Sick of Dealers and Coins

ojunk (Coin Saver) wrote in
:

From: DFloyd

All generalizations are always untrue. ;o)

Does this mean the conspiracy has been called off? Why wasn't I
informed?

8-)
Coin Saver

Didn't you get the memo, the vote to replace conspiracy with paranoia
passed.

Alan & Erin Williams wrote in
:


I just added my newsreader to the National "Do Not Prevaricate" list.


So you won't be reading any more posts?? ;o)
Well, I hope you'll continue to post!

Where were you, I got the memo last week. LOL :-)

--
Yousri
ANA R-210745
World Mints: http://yousri.home.comcast.net


"Alan & Erin Williams" wrote in message
...
DFloyd wrote:

ojunk (Coin Saver) wrote in
:

From: DFloyd

All generalizations are always untrue. ;o)

Does this mean the conspiracy has been called off? Why wasn't I
informed?

8-)
Coin Saver

Didn't you get the memo, the vote to replace conspiracy with paranoia
passed.

When?? Who Voted For That??? Why won;t they SAY SO PUBLICALLY????

Alan
'what?'

(so ne) wrote in news:4326-3F4F30E5-2@storefull-
2114.public.lawson.webtv.net:

Treat people the way you want
to be treated. Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me!!
Doris


I couldn't agree more.

I was in a shop no too long ago and a grandfather came in with his 2
young grandsons. The dealer gave them each a bag of cents to search and
fill their albums. The deal was that if they find anything valuable they
split the sale price 50/50 with him. He tossed in a couple of IHC for
them to find.

Now there's a guy who hides being a puke really well.
I'm sure he's just setting those kids up so he can rip them off whem they
get older.;o)

Alan & Erin Williams wrote in
:


When?? Who Voted For That??? Why won;t they SAY SO PUBLICALLY????

Alan
'what?'


Tweak, increase your caffine intake. ;o)

Ira Stein is making me laugh now....what a scumbag. All he wants to do is
point out that there are thieves in other walks of life as well. Of course
there are. This , however, doesn't change the fact that there are a lot of
thieves in the coin business.


"Ira Stein" wrote in message
...
Tom writes:


It's unfortunate, but stories about the unscrupulous behavior of coin
dealers
are far too common and not all anecdotal.

A prominent member of the PNG (since resigned), Ronald J. Gillio, was
indicted
last year on felony charges of trying to swindle an old man out of his
valuables.

snip


It would be nice if all the horror stories were just that, stories, but
the
unpleasant reality is that there are crooks among us.

Ron Gillio has been indicted, NOT convicted. When & IF he's been
convicted,
THEN you may call him a crook.

I will agree there are crooks among is, as that's certainly true.

Too bad the coin dealers can't be honest and trustworthy like corporate
executives raiding employee pension funds, like folks collecting
unemployment
insurance and/or disability benefits and yet are working "under the
table,"
like the doctors and hospitals that phony up non-existent tests and other
illusory medical procedures, like the dentists who collect Medicaid
benefits
from patients who haven't shown up for years yet are still in the records,
like
our wonderful politicians who always tell us the truth yet feather their
own
nests by collecting $140,000/yr for like after merely serving one terms,
like
stock brokers who churn the acc'ts of widows and the elderly putting them
into
high risk investments in which the brokerage house has a position, and so
on.

Regards,



Ira Stein

Phil Barnhart wrote:

This summer, a good friend and ethics professor at a prominent law
school invited me up for a weekend. During this visit he commented
that it had been quite awhile since I had mentioned coins to him. I
had been an avid collector. I told him the truth.

"I am sick of dishonest, unethical and greedy people. So I have sold
almost all my coins and am leaving the hobby. It is just too hard on
the psyche"

Where did you sell your coins? Did you get your price for them? What
was so hard on your psyche? Collecting? Constant selling? Constant
buying? If coin collecting was stressful for you, wait until you get a
little deeper into your life.


After a great deal of debate, I made an offer to him. The ANA
convention would be in Baltimore in a few weeks and I offered to prove
to him that finding an honest dealer was harder in the convention
floor than in any court. The bet was on.

This is sounding more and more like a high school homework paper.


We met up at the convention, and I explained what we had to do. I had
two coins, slabbed by well-known services, that we would remove from
the slabs and try to sell. Each would be in an Eagle holder. Our
story was that these were my father's coins, and he was now in a home
and needed some money. One would be an 1892-O Half Eagle graded AU-55
(value between $1500-$2000). The second would be an 1916 Standing Lib
graded AU-58 (value between $4500-$5100).

Smart move. Throw away re-slabbing costs for $6-7,000 worth of coins to
play your little game. Nice to be wealthy, I guess.


Over six hours we approached 40 dealers (one of which posts here on
occasion - do you remember us?). We were lied to (10 dealers pointed
to the price of an 1892 Half Eagle on their grey sheet instead of the
New Orleans coin). 6 dealers gave us prices for the 1917 Standing
lib. What did the others do?

Almost every one asked us how much we wanted. One dealer even had
similarly grade 1916 in his case - he purposely laid several papers
over that area of the case while we chatted.

Did you ever tell any dealer what price YOU wanted? With that BS story
you were handing out, I would guess most dealers you approached
suspected your two "raw" coins were stolen and they would lose their
money if the police came to claim them. Did you have your baseball cap
on backwards?


Almost every dealer undergraded these coins considerably. They used
the terms "very good" and "fine." At least 8 dealers said that they
had been cleaned. Here are the lowest and highest offers:

1892-O Half Eagle
Low offer: $250
Median offer: $650
High offer: $875

1916 Standing Lib
Low offer: $50 (offered 3 times)
Median offer: $550
High offer: $1300

Many of these dealers were good ANA members, respected, and heavy Coin
World advertisers. Not a single one of them were ethical. One
well-known dealer eyed the Standing lib for several minutes, declared
it an "extra-fine" and offered me $900.

"Are you positive about the grade?"

"Oh, yes. I've dealt with thousands of coins over the years. My
standards are very strict."

"What about grading companies?" Many of his coins were slabbed.

"They can be all over the map, but usually my grade matches theirs.
Slabbing a coin is expensive, though."

"So this coin is extra-fine, and you can give me $900 right now? How
about $1100?"

He pretends to think about it a bit. "I think I know someone who
might take this. MMmmmmmmmmmm. Okay."

"What if I told you I know this coin is actually AU, was purchased
from B&M five years ago, and is worth over 4 grand?"

If looks would kill, I'd be dead. "Everyone is entitled to their
opinion. A coin is only worth what someone else is willing to pay for
it." He had a few other choice words then had to call someone on his
cell. This dealer was the only one we confronted.

One story out of 40?


My good friend, the law profession, paid for drinks that night - and
looked ill about our day. He agreed with me - in ANY other field what
these dealers attempted would be unethical; in many cases even
criminal fraud. One man's "caveat emptor" is another man's thievery.
And I am sick of the lot of them. I just can't stand being around an
entire crowd of people all trying to rip each other off. And
certainly not any "fun." I've switched to wine tasting.

Stop! You're making us cry. What do you think those dealers thought
about YOU? Anyway, now you can relax tasting wines with the little
finger crowd and sharing BS stories about a provocative vintage or that
sassy little chardonet. Perhaps you'll fit in better with that crowd.


For the record, I sent the coins back through the slabbing process -
the standing lib came even back MS-63. Lol! I sold both of them -
this time letting the dealer in LA know I knew what the coins were
actually worth. The final price:

1916 Standing Lib: $5300
1892-O Half Eagle: $1600


From AU to MS-63? I'm surprised you didn't claim the slabbing companies
are unethical. too. Be honest now. Didn't you get the feeling you
ripped someone off when you saw that MS63? You said you were LOL.


Bruce

In article , "Robert"
writes:

Ira Stein is making me laugh now....what a scumbag. All he wants to do is
point out that there are thieves in other walks of life as well. Of course
there are. This , however, doesn't change the fact that there are a lot of
thieves in the coin business.

Glad you're getting a chuckle out of it. That was my reaction to the original
post, but apparently there are those who are more than willing to believe that
40 out of 40 dealers tried to rip off a couple of dudes with $5K worth of
coins...even though had they made "reasonable" offers, they stood to make
between $500 and $1000...

If this were remotely possible, I'd be ashamed to be a coin dealer, too,
primarily because it makes those 40 people among the dumbest people in the
room. If you read this thread at all, there is no one here denying there are
theives in the coin business. Ira's point was pretty obvious to those of who
have been following the thread. Other businesses have their scumbags,
too...and therefore a few bad apples can be expected to be found plying the
coin business, just like all other businesses.

The issue is not that there are crooks in the coins business...there are...or
that there are crooks in all businesses...there are. The issue is, that even
crooks are unlikely to ignore the oportunity to earn a day's wages by doing a
legitmate deal...and the ridiculousness of 40 out of 40 guys allowing a $500+
profit walk away after a lowball offer is obvious to any thinking person. The
flaw in the poster's story was exposed when he failed to follow thru by
providing reasonable proof, which he said he had but, for some reason, won't
divulge it here. If logic wasn't enough to demonstrate the foolishness of this
liar, the failure to provide the names of the dealers and/or the people who
would corroborate his story has pretty much shown him to be another in the long
line of trolls who visit here regularly. He simply dug himself in deeper when
he claimed to have admissions from the offenders and STILL he can't give us
their names.

My, my, either you're terminally naive, or a follow-up troll for the original
guy.

Which is it?

dondi3
DONDI enterprises. BUY, SELL, TRADE. RARE COINS & PRECIOUS METALS
Member COINNET, CSNS, ANA, INA, MOON, ILNA.

In article 03,
says...
(so ne) wrote in news:4326-3F4F30E5-2@storefull-
2114.public.lawson.webtv.net:

Treat people the way you want
to be treated. Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me!!
Doris


I couldn't agree more.

I was in a shop no too long ago and a grandfather came in with his 2
young grandsons. The dealer gave them each a bag of cents to search and
fill their albums. The deal was that if they find anything valuable they
split the sale price 50/50 with him. He tossed in a couple of IHC for
them to find.

Now there's a guy who hides being a puke really well.
I'm sure he's just setting those kids up so he can rip them off whem they
get older.;o)



I'm sure he couldn't afford a table at an ANA show,either.
--
Copper is as copper does.

In article ,
says...
Coin Saver wrote:

From: DFloyd

All generalizations are always untrue. ;o)

Does this mean the conspiracy has been called off? Why wasn't I informed?

8-)
Coin Saver

I just added my newsreader to the National "Do Not Prevaricate" list.

Any posters violating this list after October 1, 2003 will be reported
to the FTC, SEC, FBI, CIA, OSS, SSA, IRS, DoD, OPM, PTA, NSA, CBS, DJI
and any other three letter acronyms that are handy.

Thank You.

Alan
'part of a larger secret with ritual greetings'

BFD
--
Copper is as copper does.