Need ID of Hungarian Medal or translation

On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 16:52:02 -0600, "James Higby"
heezerbumfrool[at]hotmail[dot]com wrote:


"gogu" wrote in message
...
I could help you James if it has something to do with Hungarian or with
linguistics in general, though in a limited degree...
Even if I can't help you I have a good friend who is quite knowledgeable
in
the sector.


OK, I'll start with a simple one.When I was in high school I learned that
the Islamic holy book was the KORAN, spelled thus. I knew it wasn't
really spelled that way, as it is an Arabic word, written in Arabic, but
spelled phonetically with the Western alphabet for those of us who do not
read Arabic.

Well, my friend says there is not an explanation to that and it's because
of
the same motive that there is McDonald and MacDonald, McQuinn and McQueen,
gasolene and gasoline, aluminium and aluminum and so on ;-)

I am not talking about issues that go back perhaps millennia, but recent
arbitrary decisions by Americans writing for consumption by Americans and
making things less clear as opposed to more clear.

But now all of a sudden the transliteration has become QU'RAN. In my
view, this is not nearly as straightforward as KORAN. Why the QU instead
of the simpler and unambiguous K? And what's the deal with the
apostrophe?

Again no apparent reason: just the same motive why Peking became Beijing,
Mao Tse-dun became Mao Ze-dong, Teng Hsiao-ping became
Deng Xiao-ping, Bombay became Mumbay, Birmania became
Burma, Rumania became Romania, Cambodja became Campuchea,
Alma Ata became Almaty, Gruzia became Georgia...
I suppose he wants to say there is not a linguistic reason for that.

I always told my students that the change in the Chinese transliterations
was due to increased knowledge of China after the Nixon years. For the
first time many cartographers became aware that their printed geographical
names were lacking in accuracy.

I am familiar with the Yale system and the Wade-Giles system of
Romanization of Chinese. Both are pretty easily understood and used.
I am convinced that the present system was invented by the Chinese
government to both befuddle and confuse foreigners trying to read,
write, and speak Chinese Mandarin using the English alphabet.
How does one pronounce "X?" It keeps foreigners in their place, I
think. Not too bright, but it does show who's in charge.
Aram.

"Aram H. Haroutunian" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 16:52:02 -0600, "James Higby"
heezerbumfrool[at]hotmail[dot]com wrote:


"gogu" wrote in message
...
I could help you James if it has something to do with Hungarian or
with
linguistics in general, though in a limited degree...
Even if I can't help you I have a good friend who is quite
knowledgeable
in
the sector.


OK, I'll start with a simple one.When I was in high school I learned
that
the Islamic holy book was the KORAN, spelled thus. I knew it wasn't
really spelled that way, as it is an Arabic word, written in Arabic,
but
spelled phonetically with the Western alphabet for those of us who do
not
read Arabic.

Well, my friend says there is not an explanation to that and it's
because
of
the same motive that there is McDonald and MacDonald, McQuinn and
McQueen,
gasolene and gasoline, aluminium and aluminum and so on ;-)

I am not talking about issues that go back perhaps millennia, but recent
arbitrary decisions by Americans writing for consumption by Americans and
making things less clear as opposed to more clear.

But now all of a sudden the transliteration has become QU'RAN. In my
view, this is not nearly as straightforward as KORAN. Why the QU
instead
of the simpler and unambiguous K? And what's the deal with the
apostrophe?

Again no apparent reason: just the same motive why Peking became
Beijing,
Mao Tse-dun became Mao Ze-dong, Teng Hsiao-ping became
Deng Xiao-ping, Bombay became Mumbay, Birmania became
Burma, Rumania became Romania, Cambodja became Campuchea,
Alma Ata became Almaty, Gruzia became Georgia...
I suppose he wants to say there is not a linguistic reason for that.

I always told my students that the change in the Chinese transliterations
was due to increased knowledge of China after the Nixon years. For the
first time many cartographers became aware that their printed geographical
names were lacking in accuracy.

I am familiar with the Yale system and the Wade-Giles system of
Romanization of Chinese. Both are pretty easily understood and used.
I am convinced that the present system was invented by the Chinese
government to both befuddle and confuse foreigners trying to read,
write, and speak Chinese Mandarin using the English alphabet.
How does one pronounce "X?" It keeps foreigners in their place, I
think. Not too bright, but it does show who's in charge.
Aram.

That never occurred to me. You might just have something there, Aram. And
I love that term "romanization."

James
'you say Xinjiang, I say Sinkiang.......let's call the whole thing off!'

"Aram H. Haroutunian" wrote in message
...
I am familiar with the Yale system and the Wade-Giles system of
Romanization of Chinese. Both are pretty easily understood and used.
I am convinced that the present system was invented by the Chinese
government to both befuddle and confuse foreigners trying to read,
write, and speak Chinese Mandarin using the English alphabet.
How does one pronounce "X?" It keeps foreigners in their place, I
think. Not too bright, but it does show who's in charge.
Aram.

I just googled up Wade-Giles. What a wealth of information! Thanks for the
lead, and it'll be a while before I can come up for air.

James

Ï "James Higby" heezerbumfrool[at]hotmail[dot]com Ýãñáøå óôï ìÞíõìá
...

"gogu" wrote in message
...

OK, I'll start with a simple one.When I was in high school I learned
that
the Islamic holy book was the KORAN, spelled thus. I knew it wasn't
really spelled that way, as it is an Arabic word, written in Arabic, but
spelled phonetically with the Western alphabet for those of us who do
not
read Arabic.


Well, my friend says there is not an explanation to that and it's because
of
the same motive that there is McDonald and MacDonald, McQuinn and
McQueen,
gasolene and gasoline, aluminium and aluminum and so on ;-)


I am not talking about issues that go back perhaps millennia, but recent
arbitrary decisions by Americans writing for consumption by Americans and
making things less clear as opposed to more clear.

Well, gasoline was not known 1000 years ago ;-)
So what is the reason for aluminium and gasoline ?!
None, (I think)...

But now all of a sudden the transliteration has become QU'RAN. In my
view, this is not nearly as straightforward as KORAN. Why the QU
instead
of the simpler and unambiguous K? And what's the deal with the
apostrophe?


Again no apparent reason: just the same motive why Peking became Beijing,
Mao Tse-dun became Mao Ze-dong, Teng Hsiao-ping became
Deng Xiao-ping, Bombay became Mumbay, Birmania became
Burma, Rumania became Romania, Cambodja became Campuchea,
Alma Ata became Almaty, Gruzia became Georgia...
I suppose he wants to say there is not a linguistic reason for that.


I always told my students that the change in the Chinese transliterations
was due to increased knowledge of China after the Nixon years. For the
first time many cartographers became aware that their printed geographical
names were lacking in accuracy.

Yes, but this certainly does not explain the Rumania-Romania, Alma
Ata-Almaty, Gruzia-Georgia, etc.
All of them were quite known places, so it must be something other or even
.... no reason :-)
In Romania for instance it happened something quite strange: after communism
took over around 1947, the writing of some words changed in romanian
language. To be more precise, it changed the writing of some letters in the
words: before-sunt, in communist era-sint, before-atat, in communism-atit,
etc. Now after 1989 and the fall of communism the old way of writing came
back ! The reason ? I don't know ! Certainly it's not an evolution of the
language or something similar.


(my note: the apostrophe I believe is for a "dead" "h" between U and R,
something like quHran, the H been almost silent. Probably that way it's
nearer to the real pronunciation as Arabs pronounce it).


That certainly sounds plausible. The problem is, no one has ever given
that explanation before. You're a pioneer, gogu!

Well, not at all :-)
When I was a young postgraduate student in Italy, I had some Arab friends at
the
university.
Maybe my English is not so good but I generally grab quickly foreign
languages (especially the Romanic ones). And especially the spoken form and
not so much the written one...
So I have noticed that they have that "dead" "h" in many words in their
language.
One example is the name of Arafat's organization: we are pronouncing it "Al
Hatah", with a clear and sound "h" at the end.
Well, they are pronouncing it with a dead "h" at the end which is almost not
audible when they talk !
In Arab the city Cairo is Al Kahira, the "h" again been dead.
And so on.

Something similar is valid for the Italian: I was surprised at the beginning
to listen the Italians calling the well known motorcycles Honda ... Onda ;-)
Not the same reasons with Arab of course, but the same strange.


So as to go back on the topic of coins, why are some unit coins of
Arabic
countries called RIALS while others are called RIYALS? Seems to me
those
two spellings represent identical sounds.


Well, here my friends says that it only "seems" because in spoken
language
there is a difference between the two:
rial is [ri-al], while riyal is [ri-yal].


That gets into the topic of phonemes, and I doubt that the people at
Krause have any notion of what that's all about, nor do 99.9% of their
users.

Of course not.
It is strange that the word "rial" and all its derivative forms survived in
many Arabic countries, if we consider the fact that the word comes from the
Hispanic real. I mean, I would expect to find it in the Magreb countries who
had their share of influence by Spanish culture but I can't find an
explanation for Arabic countries miles away from Spain.
And something that you may didn't know: did you know that the dirham
currency in different Arabic countries (and not only) and under different
forms as dirham -dram comes from the ... Greek "dra(c)hma" ? In Armenia it
is called dram, in Morocco and United Arab Emirates dirham and in Qatar it
is surviving as dirham, a subdivision of the national currency which is the
.... rial :-)

He also says that there is a more appropriate ng for such questions with
posters who are much more knowledgeable than him (he even used the
expression "geniuses" :-)), that's sci.lang.

Thanks, I'll check that out. And thanks for taking the time to ask your
friend and summarize your conversation here on rcc.

No problem, I am always happy to help when I can my fellow rcc-ers !


--
E' mai possibile, oh porco di un cane, che le avventure
in codesto reame debban risolversi tutte con grandi
puttane! F.d.A

Coins, travels and mo http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/golanule/my_photos
http://gogu.enosi.org/index.html
http://www.romclub.4t.com/rabin.html

James