Who says there are no bargains to be had on eBay?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=8336090254

gloat

--
Bob Hairgrove

Bob Hairgrove wrote:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=8336090254

gloat

--
Bob Hairgrove



(?)

To me the coin grades VF judging solely by the amount of wear to the
hair. That means (IMHO) you paid $16.5 +/- a couple in exchange and a
couple more on postage for a coin that is valued as $20 in my copy of
KM. Maybe i'm being a bit too strict with it's grade, but i'm struggling
to get the concept of `bargain' here?

Nice coin in any event.

Ian

On Wed, 21 Sep 2005 17:00:06 GMT, Ian
wrote:

Bob Hairgrove wrote:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=8336090254

gloat

--
Bob Hairgrove



(?)

To me the coin grades VF judging solely by the amount of wear to the
hair. That means (IMHO) you paid $16.5 +/- a couple in exchange and a
couple more on postage for a coin that is valued as $20 in my copy of
KM. Maybe i'm being a bit too strict with it's grade, but i'm struggling
to get the concept of `bargain' here?

Nice coin in any event.

Ian

Krause prices are way too low for most Russian coins these days. I
think the exchange rate of the U.S. dollar vs. most European
currencies has something to do with it, as well as the fact that
Russians are buying these at auctions like hotcakes nowadays.

As to the grade, the hair is always the first thing to go with these
coins, but the hairlines are still quite clear. The reverse also seems
to have a lot of detail. I would give it an XF myself.

1911 poltinas have relatively low mintage numbers and, although they
are not terribly scarce, do command a premium well above what is
listed in Krause. In the Uzdenikov catalogue, for example, it has a
relative scarcity rating of a dot.

I would have bid up to $50 for it.

--
Bob Hairgrove

In a recent message Bob Hairgrove wrote:

On Wed, 21 Sep 2005 17:00:06 GMT, Ian
wrote:

Bob Hairgrove wrote:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=8336090254

gloat

--
Bob Hairgrove



(?)

To me the coin grades VF judging solely by the amount of wear to the
hair. That means (IMHO) you paid $16.5 +/- a couple in exchange and a
couple more on postage for a coin that is valued as $20 in my copy of
KM. Maybe i'm being a bit too strict with it's grade, but i'm struggling
to get the concept of `bargain' here?

Nice coin in any event.

Ian

Krause prices are way too low for most Russian coins these days. I
think the exchange rate of the U.S. dollar vs. most European
currencies has something to do with it, as well as the fact that
Russians are buying these at auctions like hotcakes nowadays.

As to the grade, the hair is always the first thing to go with these
coins, but the hairlines are still quite clear. The reverse also seems
to have a lot of detail. I would give it an XF myself.

I think this demonstrates that the UK idea of EF is equivalent to a US AU
and VF to a US XF.


1911 poltinas have relatively low mintage numbers and, although they
are not terribly scarce, do command a premium well above what is
listed in Krause. In the Uzdenikov catalogue, for example, it has a
relative scarcity rating of a dot.

I do not doubt that it is an uncommon coin, and I am delighted that
you are pleased with it. All I am saying is that this thread
demonstrates admirably the way that UK and US grades, very similar
when I started collecting in 1962, have now significantly diverged.

This, in my opinion, is because of the grade inflation in the US
induced by the slabbing companies.

--
Tony Clayton
Coins of the UK : http://www.coinsoftheuk.info
Sent using RISCOS on an Acorn Strong Arm RiscPC
.... To hell with the prime directive, let's kill something.

Bob Hairgrove wrote:
On Wed, 21 Sep 2005 17:00:06 GMT, Ian
wrote:


Bob Hairgrove wrote:


http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=8336090254

gloat

--
Bob Hairgrove



(?)

To me the coin grades VF judging solely by the amount of wear to the
hair. That means (IMHO) you paid $16.5 +/- a couple in exchange and a
couple more on postage for a coin that is valued as $20 in my copy of
KM. Maybe i'm being a bit too strict with it's grade, but i'm struggling
to get the concept of `bargain' here?

Nice coin in any event.

Ian


Krause prices are way too low for most Russian coins these days. I
think the exchange rate of the U.S. dollar vs. most European
currencies has something to do with it, as well as the fact that
Russians are buying these at auctions like hotcakes nowadays.

As to the grade, the hair is always the first thing to go with these
coins, but the hairlines are still quite clear. The reverse also seems
to have a lot of detail. I would give it an XF myself.

1911 poltinas have relatively low mintage numbers and, although they
are not terribly scarce, do command a premium well above what is
listed in Krause. In the Uzdenikov catalogue, for example, it has a
relative scarcity rating of a dot.

I would have bid up to $50 for it.

--
Bob Hairgrove


I'm wondering (given how this auction venue isn't exactly unheard of)
why it is that the coin didn't sell for much higher than it did? To me,
no way is it any better than VF even though the reverse looks almost
Unc. The final auction price seems more to validate my grading than
yours. ;-)

Putting the shoe on the other foot, If you were trying to get $50 for
it....which venue would you sell it through that's going to attract all
these Russian buyers that apparently don't look at ebay? :-)

PS...i'm just teasing you to an extent here, but i'm serious about the
grade and value.

Ian

On Wed, 21 Sep 2005 20:11:40 GMT, Ian
wrote:

I'm wondering (given how this auction venue isn't exactly unheard of)
why it is that the coin didn't sell for much higher than it did? To me,
no way is it any better than VF even though the reverse looks almost
Unc. The final auction price seems more to validate my grading than
yours. ;-)

I wonder, too. But strange things happen sometimes. Even 1912 and 1913
poltiny, arguably the most common dates for these coins, usually go
for a bit more money than this one did in similar condition.

Putting the shoe on the other foot, If you were trying to get $50 for
it....which venue would you sell it through that's going to attract all
these Russian buyers that apparently don't look at ebay? :-)

There are plenty of collectors (Russians and others) who buy and sell
Russian coins on eBay, so that venue is fine with me. The pictures of
the coin leave a lot to be desired. I think that the coin probably
looks better than the pictures, in which case I would try to make
better and larger ones.

Besides, the auction was only up for three days. Leave it up for a
week and see what the final price is ... probably it would be closer
to $50 than $20.

PS...i'm just teasing you to an extent here, but i'm serious about the
grade and value.

There are some similar coins on this page for comparison:

http://www.numismat.ru/cgi-bin/enauc...asc&material=3

What do you think of their grading standards? And the prices? Am I
really that far off the mark?

--
Bob Hairgrove

Bob Hairgrove wrote:

http://www.numismat.ru/cgi-bin/enauc...asc&material=3

What do you think of their grading standards? And the prices? Am I
really that far off the mark?

--
Bob Hairgrove


Sadly even though I studied Russian many years ago, I rarely practised
it and it has long since fallen into total disuse. I'd probably still be
able to order up some coffee or a plate of beetroot soup in Russia, and
be able to tell people where I live or where i wanted to go, but being
honest, I just don't understand the written language anymore. It takes
me so long to transliterate from cyrillic to english these days that I
just can't be bothered trying. So, in other words I can't tell how they
have been graded by the people who put up the web site.

I can say however that (IMHO) lot 395 and 402 are at least a grade and a
bit higher than the one you won. I'd call them almost uncirculated
(or good EF) due to the fact that I can
still see some wear (minimal though it may be) to the hair. The reverses
are stunningly beautiful and near perfect to my eyes and tastes, but.....

I don't claim to understand the pricing either (?). :-(

Ian

On Wed, 21 Sep 2005 22:00:01 GMT, Ian
wrote:

I can say however that (IMHO) lot 395 and 402 are at least a grade and a
bit higher than the one you won. I'd call them almost uncirculated
(or good EF) due to the fact that I can
still see some wear (minimal though it may be) to the hair. The reverses
are stunningly beautiful and near perfect to my eyes and tastes, but.....

I don't claim to understand the pricing either (?). :-(

Unfortunately, I discovered that the link I posted depicts proof
coins, which might explain the rather exhorbitant prices. Since I
don't want to compare apples with oranges, here is another link to
items in the online store which appear to be regular strikes:

http://www.numismat.ru/cgi-bin/ensho...l=4&material=0

In particular, there are two poltiny here -- 1895 and 1914. The 1914
coin (the last year they were minted before the revolution) is
somewhat more common than 1911, although much rarer than 1912 or 1913
-- even though prices are exactly the same in Krause! Here is the
description (in Russian) followed by my translation:

"50 ËÏÐÅÅË 1914 ÇÏÄÁ, áç-÷ó. óÅÒÅÂÒÏ. óÏÈÒÁÎÎÏÓÔØ ÐÒÅ×ÏÓÈÏÄÎÁÑ.
õÚÄÅÎÉËÏ×# 2208."

Translation:

"50 kopeks 1914, [design:] A.G. [A.A. Griliches], [mintmaster
initials:] V.S. [Viktor Smirnov]. Silver. Choice BU condition.
Uzdenikov #2208."

The Russian word "ÓÏÈÒÁÎÎÏÓÔØ" means "intact condition", which I take
to mean "uncirculated". The only other Russian-language coin catalog I
have which has grading terminology is the old Rylov/Sobolin book.
There they only distinguish three grades -- good, fine and extremely
fine.

Does anyone have a list of the current coin grading terms in Russian,
BTW?

I find it extremely difficult to grade these, and also the 1 rouble
pieces, solely by the obverse. The hair is often flat and weakly
struck, the design itself tends to reinforce this impression, and even
uncirculated specimens are usually heavily bag-marked (probably from
the long, bumpy train/coach rides from the St. Petersburg mint to the
banks in Moscow, etc.??). The reverse, however, is fantastically rich
in detail. I find that looking at the uppermost crown and the eagle's
scepter tells me all I need to know about wear, whereas the hair can
be very misleading. But that is just my personal grading experience,
and I am certainly no expert (although I think I am getting better at
it).

The price for the above coin is listed at 3,480 roubles. There is a
currency converter at http://www.oanda.com which converts this amount
to $122.76). Krause lists them (1914 poltiny) even in BU at a mere
$45, so there seems to be some discrepancy in Krause's prices.

Thanks for looking!

--
Bob Hairgrove

Bob Hairgrove wrote:
On Wed, 21 Sep 2005 22:00:01 GMT, Ian
wrote:


I can say however that (IMHO) lot 395 and 402 are at least a grade and a
bit higher than the one you won. I'd call them almost uncirculated
(or good EF) due to the fact that I can
still see some wear (minimal though it may be) to the hair. The reverses
are stunningly beautiful and near perfect to my eyes and tastes, but.....

I don't claim to understand the pricing either (?). :-(


Unfortunately, I discovered that the link I posted depicts proof
coins, which might explain the rather exhorbitant prices. Since I
don't want to compare apples with oranges, here is another link to
items in the online store which appear to be regular strikes:

http://www.numismat.ru/cgi-bin/ensho...l=4&material=0

In particular, there are two poltiny here -- 1895 and 1914. The 1914
coin (the last year they were minted before the revolution) is
somewhat more common than 1911, although much rarer than 1912 or 1913
-- even though prices are exactly the same in Krause! Here is the
description (in Russian) followed by my translation:

"50 ËÏÐÅÅË 1914 ÇÏÄÁ, áç-÷ó. óÅÒÅÂÒÏ. óÏÈÒÁÎÎÏÓÔØ ÐÒÅ×ÏÓÈÏÄÎÁÑ.
õÚÄÅÎÉËÏ×# 2208."

Translation:

"50 kopeks 1914, [design:] A.G. [A.A. Griliches], [mintmaster
initials:] V.S. [Viktor Smirnov]. Silver. Choice BU condition.
Uzdenikov #2208."

The Russian word "ÓÏÈÒÁÎÎÏÓÔØ" means "intact condition", which I take
to mean "uncirculated". The only other Russian-language coin catalog I
have which has grading terminology is the old Rylov/Sobolin book.
There they only distinguish three grades -- good, fine and extremely
fine.

Does anyone have a list of the current coin grading terms in Russian,
BTW?

I find it extremely difficult to grade these, and also the 1 rouble
pieces, solely by the obverse. The hair is often flat and weakly
struck, the design itself tends to reinforce this impression, and even
uncirculated specimens are usually heavily bag-marked (probably from
the long, bumpy train/coach rides from the St. Petersburg mint to the
banks in Moscow, etc.??). The reverse, however, is fantastically rich
in detail. I find that looking at the uppermost crown and the eagle's
scepter tells me all I need to know about wear, whereas the hair can
be very misleading. But that is just my personal grading experience,
and I am certainly no expert (although I think I am getting better at
it).

The price for the above coin is listed at 3,480 roubles. There is a
currency converter at http://www.oanda.com which converts this amount
to $122.76). Krause lists them (1914 poltiny) even in BU at a mere
$45, so there seems to be some discrepancy in Krause's prices.

Thanks for looking!

--
Bob Hairgrove


If you are looking for `world' prices for UK coins, the last place you
want to look for them is in the UK. There may be exceptions, but i find
that the `home market' is always the hottest. Russia appears to be no
different in that respect.

As to grading. We grade according to the obverse. That's just the `is
-ness' of it. The reverse devices are usually \but not always) far
beetter protected design wise so that the obverse usually shows more
wear than the reverse. One stellar exception to this is the `Britannia
standing' florins of Edward VII. The dates on the reverse were high
points on the coin, and very susceptible to wear. You can sometimes find
VF obverses while the coin is nearly dateless. So indeed there are
occasions when we need to look more to the reverse for grading purposes.
However wear is wear, whether it is on the obverse or the reverse, and
it's wear that defines the grade in relation to world coins.

The two 50 k's in the original link show signs of wear. The first had
definite signs of wear on the cheek as well as the hair. It couldn't
(honestly that is) be termed `uncirculated' in a month of sundays. It
was most definitely not `Fleur de Coin'. The second evidenced less wear,
and came pretty close to what I believe could be termed AUnc, but as a
proof?....well neat coin indeed but as a proof it's goosed. What we
Brits would call an impaired proof as in A(lmost) FDC. Seems like our
Russian droogy's believe in hyping their wares as much as anyone. ;-)

The two `circulation strike' ones in your link I would rate in Brit
terms as being : 1895 aEF, 1914 VF. As already mentioned, Russia would
be the last place i'd be looking for `realistic pricing' or pricing
standards right now. You have to bear in mind that when the wall came
down, coins came flooding out. It now seems that these items might well
be relatively scarce in Russia right now but the demand hasn't yet seen
these `home market' prices reaching our shores quite yet.

Maybe they will, and if so I'd be more than happy to see the ones I
bought in the heady days of the end of communism being repatriated.
Especially at these prices or higher. ;-)

Ian

Ian

On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 12:01:51 GMT, Ian
wrote:

As to grading. We grade according to the obverse. That's just the `is
-ness' of it. The reverse devices are usually \but not always) far
beetter protected design wise so that the obverse usually shows more
wear than the reverse. One stellar exception to this is the `Britannia
standing' florins of Edward VII. The dates on the reverse were high
points on the coin, and very susceptible to wear. You can sometimes find
VF obverses while the coin is nearly dateless. So indeed there are
occasions when we need to look more to the reverse for grading purposes.
However wear is wear, whether it is on the obverse or the reverse, and
it's wear that defines the grade in relation to world coins.

Seems to be the same with U.S. Morgan dollars. Those big, beautiful
faces just beg to get marked up and worn down, I guess. But in
reality, there is no reason why the reverse of a coin should wear down
differently than the obverse. To believe anything else is ... well, a
bit one-sided, if you ask me... And there aren't many coin collectors,
I think, having their goodies stored in Whitman albums, who lustfully
rub their fingers all over the exposed obverse devices every night
before going to bed, leaving the reverses in a more or less virginal
state...(ahem...) But maybe this is what happens, because I can't
explain it any other way.

There is an interesting thread going on about ANACS and the end of
their so-called "net grading". I wonder how they will proceed in cases
such as you have described?

The two 50 k's in the original link show signs of wear. The first had
definite signs of wear on the cheek as well as the hair. It couldn't
(honestly that is) be termed `uncirculated' in a month of sundays. It
was most definitely not `Fleur de Coin'. The second evidenced less wear,
and came pretty close to what I believe could be termed AUnc, but as a
proof?....well neat coin indeed but as a proof it's goosed. What we
Brits would call an impaired proof as in A(lmost) FDC. Seems like our
Russian droogy's believe in hyping their wares as much as anyone. ;-)

Droogies? Do you mean "drooz'ya", as in the plural of "droog" (i.e.
friend)?

The two `circulation strike' ones in your link I would rate in Brit
terms as being : 1895 aEF, 1914 VF. As already mentioned, Russia would
be the last place i'd be looking for `realistic pricing' or pricing
standards right now. You have to bear in mind that when the wall came
down, coins came flooding out. It now seems that these items might well
be relatively scarce in Russia right now but the demand hasn't yet seen
these `home market' prices reaching our shores quite yet.

Maybe they will, and if so I'd be more than happy to see the ones I
bought in the heady days of the end of communism being repatriated.
Especially at these prices or higher. ;-)

You never know ... any chance on getting a glimpse of these coins?

Cheers!
--
Bob Hairgrove