Sick of Dealers and Coins

In article ,
says...
(Frank Provasek) wrote in message ...

Compare the true wholesale cost of most consumer goods,
particularly jewelry and clothes, with retail. and you will see that coins
have a lower spread than almost anything else you buy.

But if you go to Walmart or Sears to buy clothes, the salespeople
won't try to tell you that they are selling you "investments" that
will increase in value.

Neither can you ask them "how much will you come down in price?", nor can
you expect a reply when you say, "I'll give you "x" for that sweatshirt."
(x being a fraction of the sticker price of said sweatshirt)
--
Copper is as copper does.

Gotta love another apologist for the coin dealers. LOL

"DONDI3" wrote in message
...
In article , "Robert"
writes:

Ira Stein is making me laugh now....what a scumbag. All he wants to do
is
point out that there are thieves in other walks of life as well. Of
course
there are. This , however, doesn't change the fact that there are a lot
of
thieves in the coin business.

Glad you're getting a chuckle out of it. That was my reaction to the
original
post, but apparently there are those who are more than willing to believe
that
40 out of 40 dealers tried to rip off a couple of dudes with $5K worth of
coins...even though had they made "reasonable" offers, they stood to make
between $500 and $1000...

If this were remotely possible, I'd be ashamed to be a coin dealer, too,
primarily because it makes those 40 people among the dumbest people in the
room. If you read this thread at all, there is no one here denying there
are
theives in the coin business. Ira's point was pretty obvious to those of
who
have been following the thread. Other businesses have their scumbags,
too...and therefore a few bad apples can be expected to be found plying
the
coin business, just like all other businesses.

The issue is not that there are crooks in the coins business...there
are...or
that there are crooks in all businesses...there are. The issue is, that
even
crooks are unlikely to ignore the oportunity to earn a day's wages by
doing a
legitmate deal...and the ridiculousness of 40 out of 40 guys allowing a
$500+
profit walk away after a lowball offer is obvious to any thinking person.
The
flaw in the poster's story was exposed when he failed to follow thru by
providing reasonable proof, which he said he had but, for some reason,
won't
divulge it here. If logic wasn't enough to demonstrate the foolishness of
this
liar, the failure to provide the names of the dealers and/or the people
who
would corroborate his story has pretty much shown him to be another in the
long
line of trolls who visit here regularly. He simply dug himself in deeper
when
he claimed to have admissions from the offenders and STILL he can't give
us
their names.

My, my, either you're terminally naive, or a follow-up troll for the
original
guy.

Which is it?

dondi3
DONDI enterprises. BUY, SELL, TRADE. RARE COINS & PRECIOUS METALS
Member COINNET, CSNS, ANA, INA, MOON, ILNA.

In , on 08/30/2003
at 02:49 AM, "Robert" said:

Gotta love another apologist for the coin dealers. LOL

Yes, he's very dependable that way. So pro-dealer, anyone who isn't is
somehow radically anti-dealer. Right. Radical only points in one direction
in this case. In fact, I'll pre-twit him, 'cause I'm already tired of his
poppycock.

I've read the thread with interest. I have my own battle scars with coin
dealers, but fortunately only a couple dealings out of many. Always when
buying, and my scars are mostly from dabbling in areas before "buying the
book". One from a local (read: neighborhood) dealer who sold me some
"investment grade" Morgans when I first re-started up. Two of them. Fairly
worthless now, and not worth the money at the time, either. Detailed here
long ago, I think. He's still in business today, too. But he hasn't seen
any more of my money since, and a fair first deal would have paid off well
for him over the years!

Anyway. I do believe the original story was a little too, er, dark-sided?
I don't buy the "dealers knew it was a game" suggestion, but I also am not
so sure about the 40/40 lowballs. I've seen lowballs before ... in fact,
lowballs are a good starting point in any negotiating. I'm wondering if a
serious desire to sell might have resulted in some dickering that would have
netted better final offers.

It seems it's the way of business to buy low and sell high. In simple
terms, it seems logical to strive to buy as low as possible, and sell as
high as possible. Who wouldn't snatch a $5 item at a garage sale, even if
(especially if?) they knew it was worth $50? $100? $500? At what point
does it become unethical to purchase it for $5? OTOH, an elderly person
walks into a store and wants to sell that item for $5. Hmmmm. The
difference is there, I think. Yes? So, what if it's a gentlemen in his
30's and in a suit? He's ready to accept $5; maybe he even suggests this as
a good price.

What if a coin dealer ends up buying a $5 coin, thinking he could turn it
around for $10, and later find out he missed something and it was worth much
more? Does he feel guilty? Should he? If I discovered one of my purchases
was worth much more than I paid, I'd be ecstatic!

I guess I see the line as being blurry; not very well defined at all.
Playing games with margins is part of the business. Knowing your stuff is a
good idea. Knowing how to dicker is a good idea. Knowing nothing about
either and still playing the game is bad. Still, I do not agree with the
one fellow who felt that this made you "fair game".

No answers, just thinking out-loud. I have yet-another temporary twit to
add now. No sense wasting time this weekend arguing the same-old, same-old,
with the same.

Nick

Ira Stein wrote:
Tom writes:


It's unfortunate, but stories about the unscrupulous behavior of coin
dealers
are far too common and not all anecdotal.

A prominent member of the PNG (since resigned), Ronald J. Gillio, was indicted
last year on felony charges of trying to swindle an old man out of his
valuables.

snip


It would be nice if all the horror stories were just that, stories, but the
unpleasant reality is that there are crooks among us.

Ron Gillio has been indicted, NOT convicted. When & IF he's been convicted,
THEN you may call him a crook.

I will agree there are crooks among is, as that's certainly true.

Too bad the coin dealers can't be honest and trustworthy like corporate
executives raiding employee pension funds, like folks collecting unemployment
insurance and/or disability benefits and yet are working "under the table,"
like the doctors and hospitals that phony up non-existent tests and other
illusory medical procedures, like the dentists who collect Medicaid benefits
from patients who haven't shown up for years yet are still in the records, like
our wonderful politicians who always tell us the truth yet feather their own
nests by collecting $140,000/yr for like after merely serving one terms, like
stock brokers who churn the acc'ts of widows and the elderly putting them into
high risk investments in which the brokerage house has a position, and so on.

Regards,



Ira Stein

And don't forget the gas station in Kingman Arizona who after replacing a bad radiator hose found a warn belt and assured me
that it needed immediate replacement or I would breakdown between there and Las Vegas. The distance 100 miles the month was
November temperatures in the 40s. I just borrowed a pare of cutters and removed the Air Conditioning Belt and assured him
that I would not suffer from not having air-conditioning.

I also never went back to that station again. I believe this is called "Highway 66ing someone.
--
George D
Phoenix, AZ

AAA, AARP, ANA, NRA, RCC ?+1, PIA, PIAAZ, GATF 85006-3032-18-4

The reward for a good deed is to have done it.

Please use this address to mail me. Or remove the arizona in the link.
Remember there is no Arizona.


ALL emails incoming and outgoing are run thru Norton and AVG anti virus.

In article , Joe Schell
writes:

Alan
'part of a larger secret with ritual greetings'

BFD

Another bit of humor goes whizzing by...

dondi3
(whassat?)
DONDI enterprises. BUY, SELL, TRADE. RARE COINS & PRECIOUS METALS
Member COINNET, CSNS, ANA, INA, MOON, ILNA.

In article , "Nick Knight"
writes:


Gotta love another apologist for the coin dealers. LOL

Yes, he's very dependable that way.

I'm shocked that Nick's limited comprehension skills didn't lead him to believe
I was apologizing for being a coin dealer...heh.

So pro-dealer, anyone who isn't is somehow radically anti-dealer.

I suppose in Nick's mind this thought made sense when he wrote it. Too bad he
didn't check the thing before he hit "send" to avoid yet another silly nonsense
fractured statement

Right. Radical only points in one direction
in this case. In fact, I'll pre-twit him, 'cause I'm already tired of his
poppycock.

(Sigh) Twitted (again) by the world's most prolific twitter. I'm devastated.
I'd be more devastated if I didn't already think I was permanently twitted by
him several times already.


I've read the thread with interest. I have my own battle scars with coin
dealers, but fortunately only a couple dealings out of many. Always when
buying, and my scars are mostly from dabbling in areas before "buying the
book". One from a local (read: neighborhood) dealer who sold me some
"investment grade" Morgans when I first re-started up. Two of them. Fairly
worthless now, and not worth the money at the time, either. Detailed here
long ago, I think. He's still in business today, too. But he hasn't seen
any more of my money since, and a fair first deal would have paid off well
for him over the years!

I'd guess he was probably bored with Nick's pontificating and just probably
doesn't miss the few $$ it cost him to get out of dealing with him lo! these
many years. I'm thinking he's a very asute individual and realized what
benefits a loball offer would return him over time. A very wise man, indeed.
Proud to have him in the fraternity!

Anyway. I do believe the original story was a little too, er, dark-sided?

Wow! What discernment! I'm impressed. Ya jus' never know when reason burrows
it's way into the monkey's head.

(Blithering, blather deleted)

No answers, just thinking out-loud. I have yet-another temporary twit to
add now. No sense wasting time this weekend arguing the same-old, same-old,
with the same.

Nick

Damn! Just a "temporary" again. I was so hoping...well, maybe next time...
I'll admit tho'...the guy looks cute with his head in the sand and his brain in
the air...;-)

dondi3
(Once a Knight's enuf)


DONDI enterprises. BUY, SELL, TRADE. RARE COINS & PRECIOUS METALS
Member COINNET, CSNS, ANA, INA, MOON, ILNA.

Ed Rochette of the ANA once told me a story about how when, just before he left
Iola to move to Colorado Springs, he took his car to a nationally-known chain
of tire stores to get his car ready for the trip. Among other things, he had
new shock absorbers installed, as he was hauling a trailer.
..
After arriving in C-Springs, he took his car to a local branch of the same
chain to have his carburetor adjusted for the altitude (yes, you used to have
to do that). When the car was up on the rack, the mechanic came and got him
from the waiting area, showed him the car, and said you need new shock
absorbers. Ed told him to go ahead and put them on.
..
When the car was done and they handed him the bill, he said wait a minute,
opened up the glove compartment and handed the mechanic the two-week-old
receipt and said "They're still under warranty." The mechanic got mad and said
"Why didn't you tell me they were brand new???" and Ed said "You told me they
needed to be replaced. Were you lying?"
..
By the way, he never stepped foot in there again.
..
Tom DeLorey
..
Subject: Sick of Dealers and Coins
From: George D

snip

And don't forget the gas station in Kingman Arizona who after replacing a bad
radiator hose found a warn belt and assured me
that it needed immediate replacement or I would breakdown between there and
Las Vegas. The distance 100 miles the month was
November temperatures in the 40s. I just borrowed a pare of cutters and
removed the Air Conditioning Belt and assured him
that I would not suffer from not having air-conditioning.

I also never went back to that station again. I believe this is called
"Highway 66ing someone.
--
George D
Phoenix, AZ


TomDeLorey
..
"Standard Oil" What they use to keep the grading standards slippery!

Neither can you ask them "how much will you come down in price?", nor can
you expect a reply when you say, "I'll give you "x" for that sweatshirt."
(x being a fraction of the sticker price of said sweatshirt)


Unrelated to retail stores but I heard that some smaller hotels that can't get
on
the internet discount listings are putting
up signs "make an offer on a room" in
order to stay in business. So far the
results have been mixed as many people aren't used to getting a hotel
room that way.

I guess all this proves that all garages and their employees are crooks.

TomDeLorey wrote:
Ed Rochette of the ANA once told me a story about how when, just before he left
Iola to move to Colorado Springs, he took his car to a nationally-known chain
of tire stores to get his car ready for the trip. Among other things, he had
new shock absorbers installed, as he was hauling a trailer.
.
After arriving in C-Springs, he took his car to a local branch of the same
chain to have his carburetor adjusted for the altitude (yes, you used to have
to do that). When the car was up on the rack, the mechanic came and got him
from the waiting area, showed him the car, and said you need new shock
absorbers. Ed told him to go ahead and put them on.
.
When the car was done and they handed him the bill, he said wait a minute,
opened up the glove compartment and handed the mechanic the two-week-old
receipt and said "They're still under warranty." The mechanic got mad and said
"Why didn't you tell me they were brand new???" and Ed said "You told me they
needed to be replaced. Were you lying?"
.
By the way, he never stepped foot in there again.
.
Tom DeLorey
.

Subject: Sick of Dealers and Coins
From: George D


snip

And don't forget the gas station in Kingman Arizona who after replacing a bad
radiator hose found a warn belt and assured me
that it needed immediate replacement or I would breakdown between there and
Las Vegas. The distance 100 miles the month was
November temperatures in the 40s. I just borrowed a pare of cutters and
removed the Air Conditioning Belt and assured him
that I would not suffer from not having air-conditioning.

I also never went back to that station again. I believe this is called
"Highway 66ing someone.
--
George D
Phoenix, AZ



TomDeLorey
.
"Standard Oil" What they use to keep the grading standards slippery!


--
George D
Phoenix, AZ

AAA, AARP, ANA, NRA, RCC ?+1, PIA, PIAAZ, GATF 85006-3032-18-4

The reward for a good deed is to have done it.

Please use this address to mail me. Or remove the arizona in the link.
Remember there is no Arizona.


ALL emails incoming and outgoing are run thru Norton and AVG anti virus.

In article ,
(WinWinscenario) writes:

It's unfortunate, but stories about the unscrupulous behavior of coin
dealers
are far too common and not all anecdotal.

A prominent member of the PNG (since resigned), Ronald J. Gillio, was
indicted
last year on felony charges of trying to swindle an old man out of his
valuables.

Littleton runs an ad all the time about an old woman who wanted to sell a $5
note, and who took it to a series of dealers who offered her a tiny fraction
of
its true value (see, for example, Coinworld, 10/03, p.102, where an edited
version of the story appears in their latest ad).

It would be nice if all the horror stories were just that, stories, but the
unpleasant reality is that there are crooks among us.

Regards,
Tom


Tom, no one's saying that ALL dealers are honest. ...but 40 of 40 is
preposterous.
I'd guess out of 40 "man on the street" interviews, one is likely to find
quite
a few law breakers and a couple of felons in the group...but because
Littleton
documents a crook or anyone else finds a couple of people among the group
sometimes loosely described as "coin dealers" who are not honest, please do
not
indict the whole group. The situation described in the original post was
blatantly phony and transparently created by someone with nothing better to
do,
who has chosen not to offer any reasonable proof of facts he presented.

We're not perfect, but we're no worse than you'd find in any profession. As
I
said, no profession from presidents to priests is without its shysters ...but
those who attempt to embellish or totally fabricate the truth do more damage
to
the cases of real problem individuals when they do arise. These rabble
rousers
toss accusations and then run & hide when asked for some simple, verifiable
facts to document their stories. What purpose they serve or satisfaction
they
gain, I can't imagine. The fortunate thing is that most of them are not
smart
enough to write a believable scenario and like our original poster, are so
transparently lying, that it makes it quite a simple matter to shoot holes in
their stories.

dondi3

Dondi-

I agree with you.

Besides the issue of outright fraud--and I hope coin dealers are higher in
integrity than car repair shops in that regard--there is also the fact that
sometimes coin dealers just make egregious mistakes. The inability to properly
evaluate coins may explain some of the lowball offers. The latest glaring
example is Stacks telling the Walton family that their 1913 Lib 5c was a fake
(in 1963).

This story had a happy ending. Stacks didn't try to buy the thing "on the
cheap" (as far as we know); the Walton family kept it (threw it in a closet
somewhere), and, forty years later, it probably turned out to be a far better
investment than stocks or CDs.

Regards,
Tom