The bookselling racket (was: Collecting Dictionaries)

my-wings wrote:

I tend to drop out of endless discussions earlier rather than later.

I should. I joined here primarily in the hope of exchanging some
information on my interest. Before 2000, i got caught up in a lot of
these dicussions - compulsive fun - the only computer game i ever
played. Feels like old times. Just a temporary binge, though...

[xerlome]:
i paid too much, and it had worm holes in it. Shortly after
that i discovered a copy in a thrift store. That was one of my last
really great thrift store finds.

We call them "brags" here....great books found for a fraction of the "going rate."

Really, i'm not here to brag. I wanted to illustrate how good items
used to turn up more often for me in thrift stores.

But the first thing that occurred to me was: If you've got two copies
now, why not sell the least desirable one on eBay?

Thanks. Selling a few items on eBay is a possibility. I have a lot
of sorting to do eventually. On this item, first thing that comes to
mind is having to explain (as the seller didn't) that there are worm
holes in some of the volumes.

I tend to like to keep duplicates, sometimes so that i can use one as
much as i want without degrading the other. For the time being, i am
divided between two houses far apart, so i have dupicates of a bunch of
things so i am not separated from them. Then there's my goal to create
a non-circulating special collection for a library. This would be a
trust which would eventually include my entire collection. I'm working
out in my head how to go about this. A topic for another thread.

I'm considering another approach, too: Trading locally, with other
book users/collectors. That way, i'm not dealing with pricing or
shipping - or computers ( which tend to eat too much time, and i really
prefer not to spend much of my life at them). I've been thinking some
kind of book cooperative might be possible. Yet another thread...

ER Lyon

Todd T wrote:

xerlome wrote:
Robert Hunter's 4 volume, 1894 "Encyclopedic Dictionary"

Wow, I've never seen anything like that in any of the thrift stores
near me, not in 20 years.

Really ?

It's not so surprising, though: 4 volumes with the word
"Encyclopedic" on them, sort of like some old Britannica volumes, not
especially spiffy looking. And when you open it up: just a damned
dictionary. "1894" in small numerals in an inconspicuous spot...

Oh, there i go giving away secrets to the resalers. I can't seem to
help it, i just tend to spill.

I suspect that it's not just dealers picking them up ahead of you. I
suspect that those who might have donated them before are now going
straight to eBay themselves as well.

Could be some are doing that. I'm not sure most donators are that
sort, though.

In any event, the only solution would be to ask people to stop trying
to make a buck where they have discovered an opportunity to do so.

That''s right, the imperative to charge the most the market will bear.
It's in the fabric of our econonmic system. There are laws against
making a buck certain ways, but i don't see any reasonable way to
legislate against simply "taking advantage." I don't think i'd want
to, either, being an anarchist at heart.

Maybe you could somehow spread the word that you are
interested in old dictionaries that are collecting dust in people's
attics in your town.

I'd like to do that, when i have time. I really do appreciate your
offering helpful ideas.

Rather than letting the markup knock you out,
take advantage of the folks like me who will pay *you* the markup.

You mean become a resaler ? I could get the markup ? Well... what
would you like ? It's a good offer. Could you give me some time to
think it over ? Thank you. I'll get back to you in a day or so. - -

No, no, now wait a minute here ! I don't need to think it over, i know
right now, and the answer is no ! No ! Doggone it ! You people
think the whole world revolves around you and your money ! Well, it
doesn't !

Selling things where they bring the most return is a pretty fundamental
process to be fighting.

Yes, i believe you are right. We make our own choices.

ER Lyon

Allison Turner wrote:

on 31 Dec 2005 00:49:43 -0800, xerlome stated:

I used to regularly buy books for 3
for a dollar at a local Salvation Army Store, great items, old and new,
every time i went. Now i rarely see any of that level of material. I
don't believe this is due to extreme increase of personal buying.
There are clearly vastly more resalers than a few years ago.

there are probably a lot of people
like you - not big dealers - who are buying up the very
inexpensive books from thrift stores and also putting them
online.

I think you are right. Resalers, eBayers.


I think it's perfectly reasonable of thrift
stores to "smart price" their books instead of selling them
four for a buck. One of our local stores has volunteers
working there, and donates all of their income to care for
the elderly. Why shouldn't they get $10 for a book instead
of $0.25, if people are willing to pay it?

That works for me. A happy medium, under the circumstances. The
lowest end of the income scale get's the shaft, of course, but a lot of
unfortunates get some help, too. And the resalers are likely to leave
more books behind.

I'm sorry, but my heart just doesn't bleed for collectors
like you (*and* me) who can no longer get an astonishing
deal every time we turn around. At least we're not 95 with
no one to care for us.

I know. Right now i am full time caregiver for my elderly mother who
is seriously crippled and in pain with arthritis. She's feels sorry
for her old school friend who has to be in a nursing home. She often
quotes Garrison Keillor: "It could be worse." When she or i start to
complain about our lot, she finally says: "We should be glad we don't
live in Iraq."

I'm not as evolved as that yet. I still say, "That doen't mean i have
no complaint !"

A range like $20 to $200 is not common
for identical books in equal condition. The high range is usually some
preposterously unreasonable price for the item.

It _is_ incredibly common. The only times I *don't* see
it are for some of the books for which there just aren't
a lot of copies available.

I can't argue with your examples. It must be different for different
types of books. I shouldn't try to make any general statements,
because nowadays i'm 90% looking for dictionaries and language books.
When i'm seeing a book offered commonly for $20 to $50, and then
there's someone who wants $225, i just dismiss it as preposterous.
When all i see for a long time is $175, $260, etc., then i see
something like $75, i might grab it thinking this may be the best i'll
see, maybe ever. I've given in to this 3 or 4 times. But with books
like these, i'm not seeing any $20.

Ironweed, by William Kennedy, paperback.
the price range is $0.49 to $45.63.

For a common paperback. Weird

I've often seen in book searches where someone is selling a used copy
of an in-print book for twice or more the current retail price of a new
copy of the same edition.

So why don't you just ignore them? They're just fools;
not worth jacking up your blood pressure over.

I can see why it may seem as if i suffer from high blood pressure. The
truth is, i'm not as rabid as i sound.

ER Lyon

At 3:36 pm Dec 31, 2005, Wildwood wrote:

Note: The author of this message requested that it not be archived.
This message will be removed from Groups in 6 days (Jan 7, 3:36 pm).

On 31 Dec 2005 00:49:43 -0800, in rec.collecting.books "xerlome" wrote:
Thrift stores do not throw out books before a lot of people have looked
at them. Sometimes i see the same stuff aound for years.

I guess that every thrift store in my area is an exception then. All
of them mark the books in some way (stickers or writing in the books)
and toss them into the trash after 1-4 weeks (the length of time
depends on the individual store).

I guess stores and regions differ. I don't get around to all the
thrift stores in the world. In this area (around a big city) a lot of
them are as i have described. I have lately seldom visited stores in
the area where i used to live, so things may have changed there.

I do not
believe that the sale of books at thrift stores (the ones bookdealers
would buy at least) depends upon bookdealers buying them.

Then your beliefs clash with the regional directors for the Salvation
Army and Goodwill thrifts stores local to me. They tried to raise
prices, the booksellers complain and stop buying en masse, the sales
drop, the managers drop the changes. Now, before making any changes,
they ask the people that they recognize as dealers if they will still
shop at their stores if changes are made before making those changes.

That's interesting. So, the sales drop following price hikes is due to
sellers leaving, and not to others or buyers in general leaving ?

Just hypothetically, i wonder what would happen if resalers (of all
levels) stopped buying books in thrift stores. Would the books just
sit there forever (or be thrown out) because readers and collectors
prefer to buy them from resalers for 10, 20, 100 times the price ? Or
would people catch on that there are lots of great books to be had at
these stores (which used to be bought up by the sellers) and shop there
more ? What would be the effect of the fact that these particular
books would then not be available from the resalers ?

I am not one
of just some few people who buy books for themselves. And we would not
prefer to pay 10 or 100 times the thrift prices to the resalers. If
people will buy the books from the resalers, thrift markets surely can
sell them, too.

The thrift stores actually PREFER to sell to resellers, since the odds
are much better that they will clear a large section of shelf space in
one transaction.

So, resalers *do* buy large numbers of thrift store books ?

I'm seeing views in posts both that they *do* and that they *don't*.

They aren't really buying of most of the good low-cost books, so i
shouldn't blame them for the dearth.

They clear whole sections of shelf space, so the thrift stores keep
their prices low for them.

I don't know which it is. Is it both ?

Bill
--
Meg: Thank you Jesus
Jesus: That wasn't me it was. .
Some Hindu God: It is okay. I am used to it.

On the general subject of knowing what or who it is we are talking
about:

Terms used in this thread for those who sell books (primarily used)
include bookdealers (book dealers), dealers, booksellers (book
sellers), sellers, resellers, and (my preference as an overall term for
those who buy to sell) resalers. I prefer "booksellers" when we talk
about both new and used, unless context is clear, but i associate the
term more with "new."

Any other considerations ?


ER Lyon

Bud Webster wrote:

I've tried very hard to keep from replying to this thread, even when
you began to compare used booksellers to safecrackers. Thieves, in
other words.

I was afraid someone might read it that way. It's not uncommon for
people to take rhetorical analogies literally. But this is not the
purpose of an analogy, which is to eccentuate a principle which is then
reapplied to the original subject without transferring its literal
content.

In this case, there was discussion about the basis for the relatively
high resale prices. One or more writers suggested that the expenses of
resaling justify the exponential markups. But since what was being
discussed was whether there was a need in the market for the resale at
all, as in moving an item from one market to another, the expenses of
resaling had nothing to do with that issue.

So an example that demonstrates that principle clearly, which may have
been more subtle and thus missed in the present context, serves to
spark recognition of the point being made in the issue at hand. "You
can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink" is, of course,
not about horses or water. Nor is this about safecrackers or thieves.


Much earlier, i did use the term "market theft" to characterize high
markup resaling, and later softened it to "taking advantage." I can
appreciate that my views may be felt as attacks. That's not what they
are in my mind. I am raising issues and discussing views.

I will say this, then no mo you have *no idea* what it takes in the
way of physical and financial resources to be able to operate a used
book service and make any kind of living at it. You don't.

Actually, i know enough to realise that i probably wouldn't make it. I
hope i am not generally misunderstood to believe that it isn't a lot of
work or that there aren't costs and risks. This is not what this
thread is about as far as i'm concerned. It's about issues related to
removing low-cost items from one market to sell them high in another.
I can appreciate that you don't agree with my views. .

And, from
what I've seen of your posts, you're unlikely to ever understand it.
Whether this is because you're unable to, or are simply unwilling to
do so because paying a higher price is inconvenient to you, I neither
know nor care.

Change "inconvenient" to "impossible." At least virtually so in my
circumstances.
..
I know of not one single wealthy bookseller who got that way solely
from selling used books, no matter what their mark-up is. Not ONE.

I am wondering if you believe i suggested that booksellers generally
get wealthy. I recall that i suggested (in a rhetorical way) that
buying cheap items from an existing market to sell them high in another
is tantamount to depriving the poor to sell to the rich. So the
resaler may not be rich, but is tageting a relatively well-heeled
clientele.

I know many who, after decades of hard work and study, can support
themselves and their families, but they'd all be better off
financially if they'd gone into IT twenty-five years ago.

I understand. I would have been better off collecting books 25 years
ago.

Quite the contrary, I know of hundreds and hundreds of booksellers who
could NOT make a living at it, either in brick-and-mortar shops or
on-line, because competition is so tough that they were unable to get
prices that would cover their expenses, and subsequently closed down
and sold off their stock. At thrift-store prices, I might add.

I don't doubt any of that. Independent business is tough.

I like bookstores. They are fun to look at, even if i can't buy much.
I also like book dealers and enjoy talking to them. I may even have
chatted with you at some point, i don't know.

ER Lyon

"xerlome" wrote in message
oups.com...

Do we really want to try to beat the poor to the bargains only to sell
them to the rich ?

Are you poor? Or do you only think that beating the poor to the bargains is
"moral" when it results in another trophy for your shelf?

on 1 Jan 2006 21:47:40 -0800, xerlome stated:

Todd T wrote:
I think a sizeable markup is fair,
and I also think that dealers add value, which I also should pay for.

I'm still perplexed by this mysterious "value" they add to books. I
can't tell the difference between a book from a thrift store and the
same one from a dealer. Unless you mean the feeling of greater
sacrifice you feel if you spend more for the latter. That i can relate
to.


Allow me to give you a very clear example of added value.

I have, currently on my shelves, 28 older texts on
Pharmacognosy (the scientific study of medicinal plants
and the drugs derived from them). I also have a few
works written in the last ten years or so, but I'm not
counting those as the classic works I'm collecting.

I have been collecting these titles for perhaps eight
years or so, and have purchased exactly *one* of these
at a used book store. I have never seen any others,
not at thrift stores, library sales, other used book
stores, the local yearly rummage sale, flea markets,
garage sales, etc. All of the rest I bought online,
mostly from dealers I found through used.addall.com or
from ebay.

I do not expect, ever, to find one at a thrift store.
I suppose there's the remote chance that I might,
similar to the single one I found in that bookstore
about an hour and a half east of me. But I am
absolutely not going to depend on combing the thrift
stores to find me the few that I don't have.

The dealers (and ebay sellers, whether they're grand-
mothers selling stuff from their attics, or big dealers)
have added significant value to the book. Sure, it'd
be nice to get one for a buck. But I'm perfectly
willing to pay $20 instead (or even, perhaps, $80 or
so, depending; I spent $112 on a classic three volume
german set in June that I have only seen at a library
otherwise) because the reality is that I will never see
these titles if dealers don't find them for me, or if
they don't appear, out of someone's garage, on ebay.

(Tangent: one of the things I like about ebay is that
anyone can sell me a book there; I have access to
people's attics that never would be the case otherwise,
and they get the money directly from me for their book.)


As others have mentioned, you've undoubtedly worked your
way past all of the abundant, cheap dictionaries. Now
what you want are the ones that generally wouldn't show
up at your local thrift store (although they sound like
they're still more common than my p'cog books). If you
want them, they're rarer, and you have to either trust
to luck (that you'll eventually run across them), or
pay the added value to a dealer who has found them for
you.


What I don't get is why you're whining because you can
no longer get the astonishing deals you've gotten in the
past. You really lucked out, man. You purchased a
thousand titles before the market shifted with the advent
of internet access - before everyone had a computer and
access to the titles you snatched up for 50 cents.

Now things are different, and the grandmother in Hoboken
who wants a copy of the dictionary she had as a kid can
find it online, because a dealer picked it up from the
thrift store before you saw it. Now you need to sit back,
slow down, appreciate your vaste library acquired at a
fraction of the current price, and carefully assess what,
of the higher-priced end of the market, you want to get
to round out your collection.


-Allison

in message ...
on 1 Jan 2006 21:47:40 -0800, xerlome stated:


I'm still perplexed by this mysterious "value" they add to books. I
can't tell the difference between a book from a thrift store and the
same one from a dealer.


Just as you can't tell the difference between a bottle of water
you happen to find buried in the sand in the desert, just as you're
on the point of dying of thirst, and all the identical bottles of
water on the shelf in your local supermarket, right?

In the case of the book, the difference is in the cost of the time
you'll need to spend, to find that particular book in a thrift store
in the first place.

a) Spend 20 hours at $4 per hour, or 10 hours at $8 per hour etc.
scouring thrift stores to eventually locate a copy of Blogg's Dictionary
priced at $1. Total cost £81.

As compared with -

b) Spend half an hour at $8 per hour (including phone charges),
phoning around specialist dealers (or using the Internet for free)
to locate a copy of Bloggs Dictionary priced at $40. Total cost $48.



michael adams

....

"xerlome" wrote in message
oups.com...
Kris Baker wrote:

"xerlome" wrote in message
When a resaler picks up a used book for, say, a dollar, and then sells
it for the price of a new book or even higher, we are paying the dealer
a four (or even five) digit percent profit for buying and holding an
already available book after the original buyer has paid the legitimate
costs and later decided to donate it to a charity thrift store or
public library. Even $20.00 is a 2000% markup. I see this as a kind
of market theft.

You're assuming that the new book dealer and used book
dealer invest the same amount of time and effort into selling
a book.

You cut out the part where i mentioned the retailer as only one of many
on the chain of people paid for their part in creating the book and
making it available. I might better have left the distributor and
retailer out of the list and my point would have been clearer. Up to
that point, the cost of the book goes to those who actually create and
make the book. After that, it is primaily a matter of moving it
around. That can be pretty costly, but i'd like to see those costs
kept to a minimum.

If I sell new books, I have to:
1 - order them from the publisher
2 - open the box and put them on the shelf
3 - return them for credit if they don't sell

That's true. And it's probably done by an employee on a salary who
gets paid either way. Right ?

If I sell used books, I have to:
1 - know possible locations they can be found

I know how difficult that is. I generally look in the yellow pages to
find the locations of thrift stores (as well as used book stores). I
look in the paper for yard sales and other sales. Libraries post their
sales, etc.

Most of those yellow page thrift store listings are out of date.
If you're depending upon your local area to fulfill your needs,
you are fortunate to do so. Last year, I travelled to nine
states seeking and buying (not all books), and five of those
trips have not broken even yet.

2 - go search those places (time, fuel, effort)

All part of the added value. I understand. But if you have a store,
and i bring books to you and tell you i want extra money because i
added value when i invested my time, fuel, and effort finding the books
originally, and again bringing them to you, what would you say ?
a) That's fair. I'm always willing to pay for added value. Saves me
adding it myself.
b) Ha ! That's a good one ! - Hey Pat ! - Tell Pat what you just told
me.
c) I'll have to see your resaler's ID or i can't validate the added
value.
d) Would you be willing to sell me just the book and hold on to the
added value ?
e) Other (suggestions welcome).

e) I'd negotiate a fair price for both of us, and kiss your feet.
Even though I sell only online, I'd much rather have people show
up at my door with items "ready to sell", than to have to take
time away from selling to bookscout.

or pay a scout

A scout ! That's an idea, i'll have to try that ! A boy scout or a
girl scout on vacation, maybe they'd work for peanuts !

Oh, pl0nk. This is useless. You claim to know all about
bookselling, but have no idea what a scout is.

Kris

Mr Lyon, I will say it again: you have NO IDEA what it takes to be a
bookseller. Nothing in your reply to me indicates anything else.

Booksellers are NOT in business to assure you a cheap and steady
source of whatever you're collecting. They - we - are in business to
be in business, to make a living, however precarious. If that means I
buy cheap and sell high, so be it. If it means that those people who
are unable to pay my prices can't do so, that's a damn shame, but if I
sell to them at prices they can afford, how long will I realistically
be able to do so? What good would I do them to be in business for six
months? Or three? In the meantime, what do I tell my landlord? My
wife, my children? They should be proud of me because I'm selling
rare books at bottom-of-the-barrel prices so poor collectors can have
a more valuable estate to leave their children than I can?

I've been doing without certain specific items in my own collection(s)
for more years than I care to think about. Does this mean that the
sellers who have those books for sale at prices I can't meet are
thieves? And, yes, you chose the comparison, Mr Lyon, not me or
anyone else. Whether or not you will admit to it, you placed
booksellers like me and many others here in the same category as those
who break open safes for their living. In other words, THIEVES.

There have been times when I've bought books for a few dollars that
were worth, on the open market, several hundreds. Did I sell them for
$5, and be satisfied with $3 profit? I did NOT, and neither would any
other knowledgeable bookseller. I might not charge top whack for it,
but if selling a book that cost me $2, and is worth $300, for $200
enables me to keep other worthy, if not as "hot", books in inventory
so that more collectors can find what they want on my shelves, then
that's what I do to remain in business.

I will say it again, one last time: YOU KNOW NOTHING about what it
takes to be a bookseller, and you have little room to criticize.

I'm done with this now, and you should be.