User ID Kept Private ??

"Ian" wrote in message
. uk...
...
I don't have the time or inclination to vet every single person i've
been tempted to place a bid with. However, if I can check their record
then at least that's a positive indicator (although not a guarantee). If
the people currently bidding close to upper market limits for the items
have ratings greater than +1 then I might be more inclined to believe
there is `strong interest / competition' going on as opposed to
shilling....etc. etc. etc.

Thank you Ian.
That's the best, most logical and sensible argument for public IDs so far in
this thread. The only good argument so far, I reckon.


While I suspect that you have much the same approach to these things as
I do, there is no doubt in my mind that a private auction offers far
more possibility for being ripped than it does for protection. I'm a bit
of a risk taker, and a trusting soul but I can assure you that if ebay
had been all about private auctions my buying activity would have been
greatly restricted.

It is still an issue of what we are used to and comfortable with about the
ebay format.
Compare with the public auction in person. The "real" auction - in an
auction house. You can't minutely examine the bidding history of all the
folk bidding against you when you're raising you hand on the floor, and I
don't see screaming hordes advising us to avoid "real" auctions because this
information isn't available. I don't see the accusation of dishonesty being
levelled against traditional auctions for this reason. (Not yours, BTW,
others.)

Anyway - you're right - the ebay feedback profile does allow us all an
extraordinary tool for examining the competing bidders - a facility which no
other venue (AFAIK) offers.

I still don't concede, however, that a private ID auction necessarily
implies dishonesty on the part of the seller (as *others* have suggested),
nor that they must be avoided _on that basis alone_.

Also, our ability to size up the opposition through their feedback profile
is getting more compromised every day, as a greater number of savvy buyers
restrict themselves to sniping only. We are reduced to only making these
investigations on completed auctions, and not the current ones which we may
be much more interested in.


cheers from Jockland,

Ian
`a whisky swillin' curry muncher'

Am happy to report that the blessed cool southerly change finally came
through Sydney this afternoon, and I suspect summer has made its last
hurrah.

--
Jeff R.
(and my shorts are quite fetching, thank you...)

"Jeff R" wrote in message
u...

"Bruce Remick" wrote in message
news:bHdEf.82557$4l5.66201@dukeread05...
In the case you cite, it seems odd to me that members of the very small
world-wide fraternity of collectors of these very scarce and very high
value
ITEMS could all be influenced by some Ebay stranger to pull their bids
because
of an anonymous email warning. Have they so little confidence in their
own
authentification expertise that they can be easily convinced that one of
their
ITEMS is bogus simply through a stranger's claim? If these guys really
are so
elite in what they collect, they should probably know all the others who
collect
them and where the known ITEMS all reside.

Bruce
'this is a private post'


They really *want* these items.
They cannot inspect them personally.
The suggestion of fraud was enough.

I can't speak to their motivations. They are their own. I'm just reporting
it as it went down.


I just thought that if they will spend such heavy money to acquire these
near-unique and valuable collectors items, that any one of them would know how
to authenticate one that might up for auction. If they were competing to spend
mega-bucks on an ITEM they couldn't inspect personally, they must have the
expertise to determine that the ITEM was authentic. Yet you say they were
scared off by an anonymous email. Makes me wonder what they would do if the
same anonymous emailer contacted them individually and told them that the ITEMS
already in their collections were phonys or copies.

BTW, I'm not particularly scared off by private bidder auctions, but I probably
would give it more thought before ever bidding in one. Depending on the actual
item being auctioned, it's only normal to wonder about the seller's motive for
making the bidder list private. I suspect that if I did decide to place a bid
and was later outbid, I probably wouldn't bid again. Just my gut feeling.

Bruce

"Bruce Remick" wrote in message
news:TLmEf.83155$4l5.69617@dukeread05...

I just thought that if they will spend such heavy money to acquire these
near-unique and valuable collectors items, that any one of them would know
how
to authenticate one that might up for auction. If they were competing to
spend
mega-bucks on an ITEM they couldn't inspect personally, they must have the
expertise to determine that the ITEM was authentic. Yet you say they were
scared off by an anonymous email. Makes me wonder what they would do if
the
same anonymous emailer contacted them individually and told them that the
ITEMS
already in their collections were phonys or copies.

The item was offered in good faith, and was genuine. I am not sure there
would be any practical way that a potential buyer could authenticate it with
the information provided in an ebay listing. The seller's photos were
excellent and numerous, yet, as in any other ebay auction, the bidders had
to trust the seller. The interferer damaged that trust.



BTW, I'm not particularly scared off by private bidder auctions, but I
probably
would give it more thought before ever bidding in one. Depending on the
actual
item being auctioned, it's only normal to wonder about the seller's motive
for
making the bidder list private. I suspect that if I did decide to place a
bid
and was later outbid, I probably wouldn't bid again. Just my gut feeling.

Bruce


....and fair enough too.

Its a bit sad that so many folk appear to be so extreme in their opinions
and actions that they would dismiss any such auction out of hand. I regard
discrimination as a worthy attribute in this respect.

--
Jeff R.

"Bruce Remick" wrote in message
news:TLmEf.83155$4l5.69617@dukeread05...

"Jeff R" wrote in message
u...

"Bruce Remick" wrote in message
news:bHdEf.82557$4l5.66201@dukeread05...
In the case you cite, it seems odd to me that members of the very small
world-wide fraternity of collectors of these very scarce and very high
value
ITEMS could all be influenced by some Ebay stranger to pull their bids
because
of an anonymous email warning. Have they so little confidence in their
own
authentification expertise that they can be easily convinced that one of
their
ITEMS is bogus simply through a stranger's claim? If these guys really
are so
elite in what they collect, they should probably know all the others who
collect
them and where the known ITEMS all reside.

Bruce
'this is a private post'


They really *want* these items.
They cannot inspect them personally.
The suggestion of fraud was enough.

I can't speak to their motivations. They are their own. I'm just
reporting
it as it went down.


I just thought that if they will spend such heavy money to acquire these
near-unique and valuable collectors items, that any one of them would know
how to authenticate one that might up for auction. If they were competing
to spend mega-bucks on an ITEM they couldn't inspect personally, they must
have the expertise to determine that the ITEM was authentic. Yet you say
they were scared off by an anonymous email. Makes me wonder what they
would do if the same anonymous emailer contacted them individually and
told them that the ITEMS already in their collections were phonys or
copies.

BTW, I'm not particularly scared off by private bidder auctions, but I
probably would give it more thought before ever bidding in one. Depending
on the actual item being auctioned, it's only normal to wonder about the
seller's motive for making the bidder list private. I suspect that if I
did decide to place a bid and was later outbid, I probably wouldn't bid
again. Just my gut feeling.

Bruce

I think this entire discussion is about perceived relative risk a/k/a gut
feelings. There is risk involved in any transaction, whether it takes place
in auction house, online auction, or face-to-face.

Here's an anecdote from my own bidding history. I hereby assert the
veracity of the details with the same assuredness as did JeffR in his
account:

Three years ago I won an open online auction for a 1935 Danzig 5 gulden,
KM-156 from a seller who had accumulated what I considered decent feedback.
When the coin arrived it was obvious that the photograph of the coin in the
auction had been processed to hide the word COPY (in Cyrillic letters).
Then ensued a bizarre exchange of emails with first, someone who claimed to
be the seller's son (Papa was away on another buying trip to Europe and
wouldn't return for three weeks) and who assured me that he would notify his
father upon his return. Then Papa corresponded with me about how he had
bought the piece from a legitimate dealer in Poland, so it had to be
authentic, etc. I kept insisting that there was no question that it was a
fake and that I wished a refund. No refund was offered. Finally I decided
that I had nothing to lose by sending the item back to the seller. Another
three weeks later I received a refund. As far as I was concerned, I was
made whole again. I was charitable and said to myself that perhaps the
seller indeed had been gone to Europe and that he indeed believed the coin
was authentic.

Meanwhile I continue to check for that item on eBay every few days, as I
still do not have one. Imagine my surprise when the same seller offered the
same coin a whole year later, but this time as "private" and "all sales
final." It was the only auction of his out of several dozen that was so
listed. The auction closed at over $200.

I offer this on its own merit, if any, for comment by any interested party.

Mr. Jaggers

On Thu, 2 Feb 2006 20:58:23 +1100, "Jeff R"
wrote:

Read what you just wrote, Reid.
You just contradicted yourself.

You're just arguing to argue, stupidly. And you're never wrong, ever,
and never change your mind, ever, as usual with people like you do.

One person here, not as active as he once was, likes to argue a
contrarian point to be contrarian and as an intellectual challenge.
You don't seem to have that self-awareness. I think with you, you take
a position based on inadequate knowledge or experience and then stick
to it no matter what evidence is presented, and just argue, argue,
argue.

Defending what eBay does private auctions is indefensible, if you know
what's going on.

Bye.

--

Email: (delete "remove this")

Consumer: http://rg.ancients.info/guide
Connoisseur: http://rg.ancients.info/glom
Counterfeit: http://rg.ancients.info/bogos

Jeff R wrote:

I still don't concede, however, that a private ID auction necessarily
implies dishonesty on the part of the seller (as *others* have suggested),
nor that they must be avoided _on that basis alone_.

I would not ask you to concede that. I was taught that a rule isn't a
rule if it doesn't have an exception.

I have stated a golden rule for private auctions. Are you saying that
there is an exception (therefore making the rule)? ;-)


Also, our ability to size up the opposition through their feedback profile
is getting more compromised every day, as a greater number of savvy buyers
restrict themselves to sniping only. We are reduced to only making these
investigations on completed auctions, and not the current ones which we may
be much more interested in.


I find myself buying mainly from from countries where ebay is not
legally allowed to disclose what someone has bid on (current or
historically).

Apart from the occasional experiment I am now `snipe only'. This is
mainly due to the fact that I generally put a lot of hard graft into
looking through listings and spotting items worth bidding on. If I bid
on them early , then anyone who knows my interests (the competition)
only has to do a search on my user id to see what i've unearthed, and
then take advantage of my research time. It has happened in the past on
a number of occasions. So, now I don't have that problem if I stick with
using a snipe program. I still bid my max and I either get it or I
don't. At least I know that anyone snatching an item away from me
discovered it for themselves and not as a result of piggy backing on my
efforts.

(and my shorts are quite fetching, thank you...)

Stick clear of the grog Jeff. :-)

cheers,

Ian

"Reid Goldsborough" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 2 Feb 2006 20:58:23 +1100, "Jeff R"
wrote:

Read what you just wrote, Reid.
You just contradicted yourself.

You're just arguing to argue, stupidly. And you're never wrong, ever,
and never change your mind, ever, as usual with people like you do.

....and you continue to refuse to address even the most basic points that I
raise, relying on insults and personal attacks alone - *exactly* as
predicted.

Thank you for conceding defeat.

--
Jeff R.

Jeff R spoke thusly...

"Ira Stein" wrote in message
oups.com...
Only sellers could ask for contact information on eBay and also winning
buyers of that specific closed auction. Now, contact information such
as town and phone no. are not given, but eBay sends an e-mail to seller
or vice-versa askig one to contact the other. At least, that's the way
it was. Now, when there's a winning bidder, the buyer's address is
given automatically by eBay to seller only.

So, as I see it, there really isn't a valid reason to keep the IDs
private unless a fraudulent auction is underway.

Ira


Ira, don't you acknowledge at least the *possibility* of auction
interference by either a malicious opposing seller, or an unscrupulous
competing bidder?

Shill bidding can be easily disguised (even with public IDs), so how does a
private ID auction suggest a fraudulent auction?

Maybe some of their thinking is based on the fact that you, in a public
auction, you can go back and look at a pattern of a bidders past bids
and use that to see if their is shilling. In a private auction you
can't.

However, that is not a big argument in my case. First off, even though I
can do it, there are very few auctions that I bother to do it in. And, I
bet I still do it more than the average Ebay bidder. It is probably a
'protection' that is rarely used by bidders. IMHO, YMMV, ad nauseum, of
course.

Secondly, you can end up seeing a lot of Shadow People that may or may
not be there. Not too long ago I saw a seller with a number of, let's
call it 'Generic Items', up for sale. I bid on one early at a price I
thought was low but possibly realistic and became high bidder. A day or
so later I was out bid on that 'Generic Item'. So I went to his next one
and placed the same bid. All that did was bump up the current bid on
that one to one level above what I was willing to pay. I did that with
several others and eventually got high bidder on one. Later I was outbid
on that one too.

Since I rarely bid on Ebay in the first place, if I had seen my bidding
pattern, I could have easily thought I was a shill bidding on only that
sellers auctions and just trying to bump up the price. In reality, I was
just a cheap-ass trying to get a 'Generic Item' that I underestimated
the popularity of.

--
Stu
http://www.NumisPaper.com

"Stujoe" wrote in message
.net...
Snip


Since I rarely bid on Ebay in the first place, if I had seen my bidding
pattern, I could have easily thought I was a shill bidding on only that
sellers auctions and just trying to bump up the price. In reality, I was
just a cheap-ass trying to get a 'Generic Item' that I underestimated
the popularity of.

--
Stu
http://www.NumisPaper.com



There are several sellers on eBay that usually have a lot of stuff for sale
of my particular flavor.
I have them marked as favorite sellers. I routinely bid on many of their
auctions but this stuff
often goes for more than I can (change can to WILL) pay. They are worth it
but I don't
have all the hobby funds I need :-) Anyway I lose 95% or better of their
auctions.

Looks like I am shilling for them but it ain't so. That 5% that I do get
are worth the effort.

Dale
I may not be rich but at least I am cheap :-)

"Stujoe" wrote in message
.net...

Maybe some of their thinking is based on the fact that you, in a public
auction, you can go back and look at a pattern of a bidders past bids
and use that to see if their is shilling. In a private auction you
can't.

Yup.
That's 'zactly the argument Ian mentioned, and I concur.
Limited applicability, though, as you say.


Secondly, you can end up seeing a lot of Shadow People that may or may
not be there. Not too long ago I saw a seller with a number of, let's
call it 'Generic Items', up for sale. I bid on one early at a price I
thought was low but possibly realistic and became high bidder. A day or
so later I was out bid on that 'Generic Item'. So I went to his next one
and placed the same bid. All that did was bump up the current bid on
that one to one level above what I was willing to pay. I did that with
several others and eventually got high bidder on one. Later I was outbid
on that one too.

Hehe
Me too.
In my case, the lastest "generic item" was a 3w luxeon torch. I must've bid
on 10 of the dam' things til I finally got one. Guess that makes me a
shill, too.


Since I rarely bid on Ebay in the first place, if I had seen my bidding
pattern, I could have easily thought I was a shill bidding on only that
sellers auctions and just trying to bump up the price. In reality, I was
just a cheap-ass trying to get a 'Generic Item' that I underestimated
the popularity of.

Ahhhh, ebay.
Brings out the best qualities in everyone.

--
Stu
http://www.NumisPaper.com

--
Jeff R.