Old Books

I am looking at acquiring a copy of Shakespeare's Third Folio.

The problem (as with most Folios) is imperfections. In this case, about 4%
of the leaves are facsimile, and about 6% come from another volume of the
Folio.

Most of the facsimile pages are in the prefatory material (and this doesn't
seem to be exceptional). Likewise, I've seen other editions with a leaf or
two that has been replaced. However, as we approach 10% total replacement
pages, I'm not sure that what I'd be getting can even be fairly classified
as a complete Folio.

Any thoughts?

On Tue, 02 Nov 2004 20:33:54 GMT, "Ken_Prospero"
wrote:

However, as we approach 10% total replacement
pages, I'm not sure that what I'd be getting can even be fairly classified
as a complete Folio.

You don't own books like that, you just look after them for a few
years.

Who cares how much is original ? Some of it is, none of it's as easy
to read as a modern text, any copy of it is irreplaceable. You have to
judge each volume on its own merits, and weight whatever notion of
"value" you care to use according to the amount of originality. But
for a book of this stature, there's a level where it will always have
value as an artefact, just from any original content. Only if you take
such a cold-heartedly quantitative analysis as selling it, or trading
it for another similar copy, does the real "measure" come into play.
For anything else it's a fuzzy logic problem - you know there's a
theoretical gradation to its value, but you choose never to collapse
the wave function and really judge it -- in the meantime you just
accept it as having value, for whatever it is.

What kind of facsimile are you talking about? A simple modern photocopy
on cheap modern paper? Or is it the kind of sheets that would be
inserted by the "brothers" in Perez-Reverte's "The Club Dumas", who
would use only matching paper from the era of the original, would
painstakingly recreate the image with ink made from the same materials
as the original and using wood printing blocks copying the defects of
the original blocks? Or is it somewhere in between these extremes?

Francis A. Miniter


Ken_Prospero wrote:

I am looking at acquiring a copy of Shakespeare's Third Folio.

The problem (as with most Folios) is imperfections. In this case, about 4%
of the leaves are facsimile, and about 6% come from another volume of the
Folio.

Most of the facsimile pages are in the prefatory material (and this doesn't
seem to be exceptional). Likewise, I've seen other editions with a leaf or
two that has been replaced. However, as we approach 10% total replacement
pages, I'm not sure that what I'd be getting can even be fairly classified
as a complete Folio.

Any thoughts?

Michael/Andy

I think the two of you frame my ambivelence very well.

As Michael points out. It's not complete. Likewise, I agree, you get what
you pay for (if you're lucky) -- in this case, the dealer is reputable, and
the price certainly more closely reflects the market price 'per play' as
opposed to what I'd expect to pay for an unblemished folio.

As Andy points out, there is historical significance to a fragment, and due
to what it is, it's certainly worth saving.

So, from all accounts, we're talking about a book with a major defect.
There's a market for books with defects, even in the contemporary market.
(In contemporary books, a First Edition with the price clipped out of the
dust Jacket, or missing the dust Jacket, is still a first edition, abeit one
with a major defect).Where I disagree (from a personal point of view, not
anything technically) with Michael is whether a Folio missing a leaf or two
is still a Folio. With older books, I've read/been told that there's more
of an acceptance of defects, even major ones, because of the
rarity/historical significance of the item involved. (If I'm incorrect here,
then Michael has answered my question) .

Now, the question I'm trying to get at is the following. I'm willing to
accept that almost any Folio that I'm likely to be able to afford will have
major defects, and probably some replacement leaves. I'm even willing to
consider this a "Folio". However, when you get to missing pages being 10%
of the total, is this just too much. (I recognize that it's ultimately a
personal call, but am interested in what others think, and whether they
would consider something like this for their own collections).

Francis:

I suspect it's somewhere in between. But wouldn't know until I actually
handle the book (I'd get it on approval obviously, and am talking with an
ABAA dealer, so I don't think this is likely to be the problem.
"michael adams" wrote in message
...

now with added "first thus"


"Ken_Prospero" wrote in message
et...

I am looking at acquiring a copy of Shakespeare's Third Folio.

The problem (as with most Folios) is imperfections. In this case, about
4%
of the leaves are facsimile, and about 6% come from another volume of
the
Folio.

Most of the facsimile pages are in the prefatory material (and this
doesn't
seem to be exceptional). Likewise, I've seen other editions with a leaf
or
two that has been replaced. However, as we approach 10% total
replacement
pages, I'm not sure that what I'd be getting can even be fairly
classified
as a complete Folio.

Any thoughts?

...

If even one page is a facsimile or a replacement taken from presumably
the Fifth Folio of 1700, then you're not getting a complete original
Third Folio

Whereas if every page is a facsimile of the third Folio you're still
getting
a complete Folio of facsimiles.

There's no such thing as "almost a Folio" or to quote Madonna "Like a
Folio". Either it is, or it isn't.

Basically you get what you pay for. But don't fool yourself into
thinking you're getting any more.

Although given the additional material which first appeared in the
Third Folio you can at least be sure that the work is a "first thus".
Which may come as some consolation I suppose. [This is a reference to
a topic which is current in another thread]

What precisely is your question again ?


michael adams

...

I'm sorry what market price "per play" are you referring to here? Extracted
plays from Third Folio as advertised by ABAA (or UK equivalent) booksellers.
Many are advertised on the Internet.

For which particular quarto editions of which plays ? As above, extracted
quartos not Quartos.

And as a matter of interest what is the actual price you're being asked for
this copy?

I'm not sure it's appropriate to communicate specific prices for specific
books in this forum (is there a FAQ?). However, if you email me, I'll share
the information with you.

"michael adams" wrote in message
...

"Ken_Prospero" wrote in message
t...
Michael/Andy

I think the two of you frame my ambivelence very well.

As Michael points out. It's not complete. Likewise, I agree, you
get what you pay for (if you're lucky) -- in this case, the dealer is
reputable, and the price certainly more closely reflects the market
price 'per play' as opposed to what I'd expect to pay for an
unblemished folio.

...

I'm sorry what market price "per play" are you referring to here?

For which particular quarto editions of which plays ?

And as a matter of interest what is the actual price you're being
asked for this copy?

...



As Andy points out, there is historical significance to a fragment,
and due to what it is, it's certainly worth saving.

So, from all accounts, we're talking about a book with a major
defect. There's a market for books with defects, even in the
contemporary market. (In contemporary books, a First Edition with
the price clipped out of the dust Jacket, or missing the dust Jacket,
is still a first edition, abeit one with a major defect).Where I
disagree (from a personal point of view, not anything technically)
with Michael is whether a Folio missing a leaf or two is still a
Folio.

...

Strictly speaking, one full size sheet of paper folded once and bound
up as a book would be a Folio. Speaking more loosely the term "folio"
refers to the size of the book - but again based on the size of a sheet
of paper folded once.

You're not being very clear in explaining precisely what it is you're
referring to with these references to "Folio" here.

...

Now, the question I'm trying to get at is the following. I'm willing
to accept that almost any Folio that I'm likely to be able to afford
will have major defects, and probably some replacement leaves. I'm
even willing to consider this a "Folio".

...

It isn't altogether clear how it couldn't be.

...

However, when you get to missing pages being 10% of the total, is this
just too much. (I recognize that it's ultimately a personal call, but
am interested in what others think, and whether they would consider
something like this for their own collections).

...

Speaking only for myself I would need to know the price of the
item before even considering such a question.

Because I would happily entertain any number of damaged and
incomplete but otherwise "significant" books, if I could obtain
them cheaply enough. And all this despite the fact that I've never
sold a book in my life and don't intend to. Yet knowing the price
before deciding on a purchase is still important nevertheless.



michael adams

...

Links.

www.abebooks.com or www.abaa.org

Use the advanced search: Author: Shakespeare, Key Word: Folio Date
Befo 1700

Breaking up Folios

I had a long talk with one bookseller about this. Apparantly it's usually
done where the amount missing is so great that the bookseller doesn't think
it would sell as a whole. My guess is that some less scrupulous dealers do
it if the price for the individual plays is greater than the value for the
whole.

Others go so far as to sell individual leafs. (1 leaf from each folio goes
in the $2500-4000 range)

The alternative that some sellers have come up with is what I'm looking
at -- if you can find enough odd pages to make a composite volume.

Price being asked for Item I'm looking at: $45,000

"michael adams" wrote in message
...

"Ken_Prospero" wrote in message
et...
I'm sorry what market price "per play" are you referring to here?


Extracted plays from Third Folio as advertised by ABAA (or UK
equivalent)
booksellers. Many are advertised on the Internet.

For which particular quarto editions of which plays ? As above,
extracted
quartos not Quartos.

...

So you're talking about Third Folios which have been broken up into
individual plays.

I wasn't aware that this was happening, or had happened to any great
extent as I can't imagine why anyone would want to do such a thing.

As you haven't left a link to any specific items, I suppose we'll
have to leave it at that.

...


And as a matter of interest what is the actual price you're being asked
for
this copy?

I'm not sure it's appropriate to communicate specific prices for
specific books in this forum (is there a FAQ?). However, if you
email me, I'll share the information with you.

...

There's no reason at all why you can't mention the price. The prices
of books are mentioned all the time on here - they are a staple subject
of "brags". Providing that is, the motive for so doing isn't overtly
commercial, but simply to provide information or diversion. While for
the same reason, there's no objection to your posting a link to the
item in question, providing you don't stand to benefit directly from
so doing. Which you won't.

As to emails, I'm sure I'm not the only reader of this NewsGroup who'd
be interested in knowing the kinds of prices being asked for such items.


michael adams

...

Ken,

I'm glad to see you're still adding to your Shakespeare Collection. If
I were to have $45,000 to spare, I would consider acquiring this third
folio myself, facsimiles and all.

At the Christie's sale of the Library of Abel E. Berland, in October,
2001, it was estimated that Lot 102, a third folio, would sell for
between $200,000 and $300,000. It sold for $556,000.

At the Christie's sale of the Estate of Mary, Viscountess Eccles, in
April, 2004, it was estimated that Lot 92, a third folio, would sell for
between $150,000 and $250,000. It sold for $623,500.


My thoughts? You ain't bought it yet?

Cheers,
Jerry Morris


Ken_Prospero) wrote:
I am looking at acquiring a copy of Shakespeare's Third Folio.
The problem (as with most Folios) is imperfections. In this case, about
4% of the leaves are facsimile, and about 6% come from another volume of
the Folio.
Most of the facsimile pages are in the prefatory material (and this
doesn't seem to be exceptional). Likewise, I've seen other editions with
a leaf or two that has been replaced. However, as we approach 10% total
replacement pages, I'm not sure that what I'd be getting can even be
fairly classified as a complete Folio.
Any thoughts?


Welcome to Moi's Books About Books: http://www.tinyurl.com/hib7
My Sentimental Library http://www.picturetrail.com/mylibrary and
moislibrary.com http://www.tinyurl.com/hisn

Wouldn't be the William Tyndale translation would it?

Francis A. Miniter


Charles Fremont wrote:

I have one of the first bibles ever published in England. It's a
monstrosity, called the Great Bible, published in London in 1539 completely
intact. Any ideas on what this would bring on today's market?

"Charles Fremont" wrote in message
...
I have one of the first bibles ever published in England. It's a
monstrosity, called the Great Bible, published in London in 1539
completely
intact. Any ideas on what this would bring on today's market?

I have a 1st edition, 1st state bible. Author: God.
What's it worth?


--
Bob Finnan
The Hardy Boys Unofficial Home Page
http://hardyboys.bobfinnan.com

In article , "Bob"
wrote:

"Charles Fremont" wrote in message
...
I have one of the first bibles ever published in England. It's a
monstrosity, called the Great Bible, published in London in 1539
completely
intact. Any ideas on what this would bring on today's market?

I have a 1st edition, 1st state bible. Author: God.
What's it worth?

Depends on the condition. I'd heard there was only one copy carved in
stone, but that it got broken.

If it's still in the box the pieces were thereafter kept in, the box is
worth something.

-paghat the ratgirl

--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
Visit the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com