say "Genuine vs. Fake" on preceding post!!!!!

RW Julian wrote:

The following Russian 1914 Gangut rouble on eBay is a fake:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...04192 44&rd=1

The seller has been reported on previous occasions, but eBay, as
usual, did nothing.
This time I am posting photos of the obverse and reverse of a genuine
Gangut rouble
on alt.binaries.pictures.numismatic.

I will be reporting this latest fake to ebay and those who can spot
the differences are
invited to do the same; in that way readers of rcc can see for
themselves if ebay does
anything about this crude fake. As this is not one of the better
counterfeits, most readers
should have little trouble in seeing several differences. One of these
fakes, however, is
reliably reported to have been sold to a Moscow collector for $3,000.
The genuine original
is a rare coin and one in proof condition just sold yesterday in a
Moscow auction for $9,000.

The seller of this fake also has two other Russian roubles for sale
but these are common and
appear to be genuine. He claims that the 1914 Gangut rouble comes from
his wife's
grandmother's estate, a nice touch but highly unlikely. He also notes
that all sales are final
and the coin cannot be returned.

RW Julian


  #3  
Old April 16th 05, 11:53 PM
Bob Hairgrove
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Default

On Sat, 16 Apr 2005 16:44:25 -0500, RW Julian
wrote:

RW Julian wrote:

The following Russian 1914 Gangut rouble on eBay is a fake:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...04192 44&rd=1

The seller has been reported on previous occasions, but eBay, as
usual, did nothing.
This time I am posting photos of the obverse and reverse of a genuine
Gangut rouble
on alt.binaries.pictures.numismatic.


Sorry, I cannot get ABPN on my news server. But if you could quote the
Uzdenikov number here, I will look at the pictures there (I always
have trouble locating the commemoratives in Uzdenikov).

Another item sold by this seller seems to have been reported as fake
(look on www.toolhaus.org for the negs):

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=39580784 85

I was going to bid on his Alexander III 1883 Coronation rouble, but
now I shall definitely stay away.

--
Bob Hairgrove

  #4  
Old April 17th 05, 12:35 AM
Bob Hairgrove
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Default

On Sun, 17 Apr 2005 00:53:11 +0200, Bob Hairgrove
wrote:

On Sat, 16 Apr 2005 16:44:25 -0500, RW Julian
wrote:

RW Julian wrote:

The following Russian 1914 Gangut rouble on eBay is a fake:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...04192 44&rd=1

The seller has been reported on previous occasions, but eBay, as
usual, did nothing.
This time I am posting photos of the obverse and reverse of a genuine
Gangut rouble
on alt.binaries.pictures.numismatic.


Sorry, I cannot get ABPN on my news server. But if you could quote the
Uzdenikov number here, I will look at the pictures there (I always
have trouble locating the commemoratives in Uzdenikov).


Never mind, I found it (Uzd. 4202). It is a very poor fake, indeed.

--
Bob Hairgrove

  #5  
Old April 17th 05, 01:06 AM
James Higby
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Posts: n/a
Default


"RW Julian" wrote in message
...
The following Russian 1914 Gangut rouble on eBay is a fake:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...04192 44&rd=1


Bob, what's your take on the extent of counterfeit coins on eBay, especially
European crown-size coins? I have seen a few lately that make me wonder - a
high-grade Salzburg thaler, Albanian 5 frang ar, Italian 5 lire 1911 and
1914, etc. The ones I have seen look so good. IIRC the same fine folks who
brought us thousands of fake SVDBs in the 70s also faked many crowns of
Italy and related areas.

James


  #6  
Old April 17th 05, 02:04 AM
RW Julian
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Posts: n/a
Default

Actually, except for the Russian and U.S., I have little direct
knowledge. I do know that
it is not safe to buy Italian 5 lire pieces except from an expert but
this particular counterfeiting
has been going on for decades. If it is rare, and sold by an unknown
person, I would avoid it,
no matter which country is involved. In particular if it says "estate
sale," a private auction, or
the coin cannot be returned, the chances of fraud are certainly higher.

As to a general answer to this question, perhaps someone who specializes
in European crowns
could give us an idea of the extent of counterfeiting.

RWJ

James Higby wrote:

"RW Julian" wrote in message
...

The following Russian 1914 Gangut rouble on eBay is a fake:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...04192 44&rd=1


Bob, what's your take on the extent of counterfeit coins on eBay, especially
European crown-size coins? I have seen a few lately that make me wonder - a
high-grade Salzburg thaler, Albanian 5 frang ar, Italian 5 lire 1911 and
1914, etc. The ones I have seen look so good. IIRC the same fine folks who
brought us thousands of fake SVDBs in the 70s also faked many crowns of
Italy and related areas.

James



  #7  
Old April 17th 05, 02:51 AM
Alan Williams
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

James Higby wrote:

"RW Julian" wrote in message
...
The following Russian 1914 Gangut rouble on eBay is a fake:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...04192 44&rd=1


Bob, what's your take on the extent of counterfeit coins on eBay, especially
European crown-size coins? I have seen a few lately that make me wonder - a
high-grade Salzburg thaler, Albanian 5 frang ar, Italian 5 lire 1911 and
1914, etc. The ones I have seen look so good. IIRC the same fine folks who
brought us thousands of fake SVDBs in the 70s also faked many crowns of
Italy and related areas.

James


It's amazing what can be done with a out-of-production automobile
factory, ain't it! ;-)

Alan
'don't drive the Torino'
  #8  
Old April 17th 05, 09:29 AM
Bob Hairgrove
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Posts: n/a
Default

What is your opinion of this 1843 rouble? Is it also a fake?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=3965884501

I believe it is, but at least one dealer to whom I have pointed this
out thinks that it could possibly be genuine. Don't know why, though,
because just about everything, from the crummy letter shapes to the
crowns on the eagle reverse to the ribbon at the botom of the obverse
as well as to the relative distance between SPB and the date, is
wrong. It is certainly less obvious a fake than the one you have
shown, though.

--
Bob Hairgrove

  #9  
Old April 17th 05, 03:30 PM
Bob Hairgrove
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Posts: n/a
Default

On Sat, 16 Apr 2005 16:32:01 -0500, RW Julian
wrote:

The following Russian 1914 Gangut rouble on eBay is a fake:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...04192 44&rd=1

The seller has been reported on previous occasions, but eBay, as usual,
did nothing.
This time I am posting photos of the obverse and reverse of a genuine
Gangut rouble
on alt.binaries.pictures.numismatic.


Here is one which appears to be genuine:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=3969726097

Unfortunately, the seller ships only to Europe. But perhaps they would
make an exception if asked?

--
Bob Hairgrove

  #10  
Old April 17th 05, 09:16 PM
RW Julian
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Posts: n/a
Default

I have noticed this seller (v.kr.) selling Russian roubles on several
occasions and have
not seen anything questionable. The following piece, as you say, appears
to be genuine.
The current price is over 3,000 euros, a good indication of its value on
the current market.

For those who collect the Russian Imperial commemorative roubles, I am
of the opinion
that the 1912 Alexander III piece may be rarer than the 1914 Gangut but
the Gangut piece
has had a stronger fascination for collectors because of the association
with Peter the Great.

RWJ

Bob Hairgrove wrote:

On Sat, 16 Apr 2005 16:32:01 -0500, RW Julian
wrote:

The following Russian 1914 Gangut rouble on eBay is a fake:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...04192 44&rd=1

The seller has been reported on previous occasions, but eBay, as usual,
did nothing.
This time I am posting photos of the obverse and reverse of a genuine
Gangut rouble
on alt.binaries.pictures.numismatic.


Here is one which appears to be genuine:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=3969726097

Unfortunately, the seller ships only to Europe. But perhaps they would
make an exception if asked?

--
Bob Hairgrove



 




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