Europeans are Slow

"Colin Kynoch" wrote:
One reason I stopped collecting US coins was slabs.

There are still many raw coins in the US market. Is price the other reason?

--Chris




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"note.boy" wrote:
Slabbing will NEVER be popular in the UK as the coin grading system here
is very long established, and unchanging.

A coin IS unc, or it's NOT, end of story. Nice and simple.

Odd that collectors in the UK find so little to talk about. Are you sure?

--Chris




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"Chris S" chris(at)imt.xohost.com wrote in message
...
"Colin Kynoch" wrote:
We have had a slabbing company in Australia, and let's just say it
crashed and burned, as there was no real demand.

As I've said, slabbing should be of no interest in Australia, because the
size of the upscale Australian market is too small. When your market goes
upscale, there will be demand. If 5% of a low-priced market is interested,
it suggests the seeds of demand are there. The fact that one misguided
start-up entered the market too early says little about what will happen if
and when your market grows.

--Chris


Hehehe

....not to mention the difficulty of fitting all them dagnabbit slabs into our pet
kangaroo's pouch for the long hop back from the trading post.




We ain't *that* small no more, y'know.

*Most* of us have running water and 'lectricity

(and sarcasm).

We Aussies have air pollution, traffic jams, frivolous litigation, drive-by
shootings, heroin addiction, racist frenzies, corrupt and inept legislative
representation, etc etc.

No reason why slabs for coins shouldn't fit in just fine here.

'Cepting as how we're ornery Aussies. Rather feed our newborns to a croc' than
entomb our coins. Market size done got nuffink to do with it.

Jeff
(sweltering in late summer heatwave in Sydney)

"Colin Kynoch" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 19:12:35 -0500, "Bruce Remick"
wrote:


"Colin Kynoch" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 11:22:24 -0600, "Chris S"
chris(at)imt.xohost.com wrote:


We have had a slabbing company in Australia, and let's just say it
crashed and burned, as there was no real demand.


That's too bad.

No it would have been detrimental to our market, just as it has to the
US one.

How do you know what would/could have been? And you're intimately familiar
with the US market?


There seems to be a lot of demand in the US. I guess this
way everyone's satisfied, eh?

Hmm. One reason I stopped collecting US coins was slabs.

If the only US coins you could find were in slabs, you need to get out more,
and to different places.

Bruce

"A.Gent" wrote in message
u...

"Chris S" chris(at)imt.xohost.com wrote in message
...
"Colin Kynoch" wrote:
We have had a slabbing company in Australia, and let's just say it
crashed and burned, as there was no real demand.

As I've said, slabbing should be of no interest in Australia, because
the
size of the upscale Australian market is too small. When your market
goes
upscale, there will be demand. If 5% of a low-priced market is
interested,
it suggests the seeds of demand are there. The fact that one misguided
start-up entered the market too early says little about what will happen
if
and when your market grows.

--Chris


Hehehe

...not to mention the difficulty of fitting all them dagnabbit slabs into
our pet
kangaroo's pouch for the long hop back from the trading post.




We ain't *that* small no more, y'know.

*Most* of us have running water and 'lectricity

(and sarcasm).

We Aussies have air pollution, traffic jams, frivolous litigation,
drive-by
shootings, heroin addiction, racist frenzies, corrupt and inept
legislative
representation, etc etc.

No reason why slabs for coins shouldn't fit in just fine here.

'Cepting as how we're ornery Aussies. Rather feed our newborns to a croc'
than
entomb our coins. Market size done got nuffink to do with it.

Nice to hear from a rational Aussie for a change.

Bruce

"Colin Kynoch" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 19:32:31 -0500, "Bruce Remick"
wrote:


"Jorg Lueke" wrote in message
news
On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 05:20:16 GMT, Colin Kynoch

wrote:

On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 22:28:15 -0600, Jorg Lueke

wrote:

Umm no. A grade is an opinion not a fact. Opinions can and do
change.
No one should rely on any one opinion for a grade excepting perhaps
their
own. But, slab grading has made it harder for dealers to sucker
newbies
with sliders, whizzed coins, AU as BU and so forth.

There is this wonderful think called caveat emptor.

If a dealer is crooked he can still sucker a newbie. He could sell
him an ACG slabbed coin.

To me that is even worse, because he is using the very protection you
are claiming for the newbie to sucker him.

At least if he is selleing a raw coin it can be considered as the
dealers opinion.

All slabs do is let dealers and others selling coins abdicate
responsiblity.

No, whether a dealer is crooked or not has nothing to do with slabs.
Some
people are just sleazy and they'll find a way to take advantage of
people
regardless. Slabs, in my opinion, have made it harder for dealers to
pass
off overgraded and overcleaned coins. Does this mean it makes sense to
x10 for a MS68 as opposed to an MS67? Not to me, but the person is at
least getting what's on the label.

A slabbed coin tells me that at least one other qualified person
besides
the coin dealer agrees with the grade. If I look at it and agree with
the
grade, that makes three. If the price is comparable to what I would pay
for
a raw coin, I would buy it and have the option of leaving it in the slab
or
cracking it out.
I do like the fact that I can be confident a slabbed coin is genuine
and
that it hasn't been cleaned.

Can you?

Certainly. When I stick with PCGS or NGC-graded coins.


How can you be sure?

Trust. How can you be sure your surgeon didn't make a few mistakes while
you were under? your petrol really is the octane it says on the pump? The
waiter who just disappeared for a couple minutes with your credit card is an
honest person?


Because it is in a bit of plastic with a hologram?

No. Because of who put it in that bit of plastic with the hologram.


Both more easily reproduced than the contents.

Has anyone bothered to do this yet? Let's handle that if or when it
happens. Meanwhile, the sky is not falling.


And what of the coin grading companies that slab cleaned, coins?

Simple. I generally avoid them. Not very hard to do.


And what of the counterfeit coins that even PCGS have slabbed?

I avoid them, too. A couple of blatant mistakes in hundreds of thousands of
coins slabbed doesn't concern me.


You sure are placing a lot of faith in a piece of paper within a
plastic capsule.


It's not *blind* faith. The grade on the slab of the reputable services is
generally respected. Hard to dispute that. As a collector, the grade I
wrote on my cardboard coin holder might be questioned when I came to sell
it, even though I might have put as much study into determining the coin's
grade as the PCGS expert.


I don't like the fact that slabbing seems to
have begat the recent MS68, 69, 70 price frenzy with modern mint
products.

And that seems to be the main reason for slabbing.

The original reason for slabbing has been pointed out often-- the sight
unseen investment market. Slabbing has indeed evolved from there to include
those modern coin ultra-grades to entice and accommodate those who insist
on the ultimate. You can play that game or not. Obviously, both of us
choose not to.


I would love to see what the breakup is between Modern mint products
and non Modern Mint products.


For the most part, I don't feel comfortable or the need to play higher
than
MS65 with circulation coins. My proof sets are all simply proof-- MS70
in
my opinion--I don't need a third party to point out a detracting lint
mark
or a few atoms out of line.

I must say Bruce from your comments I can't see why you would buy
anything in a slab?

For the bulk of my collecting interests, I don't. But I have sent off
several keys to be authenticated, graded, and slabbed to add some authority
to the grade and to give me comfort. I also have bought several MS older
coins in slabs simply because I liked them and because the price was in line
with what a comparably-graded raw coin might bring. I would not pass on a
coin I like just because it's in a slab.

Bruce

"Bruce Remick" wrote in message
news:GaKWb.53345$u_6.41497@lakeread04...

"A.Gent" wrote in message
u...
...snip self...
'Cepting as how we're ornery Aussies. Rather feed our newborns to a croc'
than
entomb our coins. Market size done got nuffink to do with it.

Nice to hear from a rational Aussie for a change.

Bruce


Who me?
Rational?

Nahhhh.
I've always figgered myself as a vulgar fraction.

1/Jeff = div(0) error

On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 06:15:25 -0500, "Bruce Remick"
wrote:


Nice to hear from a rational Aussie for a change.


Rational Aussie, isn't that an oxymoron, you know... like bagpipe
music, military intelligence etc...

On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 19:16:45 -0500, "Bruce Remick"
wrote:


I have no problems with coins being authenticated, although I think if
you can't do it yourself, you shouldn't be buying the coin.

Would the same apply to collectors of autographs? Diamonds? Impressionist
paintings?

Yes

We can't all be experts.

No, but if you have a hobby, you should know _something_ about
it, which I would think include something about determining
authenticity. After all your hobby should be collecting X, not
buying X.

Are you saying that if one wants to
select coins for a type set he first must become qualified as a grader as
well as an expert in recognizing copies, counterfeits, altered coins in each
series, etc.?

I would hope they know the basics of grading each series. And
the counterfeit detection will basically be, to a first
approximation, the same for all the different series, as there
are only so many ways one can make a counterfeit. And of course,
if type collector decides to buy a certain coin, they should also
know something about that, too. I mean, you really only _need_ a
couple of grading guides, a couple of general books (red book,
Breen, etc), a couple of counterfeit detector guides and perhaps
a few books on individual series that really interest you if
you're a type collector. You don't need to be able to know each
and every die variety of counterfeits in a certain series made.

As much as most of us would like to have all of these skills,
it would hardly be practical.

I think you're making it sound harder than it actually is.

As for me, I usually buy the coin first. If
it really intrigues me, then I buy the book and use it as a reference to add
more coins in that series to my collection.

For more expensive coins that you are not familiar with, this is
of course a bad idea. How would you even know that the price is
acceptable, for one thing?


--
Ed. Stoebenau
a #143

On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 19:32:31 -0500, "Bruce Remick"
wrote:

A slabbed coin tells me that at least one other qualified person besides
the coin dealer agrees with the grade.

Umm, how do you know the dealer agrees with the slab grade? How
do you even know the slabber would still agree with the grade,
for that matter?

If I look at it and agree with the
grade, that makes three. If the price is comparable to what I would pay for
a raw coin, I would buy it and have the option of leaving it in the slab or
cracking it out.

Why does it matter what grade the slab says it is? If the price
agrees with what grade an informed _buyer_ thinks it is, what
more _really_ matters?

I do like the fact that I can be confident a slabbed coin is genuine and
that it hasn't been cleaned.

But not significantly more than by just buying from a legitimate
expert dealer, and that's for the authenticity issue. On the
cleaning issue, you must remember that the slabbers do this whole
"market acceptable" song and dance.


--
Ed. Stoebenau
a #143