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Help Identifying Syriac? Work 16th/17th Century? (0/1)
Hello,
I have recently discovered a book titled 'Rudi Syri' at the bottom of a box of junk purchased at local auction. However I have no idea what the work is about or its age and was hoping that someone here would be able to help with the identification. The book appears to be in a 16/17th century vellum binding and has the ink title 'Rudi Syri' on the spine. There is a printers device (see photo) but other than that there are no other clues. Any help would be much appreciated. Sorry if uploading images breaks the rules but I don't know how else to describe the book! |
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#2
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Help Identifying Syriac? Work 16th/17th Century? (0/1)
On Sun, 04 Dec 2005 17:45:48 +0000, TIA
wrote: Hello, I have recently discovered a book titled 'Rudi Syri' at the bottom of a box of junk purchased at local auction. However I have no idea what the work is about or its age and was hoping that someone here would be able to help with the identification. The book appears to be in a 16/17th century vellum binding and has the ink title 'Rudi Syri' on the spine. There is a printers device (see photo) but other than that there are no other clues. Any help would be much appreciated. Sorry if uploading images breaks the rules but I don't know how else to describe the book! Oh well, it looks like the images have not been uploaded! You can see them at : http://www.katyandjason.co.uk/Image1.jpg http://www.katyandjason.co.uk/Image2.jpg Thanks |
#3
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Help Identifying Syriac? Work 16th/17th Century? (0/1)
"TIA" wrote in message ... On Sun, 04 Dec 2005 17:45:48 +0000, TIA wrote: Hello, I have recently discovered a book titled 'Rudi Syri' at the bottom of a box of junk purchased at local auction. However I have no idea what the work is about or its age and was hoping that someone here would be able to help with the identification. The book appears to be in a 16/17th century vellum binding and has the ink title 'Rudi Syri' on the spine. There is a printers device (see photo) but other than that there are no other clues. Any help would be much appreciated. Sorry if uploading images breaks the rules but I don't know how else to describe the book! Oh well, it looks like the images have not been uploaded! You can see them at : http://www.katyandjason.co.uk/Image1.jpg http://www.katyandjason.co.uk/Image2.jpg Thanks The illustration is of the Virgin and Child so the book is presumably Christian. If without any Western alphabet At a guess Rudi[ments] of Syri[ac] Such an informal title may simply indicate that the contents represent a sample of printed Arameic. Syriac being Arameic, the dialect of the Syrian Christians as they became, which is of liturgical significance as possibly being the language of Christ. The bookworms were presumably atheists. michael adams .... |
#4
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Help Identifying Syriac? Work 16th/17th Century? (0/1)
"TIA" wrote in message
... On Sun, 04 Dec 2005 17:45:48 +0000, TIA wrote: Hello, I have recently discovered a book titled 'Rudi Syri' at the bottom of a box of junk purchased at local auction. However I have no idea what the work is about or its age and was hoping that someone here would be able to help with the identification. The book appears to be in a 16/17th century vellum binding and has the ink title 'Rudi Syri' on the spine. There is a printers device (see photo) but other than that there are no other clues. Any help would be much appreciated. Sorry if uploading images breaks the rules but I don't know how else to describe the book! Oh well, it looks like the images have not been uploaded! You can see them at : http://www.katyandjason.co.uk/Image1.jpg http://www.katyandjason.co.uk/Image2.jpg Thanks The illustration is of the Virgin and Child so the book is presumably Christian. If without any Western alphabet At a guess Rudi[ments] of Syri[ac] Such an informal title may simply indicate that the contents represent a sample of printed Arameic. .... "TIA" wrote in message ... On Sun, 04 Dec 2005 17:45:48 +0000, TIA wrote: Hello, I have recently discovered a book titled 'Rudi Syri' at the bottom of a box of junk purchased at local auction. However I have no idea what the work is about or its age and was hoping that someone here would be able to help with the identification. The book appears to be in a 16/17th century vellum binding and has the ink title 'Rudi Syri' on the spine. There is a printers device (see photo) but other than that there are no other clues. Any help would be much appreciated. Sorry if uploading images breaks the rules but I don't know how else to describe the book! Oh well, it looks like the images have not been uploaded! You can see them at : http://www.katyandjason.co.uk/Image1.jpg http://www.katyandjason.co.uk/Image2.jpg Thanks The illustration is of the Virgin and Child so the book is presumably Christian. If without any Western alphabet At a guess Rudi[ments] of Syri[ac] Such an informal title may simply indicate that the contents represent a sample of printed Arameic. Follow Up: Rudimantary was the name given to a class in Roman Catholic Schools, Colleges, or Seminaries, above Figures and Below Latin in Jesuit Schools. So possibly this was a text for use in the Rudimentary Class in Syriac. The bookworms were presumably atheists. michael adams .... Syriac being Arameic, the dialect of the Syrian Christians as they became, which is of liturgical significance as possibly being the language of Christ. The bookworms were presumably atheists. michael adams .... |
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Help Identifying Syriac? Work 16th/17th Century? (0/1)
The illustration is of the Virgin and Child so the book is presumably
Christian. If without any Western alphabet At a guess Rudi[ments] of Syri[ac] Such an informal title may simply indicate that the contents represent a sample of printed Arameic. Follow Up: Rudimantary was the name given to a class in Roman Catholic Schools, Colleges, or Seminaries, above Figures and Below Latin in Jesuit Schools. So possibly this was a text for use in the Rudimentary Class in Syriac. The bookworms were presumably atheists. michael adams I can state with certainty that no bookworm I have ever met has expressed a belief in God, so they must all be atheists. |
#6
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Help Identifying Syriac? Work 16th/17th Century? (0/1)
Al Smith wrote: no bookworm I have ever met has expressed a belief in God, so they must all be atheists. No one I've ever met has won an Olympic medal so the human race must all be bad at sports. No rock I've ever met has described itself as hard, so all rocks must be soft. John http://rarebooksinjapan.org |
#7
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Help Identifying Syriac? Work 16th/17th Century? (0/1)
On Sun, 4 Dec 2005 22:29:36 -0000, "michael adams"
wrote: "TIA" wrote in message .. . On Sun, 04 Dec 2005 17:45:48 +0000, TIA wrote: Hello, I have recently discovered a book titled 'Rudi Syri' at the bottom of a box of junk purchased at local auction. However I have no idea what the work is about or its age and was hoping that someone here would be able to help with the identification. The book appears to be in a 16/17th century vellum binding and has the ink title 'Rudi Syri' on the spine. There is a printers device (see photo) but other than that there are no other clues. Any help would be much appreciated. Sorry if uploading images breaks the rules but I don't know how else to describe the book! Oh well, it looks like the images have not been uploaded! You can see them at : http://www.katyandjason.co.uk/Image1.jpg http://www.katyandjason.co.uk/Image2.jpg Thanks The illustration is of the Virgin and Child so the book is presumably Christian. If without any Western alphabet At a guess Rudi[ments] of Syri[ac] Such an informal title may simply indicate that the contents represent a sample of printed Arameic. ... "TIA" wrote in message .. . On Sun, 04 Dec 2005 17:45:48 +0000, TIA wrote: Hello, I have recently discovered a book titled 'Rudi Syri' at the bottom of a box of junk purchased at local auction. However I have no idea what the work is about or its age and was hoping that someone here would be able to help with the identification. The book appears to be in a 16/17th century vellum binding and has the ink title 'Rudi Syri' on the spine. There is a printers device (see photo) but other than that there are no other clues. Any help would be much appreciated. Sorry if uploading images breaks the rules but I don't know how else to describe the book! Oh well, it looks like the images have not been uploaded! You can see them at : http://www.katyandjason.co.uk/Image1.jpg http://www.katyandjason.co.uk/Image2.jpg Thanks The illustration is of the Virgin and Child so the book is presumably Christian. If without any Western alphabet At a guess Rudi[ments] of Syri[ac] Such an informal title may simply indicate that the contents represent a sample of printed Arameic. Follow Up: Rudimantary was the name given to a class in Roman Catholic Schools, Colleges, or Seminaries, above Figures and Below Latin in Jesuit Schools. So possibly this was a text for use in the Rudimentary Class in Syriac. The bookworms were presumably atheists. michael adams ... Syriac being Arameic, the dialect of the Syrian Christians as they became, which is of liturgical significance as possibly being the language of Christ. The bookworms were presumably atheists. michael adams ... Thanks Michael your theory sounds very plausible! I guess it will be very difficult to gauge the age of this book. Other than the fact that it is printed on laid paper and is in a 17th century style vellum binding. It's a pity you can't age a book simply by counting the worm holes, in this case the work would be ancient indeed. Hopefully there will be someone out there who can read Syriac and give me a rough Idea to its title and printing data! I live in hope. |
#8
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Help Identifying Syriac? Work 16th/17th Century? (0/1)
"TIA" wrote in message ... On Sun, 4 Dec 2005 22:29:36 -0000, "michael adams" wrote: "TIA" wrote in message .. . On Sun, 04 Dec 2005 17:45:48 +0000, TIA wrote: Hello, I have recently discovered a book titled 'Rudi Syri' at the bottom of a box of junk purchased at local auction. However I have no idea what the work is about or its age and was hoping that someone here would be able to help with the identification. The book appears to be in a 16/17th century vellum binding and has the ink title 'Rudi Syri' on the spine. There is a printers device (see photo) but other than that there are no other clues. Any help would be much appreciated. Sorry if uploading images breaks the rules but I don't know how else to describe the book! Oh well, it looks like the images have not been uploaded! You can see them at : http://www.katyandjason.co.uk/Image1.jpg http://www.katyandjason.co.uk/Image2.jpg Thanks The illustration is of the Virgin and Child so the book is presumably Christian. If without any Western alphabet At a guess Rudi[ments] of Syri[ac] Such an informal title may simply indicate that the contents represent a sample of printed Arameic. Follow Up: Rudimantary was the name given to a class in Roman Catholic Schools, Colleges, or Seminaries, above Figures and Below Latin in Jesuit Schools. So possibly this was a text for use in the Rudimentary Class in Syriac. The bookworms were presumably atheists. michael adams Thanks Michael your theory sounds very plausible! I guess it will be very difficult to gauge the age of this book. Other than the fact that it is printed on laid paper and is in a 17th century style vellum binding. .... A lot of mould-made paper where the wire frame is prominent will have a water-mark, sometimes in the form of a fluer-de-lys set into the wire frame. ISTR the form changed occasionally as I have illustrations in a reference I can't lay my hands on right now. IIRR the watermark only occurs once or twice on every sheet so only occurs on every 8th, 4th, or whatever page, depending on the fold. .... It's a pity you can't age a book simply by counting the worm holes, in this case the work would be ancient indeed. Hopefully there will be someone out there who can read Syriac and give me a rough Idea to its title and printing data! I live in hope. .... I've been having a quick scour through evolving Arameic Hebrew and Arabic scripts on the Web without too much luck. There are plenty of examples available it would seem. On the assumption that the book is dated at all - although possibly spiritual works weren't dated on purpose being timeless - finding some Araemeic Arabic or Hebrew looking numbers in the work might be a help. The Christian Church was active in the Middle East of course right from the Time of Christ to the present day, and to associate Christianity with purely Roman script is probably a mistake. The - "Coll: Rom: Soe(?).Jes(?)"... er "Jesuit" handwritten script at the top of the page suggests the book was in a college library or institution somewhere. As already guessed at. Jesuit College of Rome (?). But then Rome would presumably be crawling with Jesuit Colleges. Dunno. A lot of such material came onto the market in the 20th century especially after World War II. Both through legitimate channels - institutions selling to top-end dealers, and as souvenirs brought back in kit bags. Allegedly. Also, the woodblock used for the illustration could be any age from the 16th to the 18th. While the iconography might point to one particular period, woodblocks might well last for centuries if they only recieved intermittent use. Does the book have a discernable title page ? michael adams .... |
#9
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Help Identifying Syriac? Work 16th/17th Century? (0/1)
"TIA" wrote in message
... On Sun, 4 Dec 2005 22:29:36 -0000, "michael adams" wrote: "TIA" wrote in message .. . On Sun, 04 Dec 2005 17:45:48 +0000, TIA wrote: Hello, I have recently discovered a book titled 'Rudi Syri' at the bottom of a box of junk purchased at local auction. However I have no idea what the work is about or its age and was hoping that someone here would be able to help with the identification. The book appears to be in a 16/17th century vellum binding and has the ink title 'Rudi Syri' on the spine. There is a printers device (see photo) but other than that there are no other clues. Any help would be much appreciated. Sorry if uploading images breaks the rules but I don't know how else to describe the book! Oh well, it looks like the images have not been uploaded! You can see them at : http://www.katyandjason.co.uk/Image1.jpg http://www.katyandjason.co.uk/Image2.jpg Thanks The illustration is of the Virgin and Child so the book is presumably Christian. If without any Western alphabet At a guess Rudi[ments] of Syri[ac] Such an informal title may simply indicate that the contents represent a sample of printed Arameic. Follow Up: Rudimantary was the name given to a class in Roman Catholic Schools, Colleges, or Seminaries, above Figures and Below Latin in Jesuit Schools. So possibly this was a text for use in the Rudimentary Class in Syriac. The bookworms were presumably atheists. michael adams Thanks Michael your theory sounds very plausible! I guess it will be very difficult to gauge the age of this book. Other than the fact that it is printed on laid paper and is in a 17th century style vellum binding. .... A lot of mould-made paper where the wire frame is prominent will have a water-mark, sometimes in the form of a fluer-de-lys set into the wire frame. ISTR the form changed occasionally as I have illustrations in a reference I can't lay my hands on right now. IIRR the watermark only occurs once or twice on every sheet so only occurs on every 8th, 4th, or whatever page, depending on the fold. .... It's a pity you can't age a book simply by counting the worm holes, in this case the work would be ancient indeed. Hopefully there will be someone out there who can read Syriac and give me a rough Idea to its title and printing data! I live in hope. .... I've been having a quick scour through evolving Arameic Hebrew and Arabic scripts on the Web without too much luck. There are plenty of examples available it would seem. On the assumption that the book is dated at all - although possibly spiritual works weren't dated on purpose being timeless - finding some Araemeic Arabic or Hebrew looking numbers in the work might be a help. The Christian Church was active in the Middle East of course right from the Time of Christ to the present day, and to associate Christianity with purely Roman script is probably a mistake. The - "Coll: Rom: Soe(?).Jes(?)"... er "Jesuit" handwritten script at the top of the page suggests the book was in a college library or institution somewhere. As already guessed at. Jesuit College of Rome (?). But then Rome would presumably be crawling with Jesuit Colleges. Dunno. follow up: The Collegium Romanorum was the Jesuit College founded in Rome by Pope Gregory in 1582. It was also known as the Gregorian University. It was disbanded in 1870 quote For the international Jesuit college (Collegium Romanum) he built in 1582 the large edifice known as the Collegio Romano which was occupied by the faculty and students of the Collegium Romanum (Gregorian University) until the Piedmontese Government declared it national property and expelled the Jesuits in 1870. /quote http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07001b.htm A lot of such material came onto the market in the 20th century especially after World War II. Both through legitimate channels - institutions selling to top-end dealers, and as souvenirs brought back in kit bags. Allegedly. Also, the woodblock used for the illustration could be any age from the 16th to the 18th. While the iconography might point to one particular period, woodblocks might well last for centuries if they only recieved intermittent use. Does the book have a discernable title page ? michael adams .... |
#10
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Help Identifying Syriac? Work 16th/17th Century? (0/1)
On Mon, 5 Dec 2005 10:53:34 -0000, "michael adams"
wrote: "TIA" wrote in message .. . On Sun, 4 Dec 2005 22:29:36 -0000, "michael adams" wrote: "TIA" wrote in message .. . On Sun, 04 Dec 2005 17:45:48 +0000, TIA wrote: Hello, I have recently discovered a book titled 'Rudi Syri' at the bottom of a box of junk purchased at local auction. However I have no idea what the work is about or its age and was hoping that someone here would be able to help with the identification. The book appears to be in a 16/17th century vellum binding and has the ink title 'Rudi Syri' on the spine. There is a printers device (see photo) but other than that there are no other clues. Any help would be much appreciated. Sorry if uploading images breaks the rules but I don't know how else to describe the book! Oh well, it looks like the images have not been uploaded! You can see them at : http://www.katyandjason.co.uk/Image1.jpg http://www.katyandjason.co.uk/Image2.jpg Thanks The illustration is of the Virgin and Child so the book is presumably Christian. If without any Western alphabet At a guess Rudi[ments] of Syri[ac] Such an informal title may simply indicate that the contents represent a sample of printed Arameic. Follow Up: Rudimantary was the name given to a class in Roman Catholic Schools, Colleges, or Seminaries, above Figures and Below Latin in Jesuit Schools. So possibly this was a text for use in the Rudimentary Class in Syriac. The bookworms were presumably atheists. michael adams Thanks Michael your theory sounds very plausible! I guess it will be very difficult to gauge the age of this book. Other than the fact that it is printed on laid paper and is in a 17th century style vellum binding. ... A lot of mould-made paper where the wire frame is prominent will have a water-mark, sometimes in the form of a fluer-de-lys set into the wire frame. ISTR the form changed occasionally as I have illustrations in a reference I can't lay my hands on right now. IIRR the watermark only occurs once or twice on every sheet so only occurs on every 8th, 4th, or whatever page, depending on the fold. ... It's a pity you can't age a book simply by counting the worm holes, in this case the work would be ancient indeed. Hopefully there will be someone out there who can read Syriac and give me a rough Idea to its title and printing data! I live in hope. ... I've been having a quick scour through evolving Arameic Hebrew and Arabic scripts on the Web without too much luck. There are plenty of examples available it would seem. On the assumption that the book is dated at all - although possibly spiritual works weren't dated on purpose being timeless - finding some Araemeic Arabic or Hebrew looking numbers in the work might be a help. The Christian Church was active in the Middle East of course right from the Time of Christ to the present day, and to associate Christianity with purely Roman script is probably a mistake. The - "Coll: Rom: Soe(?).Jes(?)"... er "Jesuit" handwritten script at the top of the page suggests the book was in a college library or institution somewhere. As already guessed at. Jesuit College of Rome (?). But then Rome would presumably be crawling with Jesuit Colleges. Dunno. follow up: The Collegium Romanorum was the Jesuit College founded in Rome by Pope Gregory in 1582. It was also known as the Gregorian University. It was disbanded in 1870 quote For the international Jesuit college (Collegium Romanum) he built in 1582 the large edifice known as the Collegio Romano which was occupied by the faculty and students of the Collegium Romanum (Gregorian University) until the Piedmontese Government declared it national property and expelled the Jesuits in 1870. /quote http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07001b.htm A lot of such material came onto the market in the 20th century especially after World War II. Both through legitimate channels - institutions selling to top-end dealers, and as souvenirs brought back in kit bags. Allegedly. Also, the woodblock used for the illustration could be any age from the 16th to the 18th. While the iconography might point to one particular period, woodblocks might well last for centuries if they only recieved intermittent use. Does the book have a discernable title page ? michael adams ... Hi Michael, Thanks for your time and efforts in trying to discover the origin and date of this strange little book. I have put up some more images of the pages from the book. Maybe someone out there can give us some more detail. http://www.katyandjason.co.uk/Image3.jpg http://www.katyandjason.co.uk/Image4.jpg http://www.katyandjason.co.uk/Image5.jpg http://www.katyandjason.co.uk/Image6.jpg The book does contain several watermarks although they are very hard to make out and have been cropped in half at the top of the pages. The image looks like an Angel funny enough. There appears to be no clear title page and the book starts with (Image2.jpg) The idea that the book originally was located in a Jesuit College could very well be true as there is a much later book mark from the now defunct ST. BENEDICT'S ABBEY in FORT AUGUSTUS (Scotland) which I believe through my little research was founded in the 1870's. I guess when the library was broken up some of the books have found there way to the various auction houses dotted about here. Sadly there are no clues on the bookmark about the work or its contents just a shelf number! Thanks again Michael for all your help. |
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