$10 vs $150 Pelikan: You Get What You Don't Pay For

"Tom Morley" schreef in bericht
...


Dave wrote:
Ko van den Boom wrote:


I am not a specialist in different types of metals, but I have always
learned that gold is a soft metal (as you say yourself in your mail:
"Its
SOFT") and steel is a hard metal.


Gold is really soft. Like mashed potatoes. You could never write with
pure gold if it was the size and shape of a regular nib - it would bend
and crush very quickly.

Steel can spring back. Gold stays bent when you bend it.

David


Therefore it's all about the alloy.

--
Tom Morley | Same roads
| Same rights
| Same rules
AIM: DocTDM



Okay, let's put it in another way: suppose we have two nibs which have
exactly the same size, form etc., but one is made out of pure steel, and the
other one of 14 or 18 K gold. Which is likely to give the softest writing
experience (supposed the writing instrument is exactly the same as well).

Ko

In article , "Ko
van den Boom" writes:

Okay, let's put it in another way: suppose we have two nibs which have
exactly the same size, form etc., but one is made out of pure steel, and the
other one of 14 or 18 K gold. Which is likely to give the softest writing
experience (supposed the writing instrument is exactly the same as well).

That would depend on which metals and what proportions were alloyed with the
gold used to produce nibs... with modern metalugical methods the gold
percentage (expressed in Karats) hasn't much if anything to do with a nib's
mechanical properties as it does it's gold value... Karat markings say very
little other than how much pure gold is contained within a particular gold
alloy. Of greater importance is the proprietorial process employed in a nib's
manufacture, and configuration. Developing a particular gold alloy for nibs is
not nearly so exacting as say that precision which is necessitated for
achieving particular electrical properties. Nib performance is strictly
subjective... most folks these days haven't a clue as to how to appreciate an
"expressive" nib (dummies say "flex") which is why manufactures have
progressively produced nibs capable of less and less expressiveness.


---= BOYCOTT FRENCH--GERMAN (belgium) =---
---= Move UNITED NATIONS To Paris =---
Sheldon
````````````
"Life would be devoid of all meaning were it without tribulation."

Ko van den Boom wrote:


Okay, let's put it in another way: suppose we have two nibs which have
exactly the same size, form etc., but one is made out of pure steel, and the
other one of 14 or 18 K gold. Which is likely to give the softest writing
experience (supposed the writing instrument is exactly the same as well).

No nib can be made of "pure" steel or pure gold. There is no such
thing. If one nib is stainless tteel and the other 14 or 18kt gold the
stele is far stronger but there is NO difference in how the two would
write or feel. NONE. ZERO. If IF IF the nibs have been alloyed to
give the same writing experience. Thats is ANY nib, gold or steel can
be made to feel soft, flex, hard, or whatever. EXCEPT is would be
impossible to make a super hard 18kt nib as hard as steel.

If IF IF the gold nib have been designed to feel soft or hard thats how
it will feel. The steel nib could also be designed to feel soft or
hard. On average soft nibs are more likely to be gold because thats how
modern gold nibs are DESIGNED to feel. Why? Thats how the companies
want to make em these days. 50 years ago you could get a gold nib as
hard as any steel nib or a steel nib softer than any gold today.
Sheaffer made their steel nibs in 3 different degress of flex in fact
and that was shown and explained in their catalogues. Their flex steel
nibs were a joy to write with for those that like flex nibs. Their semi
flex nibs felt almost exactly like the average gold nibs made today
feel. their firm steel nibs were hard as a nail to resist damage or
make carbon cobies or stab someeone to death. Frank

A long discussion has resulted from this comment.

To be careful, the question is about how smooth a given nib writes. At
least in my subjective opinion, this is different than asking how much flex
a given nib has.

Flex (at least to me) indicates that, with various amounts of pressure
applied to the pen as it crosses the paper, the tines of the nib spread,
resulting in wider or narrower ink lines. As pressure is decreased, the
tines return to their original state. This allows the writer to give an
"expressive" line of ink.

Smooth, to me, is the feel of the nib across the page (and granted this can
be affected by the paper as well).

Soft, on the other hand, seems to have some kind of meaning: I've read, in
this group, about nibs which are "hard as nails," and others which are soft.
I can relate based on various pens I've used: some nibs have literally no
"give" to them. Others "give" somewhat (not the same as flex, as the ink
line may not vary whatsoever.


"Ko van den Boom" wrote in message
...
Am I wrong thinking golden nibs writer smoother than steel ones?

Ko van den Boom wrote:
"Tom Morley" schreef in bericht
...


Dave wrote:

Ko van den Boom wrote:



I am not a specialist in different types of metals, but I have always
learned that gold is a soft metal (as you say yourself in your mail:

"Its

SOFT") and steel is a hard metal.


Gold is really soft. Like mashed potatoes. You could never write with
pure gold if it was the size and shape of a regular nib - it would bend
and crush very quickly.

Steel can spring back. Gold stays bent when you bend it.

David


Therefore it's all about the alloy.

--
Tom Morley

Okay, let's put it in another way: suppose we have two nibs which have
exactly the same size, form etc., but one is made out of pure steel, and the
other one of 14 or 18 K gold. Which is likely to give the softest writing
experience (supposed the writing instrument is exactly the same as well).

Ko


There is too little information here. 14K or 18K or "steel" is not
not enough to determine the alloy. Often the modern gold nibs are
made from a softer alloy than the steel nibs but this need not
be the case. Curriously, modern gold flutes are made with a much harder
alloy than modern silver flutes. Its all in the details. Pure titanium
is rather soft, but add a little aluminium and a little vanadium, and
it's great for bicycles, add a little more, and it's too hard to
draw tubing. Details.


--
Tom Morley | Same roads
| Same rights
| Same rules
AIM: DocTDM

David, cheap and expensive is relative. In this FP milieu some folk have no
qualms about 1000buck+ LE's. Thee plebs and proletariat have to make do with
what they can afford. Cheapos like us look for the under 100 bargain
basement. Occasionally we splurge and buy ourselves something nice and to
find that the $10 Peli M75 is a better writer than the $200 M1000 is
pretty exasperating.

Price and quality should go together. In the world of modern fp's this is
oft an anomaly.

BTW do any readers have feedback about Nakaya. Other ng's are filled with
adulation and I was wondering whether 500 for the urushi special is worth
it. Hand rolled, custom made and beautifully presented. Far sight better
than the prestigious and snooty precious resins for similar price.




"David Heverly" wrote in message

(David Meale) wrote in message

I know I'm not breaking new ground here, but I have to add more fuel
to the fire about cheap pens being made to write well and more
expensive pens made to look pretty...

I just received a Pelikan 75 (Pelikan GO!) pen today. Cost me $10.
Writes beautifully.

By contrast, my Pelikan 600, which cost around $150 is unreliable,
even after doing all of the Da Book tricks.

Glad to hear that the Pelikan Go is working out for you. I've seen a
number of them on eBay the past few months and wondered if they were
any good. Ten dollars for piston filler which works well is pretty
rare indeed. There was an article about this pen in this month's
Stylophiles. Here's the link:

http://www.penlovers.com/stylophiles/july03/07go.htm

There's a lot of truth to what you say about inexpensive pens. Two of
the best writing and best flowing pens I own are the cheapest I own.
One is the Parker Reflex with a medium steel nib. It cost me $6.00 at
the local office store. I've always had good luck with Parkers.
Their medium nibs are on the wide side and tend to run wet. The
Reflex is no exception. It's a nice size for my hand and comfortable
to use. The clip looks a little cheap, but other than that, it looks
OK despite being very light.

The other pen I love to use is a rOtring Rivette. It's made out of
translucent teal green plastic with a polished steel nib. A simple
strip of metal comes out of the top and is bent over the side to form
a clip. It's as cheap and minimal as a pen can be and still be a pen.
And yet it is one of the nicest writing pens I've ever used.

There's a joy in using a simple, well made tool which does what it is
supposed to without a lot of cost, fuss or maintenance. Reminds me of
my first car, a third hand VW Beetle I bought for $900. Cheap to own
and operate. Highly reliable and one of the most enjoyable cars I
ever owned.

It seems to me that after you reach a certain price point in a pen -
say $150 or $200 - what you are paying for is decoration and / or
exclusivity. But, there's a place for that. Just as I loved my VW, I
can also appreciate the lines of a Jaguar XK8 or a Maserati Spyder.
They may be impossibly over-engineered, over-powered and over-priced
for a bumper to bumper daily commute or a short trip to the mini-mart
for a quart of milk. But they are beautiful and need no other reason
to exist. I'll never own one, but that's OK.

I guess as long as we aren't so blinded by glitzy, expensive limited
edition pens that we can appreciate a well made daily writer, there's
room for both in the market.

David
Who is cheap by nature.

basement. Occasionally we splurge and buy ourselves something nice and to
find that the $10 Peli M75 is a better writer than the $200 M1000 is
pretty exasperating.

I agree wholeheartedly. I had the same experience -- my Waterman Carene
is woeful compared to my Phileas, at about 4-5 times the cost.

BTW do any readers have feedback about Nakaya. Other ng's are filled with
adulation and I was wondering whether 500 for the urushi special is worth
it. Hand rolled, custom made and beautifully presented. Far sight better
than the prestigious and snooty precious resins for similar price.

I have been drooling over one of those pens for a while. I found these
two reviews very helpful:

http://www.pendomain.com/nakayareview.htm
http://www.pendomain.com/nakurushi.htm

FWIW, I picked up a Platinum Very Presidential pen for a decent price.
It is no Nakaya, but a great looking pen and a great writer as well.

Regards,
Anthony