Watermarks

I was reading about watermarks on stamps tonight and the book says their
main purpose is to make if more difficult to forge stamps. This spawns
a couple of questions.

1- is forgery such a problem in the postage stamp world that watermarks
are *really* necessary?

2- any idea what percentage of stamps from any particular country have
watermarks, or is this typically reserved for the more expensive
denominations? I'm particularly curious about US stamps, however info
on other countries would be interesting to hear about too. I know that
the US is not the only country with thieves and forgersgrin.

3- I note that the watermarks are typically located by soaking in a
solution, but it would seem that this is only effective AFTER the stamp
has been used, thus rendering the security purpose mute. I assume that
there are other more effective means of validating watermarks on stamps
that the USPS or other postal authorities use, scanning lights with
computers that validate against a dataabase or something similar thats
probably way too expensive for the common collector to own.

4- are watermarks in general listed someplace by country and stamp
denomination for public info purposes (website, book etc) or is it up to
us to 'find' them?

This whole watermark thing is interesting so I thought I'd throw it out
to the group and learn from the experts here. I can understand forgers
making counterfeit money but stamps? Thats a lot of work for very
little profit it would seem, or maybe I'm all wet and don't understand
the whole picture. TIA

this is a foggy subject.

The Dutch stamps had watermarks between 1924 and 1974 [not counting
the first 1852 stamps] allegedly because of counterfeiting. But the
watermarks were only applied in the case of photogravure printing.
The high values in recess/intaglio did not receive watermarks, the
lowest definitives values in offset-litho [1924-48] did get them,
so did the medium value definitives in photogravure, but hardly any
commemorative of surtaxed stamps were on watermarked paper.

I think that since 1948 the Dutch PTT continued using watermarked paper
for the medium values definitives purely for routine - not rational -
reasons.

So the answer is no, the watermark wasn't really necessary, the only
forgeries of Dutch definitives were made way before 1924, and just 1 or 2
low values were involved.

A much worse damage to the Dutch PTT was the illegal smuggling of sheets
of stamps out of the security printer's plant in the same period...


gtx, Rein

On 30 Oct 2003 20:46:11 , Grandpa wrote:
I was reading about watermarks on stamps tonight and the book says their
main purpose is to make if more difficult to forge stamps. This spawns
a couple of questions.

1- is forgery such a problem in the postage stamp world that watermarks
are *really* necessary?

2- any idea what percentage of stamps from any particular country have
watermarks, or is this typically reserved for the more expensive
denominations? I'm particularly curious about US stamps, however info
on other countries would be interesting to hear about too. I know that
the US is not the only country with thieves and forgersgrin.

From: Grandpa jsdebooATcomcast.net
Newsgroups: rec.collecting.stamps.discuss
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 20:46:11 -0700
Subject: Watermarks

I was reading about watermarks on stamps tonight and the book says their
main purpose is to make if more difficult to forge stamps. This spawns
a couple of questions.

1- is forgery such a problem in the postage stamp world that watermarks
are *really* necessary?

Absolutely. A great many stamps have been forged, almost from the time they
were invented right up until recent years. Sometimes rare stamps are forged
for sale to collectors, sometimes common stamps are forged for sale as bulk
postage. I have read about both German and Canadian definitives being forged
in recent years, and I'm sure there are many more.

2- any idea what percentage of stamps from any particular country have
watermarks, or is this typically reserved for the more expensive
denominations? I'm particularly curious about US stamps, however info
on other countries would be interesting to hear about too. I know that
the US is not the only country with thieves and forgersgrin.

I can't imagine anyone being concerned about this statistic, which would
have little use. Watermarking was common on stamps in the 19th and early
20th century, but is less common now. The information about particular
watermarks is readily available in catalogues. See below.

3- I note that the watermarks are typically located by soaking in a
solution, but it would seem that this is only effective AFTER the stamp
has been used, thus rendering the security purpose mute. I assume that
there are other more effective means of validating watermarks on stamps
that the USPS or other postal authorities use, scanning lights with
computers that validate against a dataabase or something similar thats
probably way too expensive for the common collector to own.

As far as I know, few if any modern US stamps -- and few other modern stamps
for that matter -- are watermarked. In any event, watermarks on mint stamps
can be seen using watermark fluid, which does not effect water-soluble gum.
There are mechanical devices and viewers available as well.

4- are watermarks in general listed someplace by country and stamp
denomination for public info purposes (website, book etc) or is it up to
us to 'find' them?

All stamp catalogues list common watermarks and, often, varieties. Such
information is necessary to determine value of many older stamps.

This whole watermark thing is interesting so I thought I'd throw it out
to the group and learn from the experts here. I can understand forgers
making counterfeit money but stamps? Thats a lot of work for very
little profit it would seem, or maybe I'm all wet and don't understand
the whole picture. TIA

Huge amounts of money are involved in stamp collecting. Most of us in this
group don't deal in the rarified air of high-end auction houses. However, if
a forger wanted to produce several hundred thousand inexpensive stamps for
postage, he would do quite nicely. In any event, you'll find lots more
information about watermarks (and forgeries) in basic stamp collecting books
that you can find in most public libraries. I'm not saying that you
shouldn't ask questions here, just that there are many avenues to learn
about stamps. Have you tried Google? The introduction to the Scott catalogue
contains a wealth of information about watermarks and other stamp-related
topics.

Bob Ingraham

"Grandpa" jsdebooATcomcast.net wrote in message
...

....snip
1- is forgery such a problem in the postage stamp world that watermarks
are *really* necessary?....snip

Watermarks was mostly used in the early stamps. Stamps are "valuable" paper,
and when stamps was introduced in the 1840s, the postal authorities probably
looked at how other "valuable" paper forms wa

The paper for the early danish stamps was delivered from a special
manufacturer, and there was strict control with the amounts of paper
delivered to the printer. The paper always had watermark and thus it was
much more difficult for the printer to print "his own stamps". After the
printer, the sheets went through a control section in the Post. Its highly
likely they checked the sheets for watermarks, to see if the printer had
"exchanged" a couple of sheets with ones printed on "his own" paper (without
correct watermark).

--
Rene

Bob Ingraham wrote:



......



Absolutely. A great many stamps have been forged, almost from the time they
were invented right up until recent years. Sometimes rare stamps are forged
for sale to collectors, sometimes common stamps are forged for sale as bulk
postage. I have read about both German and Canadian definitives being forged
in recent years, and I'm sure there are many more.


..........

Oh yes - there are MANY more.... :-(

These websites will show you that the problem might be just as big today
as it was 100 years ago...

http://www.scads.org/

http://www.sheryll.net/Forgeries/Forgeries_article.htm

http://www.slingshotvenus.com/stamps/fakes.html

Just think about what will happen when the mass reproductions of sellers
like atdinvest comes back to the market as single stamps.....!


Buyer beware!
Bjorn B-(

"Grandpa" jsdebooATcomcast.net wrote in message
...

As Bob has pointed out earlier, commercial watermark fluid will not hurt
mint stamps. Scott catalogs show pictures of how many of the watermarks
will appear. You can view the watermark by placing the stamp face down in a
small black watermark tray (an inexpensive purchase), pour a small amount of
the watermark fluid into the tray---enough to cover the stamp---and the
watermark, if present, should readily be visible.

Be aware that the fluid can have a fairly strong odor, so you should do this
in a well-ventilated area, being careful not to inhale any more of the fumes
than necessary. The fluid will quickly evaporate, so don't leave the fluid
bottle open any longer than needed.

Also, many of the stamps will only have a portion of the watermark on
them---sometimes only a very small portion. The Scott diagram will show you
why this happens.

In addition, the watermarks can be extremely hard to detect on some stamps,
especially those that are orange or yellow. I'm *still* trying to find the
watermarks on some stamps of those colors and have about concluded that they
just don't exist!

Mike

4- are watermarks in general listed someplace by country and stamp
denomination for public info purposes (website, book etc) or is it up to
us to 'find' them?


Try this link for info on U.S watermarks -
http://www.1847usa.com/Watermarks.htm

Bob Ingraham wrote:

snip
2- any idea what percentage of stamps from any particular country have
watermarks, or is this typically reserved for the more expensive
denominations? I'm particularly curious about US stamps, however info
on other countries would be interesting to hear about too. I know that
the US is not the only country with thieves and forgersgrin.

I can't imagine anyone being concerned about this statistic, which would
have little use. Watermarking was common on stamps in the 19th and early
20th century, but is less common now. The information about particular
watermarks is readily available in catalogues. See below.

Where I was going here was if ALL stamps from any given country were
watermarked or just a few? It seems fruitless to go through all this
effort for a measley 37¢ (US) for example. Maybe if you're a large
business with a boatload of daily mailings, however that in itself poses
much easier methods of legal stamping.

Now forging old valuable stamps is a whole different subject. I was
just wondering about common everyday stamps.

4- are watermarks in general listed someplace by country and stamp
denomination for public info purposes (website, book etc) or is it up to
us to 'find' them?

All stamp catalogues list common watermarks and, often, varieties. Such
information is necessary to determine value of many older stamps.

Thanks, I'll dig deep into the Scotts Specialized Catalogue I got from
the library.

This whole watermark thing is interesting so I thought I'd throw it out
to the group and learn from the experts here. I can understand forgers
making counterfeit money but stamps? Thats a lot of work for very
little profit it would seem, or maybe I'm all wet and don't understand
the whole picture. TIA

information about watermarks (and forgeries) in basic stamp collecting books
that you can find in most public libraries. I'm not saying that you
shouldn't ask questions here, just that there are many avenues to learn
about stamps. Have you tried Google? The introduction to the Scott catalogue
contains a wealth of information about watermarks and other stamp-related
topics.

A general stamp collecting book I got from the library is exactly what
got me going on the thread, however is was quite sparse on info relating
to watermarks. Other than the Scotts Catalogues, we have a total of 6
stamp collecting books in our library system (I'm on #4), and 4
periodicals or which I can easily access only 1. I'll Google too as
well as Scotts, just thought I'd get some 'unauthored' opinions here
from US as well as foreign (to me) folks and perhaps spawn some more
interest etc in the newsgroup by starting a new thread.

That is interesting, thanks. I'd no idea that special 'controlled'
paper was used for stamps - similar in concept to what we in the US use
for our paper currency. I know its different but the concept is
basically the same.

R.K.Jorgensen wrote:

The paper for the early danish stamps was delivered from a special
manufacturer, and there was strict control with the amounts of paper
delivered to the printer. The paper always had watermark and thus it was
much more difficult for the printer to print "his own stamps". After the
printer, the sheets went through a control section in the Post. Its highly
likely they checked the sheets for watermarks, to see if the printer had
"exchanged" a couple of sheets with ones printed on "his own" paper (without
correct watermark).

--
Rene