What would you have done?

I was at an antique auction yesterday and during the lot viewing time overheard
the following conversation:

"Do you want to be in a pool?"

"Sure"

"Meet at the table in the back where the woman is sitting"

I know that pools exist at auctions but I've never seen or heard something
so brazen as this. Should I have told the auctioneer what I heard or just
mind my own business and keep my mouth shut? In the end I did nothing
since I didn't know what to do.

(P.S. no, I didn't consider asking to join their auction pool).

JSTONE9352 wrote:
I didn't consider asking to join their auction pool

I guess I've led a sheltered life for these six decades. Fill me in on
what an auction pool is. I don't think I've ever heard of the concept of
such.

-=LDL

I guess I've led a sheltered life for these six decades. Fill me in on
what an auction pool is. I don't think I've ever heard of the concept of
such.

-=LDL

Ditto .....

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Jason Craton ---- CONECA N-3407 --- WINS #5
---------------------------
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http://www.error-coins.com - A work in progress (lack of progress
really).

From: "Larry Louks"

I guess I've led a sheltered life for these six decades. Fill me in on
what an auction pool is.

Okay. Working term here is "shill bids".

Let's say you take your 1995-W SAE to an auction. There you meet up with me, I
have a 1988-A F* WebNote. I say:

"Look, me and the guy with the 3-legged Buffalo nickel got an arrangement; I
shill-bid his, he does same to mine, to increase the price. With three of us,
it won't be so obvious."

.... and so on.

8-/


Coin Saver

ojunk (Coin Saver) wrote:

From: "Larry Louks"

I guess I've led a sheltered life for these six decades. Fill me in on
what an auction pool is.

Okay. Working term here is "shill bids".

I don't believe this is true at all....in fact I think it is the opposite of
shill bidding.

If I remember correctly a "pool" is a group of bidders who agree to keep the
bids low by not bidding against each other.



++++++++++
Phil DeMayo - always here for my fellow Stooge
When bidding online always sit on your helmet
Just say NO to counterfeits

"Larry Louks" wrote in message news:hysob.54380$9E1.242603@attbi_s52...
JSTONE9352 wrote:
I didn't consider asking to join their auction pool

I guess I've led a sheltered life for these six decades. Fill me in on
what an auction pool is. I don't think I've ever heard of the concept of
such.

-=LDL


It is when a group of dealers or collectors get together at an auction
and
agree not to bid against each other on certain items in order to get
them at
a lower price. In some auctions there could be several pools
operating that are unknown to the other. It is illegal in every
state. It is something that is not
widely talked about in numismatic circles but it does go on. Years
ago several
dealers got heavy fines ranging from $50,000-$120,000 for being in an
auction
pool at a Christie's auction. A dealer once told me he was in a pool
at the
auction at the Memphis Paper Money Show. He didn't use the word pool
but..."I got together with ______ and ______ and we agreed not to
bid against each other"

"John Stone" wrote in message


It is when a group of dealers or collectors get together at an auction
and
agree not to bid against each other on certain items in order to get
them at
a lower price.

Okay that explained, if you had complained I would have imagined you would
have had the burden of proof. It is a definate grey area, how can you tell
people they cannot agree to outbid one another on an item? What if they
have a first see first bid agreement?

Hard call because it all comes in proving that they had such an agreement.

Dave


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Phil,isn't that called collusion and price fixing?

Mike

"Phil DeMayo" wrote in message
...
ojunk (Coin Saver) wrote:

From: "Larry Louks"

I guess I've led a sheltered life for these six decades. Fill me in
on
what an auction pool is.

Okay. Working term here is "shill bids".

I don't believe this is true at all....in fact I think it is the opposite
of
shill bidding.

If I remember correctly a "pool" is a group of bidders who agree to keep
the
bids low by not bidding against each other.



++++++++++
Phil DeMayo - always here for my fellow Stooge
When bidding online always sit on your helmet
Just say NO to counterfeits

Okay that explained, if you had complained I would have imagined you would
have had the burden of proof. It is a definate grey area, how can you tell
people they cannot agree to outbid one another on an item? What if they
have a first see first bid agreement?

Hard call because it all comes in proving that they had such an agreement.

Dave


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.530 / Virus Database: 325 - Release Date: 10/22/03

A pool would probably be hard to prove. Most likely there is nothing in
writing between the pool particpants. It would
probably be a matter of overheard conversations, the auction company becoming
suspicious and sending
someone undercover with a tape recorder
during the auction and try to get some
evidence etc. It took several years for
the authorities to put together the case
against the dealers at the Christie's
auction. How they put the case together was never revealed.

On Fri, 31 Oct 2003 12:26:53 GMT, "Larry Louks"
wrote:

JSTONE9352 wrote:
I didn't consider asking to join their auction pool

I guess I've led a sheltered life for these six decades. Fill me in on
what an auction pool is. I don't think I've ever heard of the concept of
such.

-=LDL



A pool works like this. A group of bidders get together and make a master
list of what lots they want to buy and how much they are willing to pay.
They then bid as if they are a single bidder against the rest of the crowd.
This lowers bids dramatically, especially on items where two of the pool
would have had a bidding war. This usually works best on bulk collection
lots that are only of interest to dealers. After the auction, the lots won
by the pool are distributed based upon the difference between pool member's
competing bids, or by closed auction.

For example, if I was willing to pay $50K for a collection and That Damn
Krummel was willing to pay $75K it would have sold for to $51K to Bill at
real auction. Assume that by me sitting on my hands in the pool that is
sells to our bidder at $35K. I just saved Bill $16K by being in the pool.
In return, he supplies me with either a cash kickback or saleable material.

What happened several years ago at stamp auctions was very sophisticated in
that many major lot-splitters got involved together in a pool and material
was selling for only 10-20% of true cash value.


BLReed

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