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RUSSIA: 1842 rouble (A-Ch) -- rare overdate?
I picked up this coin today at the "Internationale Münzenbörse" in
Basel. This venue used to be the "World Money Fair", but that has moved to Berlin and will take place next weekend. Needless to say, the show has lost much of its former glamour (I can only compare it to last year's show). Spent a little under $100 total: in addition to this coin, all I found was an 1861 Indian cent in choice VF (borderline XF) for about VG money, and a gorgeous 1925 Peace dollar for $18. It's always an interesting experience to attend a European coin show ("Slabs? What are those??" g ... all the coins are either in large flat display trays or in 2x2's in an album). Anyway, these pre-1844 roubles never cease to surprise me. There are so many die cracks in this one that I wonder how they kept it from falling apart completely? The eagle side (never can get it straight what is "obverse" and "reverse" with these coins) has the most awesome die polish (if one can still call it that) at 8 pm. But I'm most interested in the date which appears to be repunched ... but over what?? The 2 looks like 2/1, but the 4 has some wierd thing coming off the top ... Anyway, here are the pics: http://imagecloset.com/8/01590828-Ru...2_A_CH_obv.jpg http://imagecloset.com/8/01400828-Ru...2_A_CH_rev.jpg http://imagecloset.com/8/01060828-Ru...ate_detail.jpg If you have R.W. Julian's book "Russian Silver Coinage 1796-1917", it looks to me like #1087 (described on p. 92) -- eagle "d" with 7 buds, and no misspellings. -- Bob Hairgrove |
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#2
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RUSSIA: 1842 rouble (A-Ch) -- rare overdate?
Unable to bring up imagecloset.com. However, you are quite right that
pre-1844 roubles often have numerous die breaks and are poorly struck. This is especially true for the late 1830s as well. The overdate is probably, as you say, 1842/1. I have seen one of these but it may be from a different reverse die. RWJ Bob Hairgrove wrote: I picked up this coin today at the "Internationale Münzenbörse" in Basel. This venue used to be the "World Money Fair", but that has moved to Berlin and will take place next weekend. Needless to say, the show has lost much of its former glamour (I can only compare it to last year's show). Spent a little under $100 total: in addition to this coin, all I found was an 1861 Indian cent in choice VF (borderline XF) for about VG money, and a gorgeous 1925 Peace dollar for $18. It's always an interesting experience to attend a European coin show ("Slabs? What are those??" g ... all the coins are either in large flat display trays or in 2x2's in an album). Anyway, these pre-1844 roubles never cease to surprise me. There are so many die cracks in this one that I wonder how they kept it from falling apart completely? The eagle side (never can get it straight what is "obverse" and "reverse" with these coins) has the most awesome die polish (if one can still call it that) at 8 pm. But I'm most interested in the date which appears to be repunched ... but over what?? The 2 looks like 2/1, but the 4 has some wierd thing coming off the top ... Anyway, here are the pics: http://imagecloset.com/8/01590828-Ru...2_A_CH_obv.jpg http://imagecloset.com/8/01400828-Ru...2_A_CH_rev.jpg http://imagecloset.com/8/01060828-Ru...ate_detail.jpg If you have R.W. Julian's book "Russian Silver Coinage 1796-1917", it looks to me like #1087 (described on p. 92) -- eagle "d" with 7 buds, and no misspellings. -- Bob Hairgrove |
#3
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RUSSIA: 1842 rouble (A-Ch) -- rare overdate?
On Sat, 28 Jan 2006 15:48:02 -0500, RW Julian
wrote: Unable to bring up imagecloset.com. Bob, I know that some people here have said that they also had trouble with this server. I would post my pictures to ABPN, but my NG server doesn't carry it, so this is what I ended up with. There's also the Yahoo picture site, but they always resize the pictures to about 1/2 the screen width (which seriously hampers a lot of numismatic research! g) If you have that high-speed cable internet connection you said you were getting, it should eventually work. Please keep trying; otherwise, I would be happy to resize the pictures to something downloadable with dial-up and provide close-ups only of the salient parts and e-mail them to you... However, you are quite right that pre-1844 roubles often have numerous die breaks and are poorly struck. This is especially true for the late 1830s as well. The overdate is probably, as you say, 1842/1. I have seen one of these but it may be from a different reverse die. Which one? I might be mistaken as to the correct die attribution; after all, there are only a dozen or so different eagles! g (BTW, which one is the "reverse"??) RWJ Bob Hairgrove wrote: I picked up this coin today at the "Internationale Münzenbörse" in Basel. This venue used to be the "World Money Fair", but that has moved to Berlin and will take place next weekend. Needless to say, the show has lost much of its former glamour (I can only compare it to last year's show). Spent a little under $100 total: in addition to this coin, all I found was an 1861 Indian cent in choice VF (borderline XF) for about VG money, and a gorgeous 1925 Peace dollar for $18. It's always an interesting experience to attend a European coin show ("Slabs? What are those??" g ... all the coins are either in large flat display trays or in 2x2's in an album). Anyway, these pre-1844 roubles never cease to surprise me. There are so many die cracks in this one that I wonder how they kept it from falling apart completely? The eagle side (never can get it straight what is "obverse" and "reverse" with these coins) has the most awesome die polish (if one can still call it that) at 8 pm. But I'm most interested in the date which appears to be repunched ... but over what?? The 2 looks like 2/1, but the 4 has some wierd thing coming off the top ... Anyway, here are the pics: http://imagecloset.com/8/01590828-Ru...2_A_CH_obv.jpg http://imagecloset.com/8/01400828-Ru...2_A_CH_rev.jpg http://imagecloset.com/8/01060828-Ru...ate_detail.jpg If you have R.W. Julian's book "Russian Silver Coinage 1796-1917", it looks to me like #1087 (described on p. 92) -- eagle "d" with 7 buds, and no misspellings. -- Bob Hairgrove -- Bob Hairgrove |
#4
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RUSSIA: 1842 rouble (A-Ch) -- rare overdate?
Well .... this time it came up with no trouble whatsoever. Go figure.
The overdate, in my opinion, is clearly 1842/1. It also appears as though the die sinker started one kind of figure 4 then changed his mind on the angle at the upper left side; this could perhaps be called a blundered 4. I do not have a note as to which eagle is involved for the overdate I have seen. The eagle, by the way, I consider as the obverse as it is the State symbol. On the other hand if there is a portrait on one side and the eagle on the other I think the portrait side becomes the obverse. In Russia today the State symbol is always considered the obverse on current coins regardless of the other side though most collectors in the West would prefer the opposite. RWJ Bob Hairgrove wrote: On Sat, 28 Jan 2006 15:48:02 -0500, RW Julian wrote: Unable to bring up imagecloset.com. Bob, I know that some people here have said that they also had trouble with this server. I would post my pictures to ABPN, but my NG server doesn't carry it, so this is what I ended up with. There's also the Yahoo picture site, but they always resize the pictures to about 1/2 the screen width (which seriously hampers a lot of numismatic research! g) However, you are quite right that pre-1844 roubles often have numerous die breaks and are poorly struck. This is especially true for the late 1830s as well. The overdate is probably, as you say, 1842/1. I have seen one of these but it may be from a different reverse die. Which one? I might be mistaken as to the correct die attribution; after all, there are only a dozen or so different eagles! g (BTW, which one is the "reverse"??) RWJ Bob Hairgrove wrote: I picked up this coin today at the "Internationale Münzenbörse" in Basel. This venue used to be the "World Money Fair", but that has moved to Berlin and will take place next weekend. Needless to say, the show has lost much of its former glamour (I can only compare it to last year's show). Spent a little under $100 total: in addition to this coin, all I found was an 1861 Indian cent in choice VF (borderline XF) for about VG money, and a gorgeous 1925 Peace dollar for $18. It's always an interesting experience to attend a European coin show ("Slabs? What are those??" g ... all the coins are either in large flat display trays or in 2x2's in an album). Anyway, these pre-1844 roubles never cease to surprise me. There are so many die cracks in this one that I wonder how they kept it from falling apart completely? The eagle side (never can get it straight what is "obverse" and "reverse" with these coins) has the most awesome die polish (if one can still call it that) at 8 pm. But I'm most interested in the date which appears to be repunched ... but over what?? The 2 looks like 2/1, but the 4 has some wierd thing coming off the top ... Anyway, here are the pics: http://imagecloset.com/8/01590828-Ru...2_A_CH_obv.jpg http://imagecloset.com/8/01400828-Ru...2_A_CH_rev.jpg http://imagecloset.com/8/01060828-Ru...ate_detail.jpg If you have R.W. Julian's book "Russian Silver Coinage 1796-1917", it looks to me like #1087 (described on p. 92) -- eagle "d" with 7 buds, and no misspellings. -- Bob Hairgrove -- Bob Hairgrove |
#5
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RUSSIA: 1842 rouble (A-Ch) -- rare overdate?
On Sun, 29 Jan 2006 13:39:30 -0500, RW Julian
wrote: Well .... this time it came up with no trouble whatsoever. Go figure. The overdate, in my opinion, is clearly 1842/1. It also appears as though the die sinker started one kind of figure 4 then changed his mind on the angle at the upper left side; this could perhaps be called a blundered 4. I do not have a note as to which eagle is involved for the overdate I have seen. Thanks for persevering, Bob ... I appreciate it very much. Do you have any idea whether such coins would command a premium on the market? The eagle, by the way, I consider as the obverse as it is the State symbol. On the other hand if there is a portrait on one side and the eagle on the other I think the portrait side becomes the obverse. In Russia today the State symbol is always considered the obverse on current coins regardless of the other side though most collectors in the West would prefer the opposite. So the monogram of Catherine the Great on a 5 kopek coin, for example, is not the state symbol, but the eagle is? I suppose the fact that most U.S. American coins that have an eagle, have it on the reverse, is what has got me confused. BTW, after almost a year of looking almost every day, there has finally been a rare-date poltina of Nicholas II up for auction on eBay -- 1902-AR, only in F-15 or thereabouts -- but it's mine now! Mintage figure of only 36,009. I think I'd be content to pull in a nice 1907 some day and then just leave the rest to chance ... BTW2, did you go to the last New York sale of Dmitri Markov? I took the opportunity of looking at the lots of Nicholas II at the Basel office of his "Swiss Connection" (Dr. Hans Voegtli, ACAMA) and actually held the 1903 poltina in my hand, thinking that this is one coin that I shall probably never own, but satisfied just to have held it once -- even if it was in an NGC slab! In your book you write that 1898 and 1903 poltinas are believed to have been struck in proofs only. Well, this 1903 poltina was advertised in Mr. Markov's auction as "prooflike", but not "proof"; and after seeing it, I wouldn't say it was a proof, either; it *is* a splendid coin, though. Amazingly low mintage of 19 pieces total, and only 10 for 1898 ... not even enough for one roll! Dmitri Markov also had a choice proof 1912 Borodino commemorative rouble in the auction (lot #1560) ... but in your book you state that this is "unknown in proof"? I also looked at that one, and it is indeed a proof, as far as I could tell. That is one absolutely gorgeous coin...someday I'll sell all my 50 kopek pieces and splurge on that one coin...if I can still find it, that is! Bob Hairgrove wrote: [snipped] -- Bob Hairgrove |
#6
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RUSSIA: 1842 rouble (A-Ch) -- rare overdate?
Well, my news server is working again, after being down for 50 hours, so
I was able to read this message. Overdates tend to bring slightly better money but there is no fixed rule. The Russians tend to put the monogram of the Empress for the obverse but my view is that the State emblem is more important than the ruler's initials. You would probably get 11 opinions from 10 people on this one, however. I also think that the portrait outweighs the eagle, which is probably not consistent! The 1902 poltina is rare; sorry I missed that one! I was not at the NY International (never have been) but the proof 1912 Borodino has shown up in proof since the book was published in 1993. I could not find any record of such a coin before publication but have seen two or three since. It is extremely rare and was clearly made only for VIPs. The pieces I saw were definitely proofs and not proof-like. The 19 pieces you mention (which is found in the annual fiscal report of the mint) is not really a mintage as such. It is actually the number of pieces distributed to key collections, as that of the Emperor, the Hermitage, various museums, and important collectors such as Grand Duke Georgii Mikhailovich. The proof coins sold to ordinary collectors were never listed in the official mint reports so the true mintage of the 1903 poltina, which was made only in proof, is unknown but perhaps in the 200 to 300 range. There were, by the way, several proof-only mintages under Nicholas II, such as the 5 through 20 kopecks of 1913 with the EB initials. RWJ Bob Hairgrove wrote: On Sun, 29 Jan 2006 13:39:30 -0500, RW Julian wrote: Well .... this time it came up with no trouble whatsoever. Go figure. The overdate, in my opinion, is clearly 1842/1. It also appears as though the die sinker started one kind of figure 4 then changed his mind on the angle at the upper left side; this could perhaps be called a blundered 4. I do not have a note as to which eagle is involved for the overdate I have seen. Thanks for persevering, Bob ... I appreciate it very much. Do you have any idea whether such coins would command a premium on the market? The eagle, by the way, I consider as the obverse as it is the State symbol. On the other hand if there is a portrait on one side and the eagle on the other I think the portrait side becomes the obverse. In Russia today the State symbol is always considered the obverse on current coins regardless of the other side though most collectors in the West would prefer the opposite. So the monogram of Catherine the Great on a 5 kopek coin, for example, is not the state symbol, but the eagle is? I suppose the fact that most U.S. American coins that have an eagle, have it on the reverse, is what has got me confused. BTW, after almost a year of looking almost every day, there has finally been a rare-date poltina of Nicholas II up for auction on eBay -- 1902-AR, only in F-15 or thereabouts -- but it's mine now! Mintage figure of only 36,009. I think I'd be content to pull in a nice 1907 some day and then just leave the rest to chance ... BTW2, did you go to the last New York sale of Dmitri Markov? I took the opportunity of looking at the lots of Nicholas II at the Basel office of his "Swiss Connection" (Dr. Hans Voegtli, ACAMA) and actually held the 1903 poltina in my hand, thinking that this is one coin that I shall probably never own, but satisfied just to have held it once -- even if it was in an NGC slab! In your book you write that 1898 and 1903 poltinas are believed to have been struck in proofs only. Well, this 1903 poltina was advertised in Mr. Markov's auction as "prooflike", but not "proof"; and after seeing it, I wouldn't say it was a proof, either; it *is* a splendid coin, though. Amazingly low mintage of 19 pieces total, and only 10 for 1898 ... not even enough for one roll! Dmitri Markov also had a choice proof 1912 Borodino commemorative rouble in the auction (lot #1560) ... but in your book you state that this is "unknown in proof"? I also looked at that one, and it is indeed a proof, as far as I could tell. That is one absolutely gorgeous coin...someday I'll sell all my 50 kopek pieces and splurge on that one coin...if I can still find it, that is! Bob Hairgrove wrote: [snipped] -- Bob Hairgrove |
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