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Help: Rockola Sybaris 474
On Tue, 29 Jul 2003 23:04:11 -0400, "bele2009"
wrote: Hi Group, I working on my first juke, Rockola 474, original, non-restored condition. It has some minor issues I'll have to work on. However I'm having two weird problems I have no clue about. It may be a pinbank problem, but I'm not sure... The Read-Out carriage sometimes passes over some pins and make one or more turns before "finding" a pushed pin and stoping at this position. I suspected bad contacts, so I completely dismanteled the read-out carriage and cleaned all contacts very carefully. That did not take care of the problem. Then, I connected a continuity tester between the read-out contact and the chassis ground. It beeped when the carriage passed over the pins but the scanning does not always stop. I tried cleaning the faulty pins with some emery cloth and contact cleaner but it did not solve the problem either. The other problem is that sometimes, the scanning process stops too far and the whole mechanism is out of sync. The gripper arm does not land properly on the record and misses it completely. It seems the problem is worse on some selections than others but it's hard to tell. I also have the service manual, part list and schematic for my jukebox, if it may help Any idea please? Eric Eric: I suspect that the two problems you have are two manifestations of the same problem. I don't have a manual handy tonight, but as I recall, when the carriage makes contact with a flipped pin, the circuit is completed and braking current is applied to the magazine motor to stop it. There is a relay involved in this circuit that may not be energizing due to bad coil, no current (something wrong in circuit) or a bad A/B switch. Note that on one rotation, the carriage will only stop on the A side pins, and the next rotation it stop only on the B side pins. This is selected by the A/B switch (located near the magazine at the front of the mech frame - hidden underneath with a linkage that moves up and down based on a follower that runs in one of two groves in the magazine gear). If I recall properly, there is a good explanation with pictures in the service manual that shows all the components involved in every step of the operation. These pics also show hwere the components are located. First suggestion is check the A/B switch to make sure that there is a low resistance continuity on both A and B contacts - one contact activated on one rotation, the other on the next rotation.. If OK, check the applicable relay(s) to make sure they are operating properly and making complete circuits through the applicable contacts with low resistance. Hope this helps. Irwin |
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#2
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Hi,
I would like to thank the people who have helped me so far. Hope you can help once more with my Rockola 474. First, I received my service manual from VG last wek, but unfortunately it is for a Rock-ola 477 jukebox. I send it back for an exchange but I don't have it yet. In the mean time, I still have the Part List and schematic for the 474. I checked the A-B MicroSwicth and the contacts seem to be ok. I have less than 0.5 Ohms in both position. I inspected the D.C. Interlock relays and the gripper reversing relays in the control box and their contacts looked burned and very dirty. I completely dismanteled these relays and carefully cleaned and polished all contacts to a very nice shine. All contacts now have very low resistance when manually opererated. Then, I re-installed the control box in the juke-box and ran a test of about 20 selections. On 2 or 3 occasions, the magazine motor stopped too far; the gripper arm was positionned about midway between two records and missed the desired selection. Sometimes, the magazine does not stop as far and the gripper is still able to get the record, but then the solenoid lever on the Read-out carriage is positionned too far to push back the pin and clear the selection. I'm not sure I fully understand how the interlock relays work, and how the control box brakes the magazine motor, but I'm suspecting sometimes it fails to do the job. I also noticed that the whole Magazine-Read-out carriage assembly has a mechanical backlash of about 1/2 the space betwen two records. It is comming from the magazine motor gearbox, but I don't think this is a problem since the magazine motor never has to change direction. What can I do now ? Eric "HCV" wrote in message ... On Tue, 29 Jul 2003 23:04:11 -0400, "bele2009" wrote: Hi Group, I working on my first juke, Rockola 474, original, non-restored condition. It has some minor issues I'll have to work on. However I'm having two weird problems I have no clue about. It may be a pinbank problem, but I'm not sure... The Read-Out carriage sometimes passes over some pins and make one or more turns before "finding" a pushed pin and stoping at this position. I suspected bad contacts, so I completely dismanteled the read-out carriage and cleaned all contacts very carefully. That did not take care of the problem. Then, I connected a continuity tester between the read-out contact and the chassis ground. It beeped when the carriage passed over the pins but the scanning does not always stop. I tried cleaning the faulty pins with some emery cloth and contact cleaner but it did not solve the problem either. The other problem is that sometimes, the scanning process stops too far and the whole mechanism is out of sync. The gripper arm does not land properly on the record and misses it completely. It seems the problem is worse on some selections than others but it's hard to tell. I also have the service manual, part list and schematic for my jukebox, if it may help Any idea please? Eric Eric: I suspect that the two problems you have are two manifestations of the same problem. I don't have a manual handy tonight, but as I recall, when the carriage makes contact with a flipped pin, the circuit is completed and braking current is applied to the magazine motor to stop it. There is a relay involved in this circuit that may not be energizing due to bad coil, no current (something wrong in circuit) or a bad A/B switch. Note that on one rotation, the carriage will only stop on the A side pins, and the next rotation it stop only on the B side pins. This is selected by the A/B switch (located near the magazine at the front of the mech frame - hidden underneath with a linkage that moves up and down based on a follower that runs in one of two groves in the magazine gear). If I recall properly, there is a good explanation with pictures in the service manual that shows all the components involved in every step of the operation. These pics also show hwere the components are located. First suggestion is check the A/B switch to make sure that there is a low resistance continuity on both A and B contacts - one contact activated on one rotation, the other on the next rotation.. If OK, check the applicable relay(s) to make sure they are operating properly and making complete circuits through the applicable contacts with low resistance. Hope this helps. Irwin |
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Eric:
I believe that the backlash you mention is more than desired, but I don't know if Rockola actually had a spec for this. One thing that may be required is to time the mechanism. This involves adjusting the readout arm to line up with the pin at the proper postion so the gripper will pick up the record properly. The manual shows this procedure fairly well. There is an adjustment screw near the hub of the readout arm that adjusts the arm (spring loaded) against the hub. There should be a molded in mark on the plastic read out carriage that is supposed to line up with the pin(s) when the adjustment is correct. Hope this helps. Irwin On Sun, 3 Aug 2003 10:25:57 -0400, "bele2009" wrote: Hi, I would like to thank the people who have helped me so far. Hope you can help once more with my Rockola 474. First, I received my service manual from VG last wek, but unfortunately it is for a Rock-ola 477 jukebox. I send it back for an exchange but I don't have it yet. In the mean time, I still have the Part List and schematic for the 474. I checked the A-B MicroSwicth and the contacts seem to be ok. I have less than 0.5 Ohms in both position. I inspected the D.C. Interlock relays and the gripper reversing relays in the control box and their contacts looked burned and very dirty. I completely dismanteled these relays and carefully cleaned and polished all contacts to a very nice shine. All contacts now have very low resistance when manually opererated. Then, I re-installed the control box in the juke-box and ran a test of about 20 selections. On 2 or 3 occasions, the magazine motor stopped too far; the gripper arm was positionned about midway between two records and missed the desired selection. Sometimes, the magazine does not stop as far and the gripper is still able to get the record, but then the solenoid lever on the Read-out carriage is positionned too far to push back the pin and clear the selection. I'm not sure I fully understand how the interlock relays work, and how the control box brakes the magazine motor, but I'm suspecting sometimes it fails to do the job. I also noticed that the whole Magazine-Read-out carriage assembly has a mechanical backlash of about 1/2 the space betwen two records. It is comming from the magazine motor gearbox, but I don't think this is a problem since the magazine motor never has to change direction. What can I do now ? Eric "HCV" wrote in message .. . On Tue, 29 Jul 2003 23:04:11 -0400, "bele2009" wrote: Hi Group, I working on my first juke, Rockola 474, original, non-restored condition. It has some minor issues I'll have to work on. However I'm having two weird problems I have no clue about. It may be a pinbank problem, but I'm not sure... The Read-Out carriage sometimes passes over some pins and make one or more turns before "finding" a pushed pin and stoping at this position. I suspected bad contacts, so I completely dismanteled the read-out carriage and cleaned all contacts very carefully. That did not take care of the problem. Then, I connected a continuity tester between the read-out contact and the chassis ground. It beeped when the carriage passed over the pins but the scanning does not always stop. I tried cleaning the faulty pins with some emery cloth and contact cleaner but it did not solve the problem either. The other problem is that sometimes, the scanning process stops too far and the whole mechanism is out of sync. The gripper arm does not land properly on the record and misses it completely. It seems the problem is worse on some selections than others but it's hard to tell. I also have the service manual, part list and schematic for my jukebox, if it may help Any idea please? Eric Eric: I suspect that the two problems you have are two manifestations of the same problem. I don't have a manual handy tonight, but as I recall, when the carriage makes contact with a flipped pin, the circuit is completed and braking current is applied to the magazine motor to stop it. There is a relay involved in this circuit that may not be energizing due to bad coil, no current (something wrong in circuit) or a bad A/B switch. Note that on one rotation, the carriage will only stop on the A side pins, and the next rotation it stop only on the B side pins. This is selected by the A/B switch (located near the magazine at the front of the mech frame - hidden underneath with a linkage that moves up and down based on a follower that runs in one of two groves in the magazine gear). If I recall properly, there is a good explanation with pictures in the service manual that shows all the components involved in every step of the operation. These pics also show hwere the components are located. First suggestion is check the A/B switch to make sure that there is a low resistance continuity on both A and B contacts - one contact activated on one rotation, the other on the next rotation.. If OK, check the applicable relay(s) to make sure they are operating properly and making complete circuits through the applicable contacts with low resistance. Hope this helps. Irwin |
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bele2009 wrote:
I also noticed that the whole Magazine-Read-out carriage assembly has a mechanical backlash of about 1/2 the space betwen two records. It is comming from the magazine motor gearbox, but I don't think this is a problem since the magazine motor never has to change direction. That is way too much backlash/play. The motor that drives it is held in place with three bolts, and the holes in the motor base are elongated to allow for adjustment. Realign the motor so you have as little backlash as possible, without having the gears mesh too tightly. You should get down to under 1/4 inch of play. Also be sure the record magazine is full of records, or at least, the records are spaced evenly. A half full carriage with backlash can certainly cause that problem as the weight of the records in one position causes it to travel too far, or the opposite when the weight of the records are at the other end as it stops. Also, on the search arm there is an adjustment to align it with the carriage. If needed, make that adjustment after getting rid of the extra play. It's just a bolt that advances or retards the search arm. Just push the search arm ahead a little and let it go back. You should see the end of the bolt that stops it to where it is adjusted. -- Tony |
#5
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Thanks folks!
I finally found the problem. In fact it was two problems: 1) The #2 Outer Cam Switch on the gripper arm was not closing properly, so the braking action on the magazine motor was not there. I readjusted the switch. Wow! I'm impressed how fast the magazine stops now! I think this switch is also used to supply power to the gripper motor circuit, because since I readjusted it, the gripped arm moves much faster and smoother. However, my jukebox was still missing records now and then. I decided to take a look at the backlash I had on the record magazine. I found that the end cap / stopper of the magazine motor gearbox was missing. The motor armature was then free to move back and forth inside the gearbox. The missing cap was lying around on the bottom of the cabinet. I reinstalled it and voila! No more backlash (ok, maybe 3/16 to 1/4" at most). I then realligned the read-out arm as suggested. The scanning now works and stops perfectly, everytimes. I still have to clean the pinbank and a lot of things, but for now, I'm impressed how well it works. This group is great! Eric "Tony Miklos" wrote in message ... bele2009 wrote: I also noticed that the whole Magazine-Read-out carriage assembly has a mechanical backlash of about 1/2 the space betwen two records. It is comming from the magazine motor gearbox, but I don't think this is a problem since the magazine motor never has to change direction. That is way too much backlash/play. The motor that drives it is held in place with three bolts, and the holes in the motor base are elongated to allow for adjustment. Realign the motor so you have as little backlash as possible, without having the gears mesh too tightly. You should get down to under 1/4 inch of play. Also be sure the record magazine is full of records, or at least, the records are spaced evenly. A half full carriage with backlash can certainly cause that problem as the weight of the records in one position causes it to travel too far, or the opposite when the weight of the records are at the other end as it stops. Also, on the search arm there is an adjustment to align it with the carriage. If needed, make that adjustment after getting rid of the extra play. It's just a bolt that advances or retards the search arm. Just push the search arm ahead a little and let it go back. You should see the end of the bolt that stops it to where it is adjusted. -- Tony |
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bele2009 wrote:
Thanks folks! I finally found the problem. In fact it was two problems: 1) The #2 Outer Cam Switch on the gripper arm was not closing properly, so the braking action on the magazine motor was not there. I readjusted the switch. Wow! I'm impressed how fast the magazine stops now! I think this switch is also used to supply power to the gripper motor circuit, because since I readjusted it, the gripped arm moves much faster and smoother. However, my jukebox was still missing records now and then. I decided to take a look at the backlash I had on the record magazine. I found that the end cap / stopper of the magazine motor gearbox was missing. The motor armature was then free to move back and forth inside the gearbox. LOL! Yes, that will give it some play! Glad you found the problems. -- Tony The missing cap was lying around on the bottom of the cabinet. I reinstalled it and voila! No more backlash (ok, maybe 3/16 to 1/4" at most). I then realligned the read-out arm as suggested. The scanning now works and stops perfectly, everytimes. I still have to clean the pinbank and a lot of things, but for now, I'm impressed how well it works. This group is great! Eric |
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On Thu, 7 Aug 2003 09:56:32 -0400, "bele2009"
wrote: The scanning now works and stops perfectly, everytimes. I still have to clean the pinbank and a lot of things, but for now, I'm impressed how well it works. For what it's worth: I've fixed lots of Rockola's of that era, and I've never had to clean (or do anything else) to the pinbank itself. On fifties AMi's and Rockola's the selection pins get gummed up and need to be cleaned, but the later Rockola design is pretty much maintenance-free. Now the wipers and wiper contacts are a different story. Those cause lots of trouble and need to be cleaned. That may be what you meant anyway. I just got a mental picture of you trying to disassemble and clean out the pinbank assembly, and it sent a chill down my spine. |
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Don't worry, I wont be dismanteling the pinbank. I played my jukebox all
weekend and it was flawless. However, the contacts on the read-out arms looks a bit worn and I already ordered some replacements from VG. I suppose after more than 86000 plays on my machine counter, the contacts need a rest ! Eric "Russel Willoughby" wrote in message ... On Thu, 7 Aug 2003 09:56:32 -0400, "bele2009" wrote: The scanning now works and stops perfectly, everytimes. I still have to clean the pinbank and a lot of things, but for now, I'm impressed how well it works. For what it's worth: I've fixed lots of Rockola's of that era, and I've never had to clean (or do anything else) to the pinbank itself. On fifties AMi's and Rockola's the selection pins get gummed up and need to be cleaned, but the later Rockola design is pretty much maintenance-free. Now the wipers and wiper contacts are a different story. Those cause lots of trouble and need to be cleaned. That may be what you meant anyway. I just got a mental picture of you trying to disassemble and clean out the pinbank assembly, and it sent a chill down my spine. |
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True, I never tought of that , but you are probably right. I wish the had
put another digits to these counters... Eric "ThomasTeeter" wrote in message om... That machine counter isn't going to be accurate unless this jukebox was used in a VERY SLOW location for only a couple years. This counter has more than likely "rolled over" half a dozen times or better, meaning your juke probably has well over half a million plays, and probably closer to a million. I have CD jukeboxes currently on route that have well over 500,000 plays on the meter (and your Rockola 474 is WAY OVER 20 years older than these jukeboxes... The 474 is one of my favorite Rockola jukes outside some of the 50's Rockolas. Nice looking box... Thomas E-mail: thomasteeter(at)budweiser.com "bele2009" wrote in message ... Don't worry, I wont be dismanteling the pinbank. I played my jukebox all weekend and it was flawless. However, the contacts on the read-out arms looks a bit worn and I already ordered some replacements from VG. I suppose after more than 86000 plays on my machine counter, the contacts need a rest ! |
#10
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"bele2009" wrote in message ...
True, I never tought of that , but you are probably right. I wish the had put another digits to these counters... I don't think Rockola ever came out with a six digit counter. At least Rowe had enough sense to do this at least in models R84+ (perhaps even earlier). The reason I even first brought this to your attention was a model 474 that I was asked to shop out about 12 years ago. I happened to have the video arcade games at this location and I gladly obliged. Gave them an identical juke as a loaner while I worked on theirs. This location had originally bought this jukebox new, and the pricing was set at ELEVEN plays for a dollar. I suggested and asked them if they wanted to me to reprice it at the going rate back then- about 1 play per quarter/ or 7 plays for a dollar (maybe it was 5 plays for a dollar)- and they acted as if I was COMPLETELY NUTS! In fact they wanted me to give MORE music for the dollar if possible.... About 2 years later I finally convinced them to "try" one of my CD jukeboxes. I promised that they would make more money than they were making with their current jukebox giving them only 40% of the receipts from my CD juke. My jukebox was priced at ONLY 4 plays for a dollar or 9 plays for 2 dollars (cheaper than the recommended 3 plays for a dollar). If I failed, I told them I'd give them the difference of their lost revenues plus ten percent and take my jukebox back home with me after three months. Needless to say I operated a CD juke there for the next nine years until they decided to buy their own. Got off track, but at any rate, it doesn't take much to flip that play meter over when you are giving ELEVEN plays for a dollar.... Thomas thomasteeter(at)budweiser.com |
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