FA: 1909-S VDB Lincoln Cent $1795 with no reserve

On Mon, 28 Mar 2005 18:32:50 -0700, "RF"
wrote:
Tell you what... you ask Bowers, Stack, Kagin, and any others next time your
at a big show, and I bet they know him by name, and by the quality of the
items he handles.
The only time he handles average items, is when someone has traded him for a
nicer item.

Ira IS that big.. not just on RCC..

FWIW, whether Bowers or whoever knows of him means nothing as to his
reputation in the hobby being "second to none". That was the point, no
more, no less. As I've said, I'd buy the coin from him myself if it
was something I was interested in. You're awfully defensive.

Whether someone handles "average" items or "quality" items really
matters not as to how they treat their customers, though, IMHO. There
are questionable dealers who trade expensive coins only (as with any
relative commodity), and dealers of the highest integrity and
knowledge who handle typical collector coins with class and superb
service. I'd much rather deal with the latter.

As for the whole "Ira coin" thing, it ocurred to me that I have a
Lincoln I bought from Bowers in the 70's... to me, it's still just a
Lincoln... it's not a "Dave coin" that I'm honored to own because it
once passed through his inventory. I just can't relate to what seems
to me to be borderline idol-worship. And if someone decides to deal in
'high-end' coins only, that doesn't make them a better person, or
immune from criticism: it's just a business decision.

The original questions still stand. For example, why is it that lately
everyone has been chiming in that it doesn't matter where a coin has
been, estate or otherwise, and that they don't like seeing mention of
it in an auction. Yet Ira made a point of telling us about the "older
gentleman that had it slabbed about 14 years ago and he's owned it
before then in pre-slabbing days", and it's conveniently ignored. Just
for one example. Just asking. If it's too uncomfortable to even
contemplate, feel free to continue to ignore, or raise another red
herring.

Chuck

On Mon, 28 Mar 2005 22:52:30 -0800, wrote:

The original questions still stand. For example, why is it that lately
everyone has been chiming in that it doesn't matter where a coin has
been, estate or otherwise, and that they don't like seeing mention of
it in an auction. Yet Ira made a point of telling us about the "older
gentleman that had it slabbed about 14 years ago and he's owned it
before then in pre-slabbing days", and it's conveniently ignored.

Ira "made a point" of speaking of the coin's history because after it
was explained to YOU that he probably meant that this particular coin
had never been auctioned on eBay, YOU responded "And how would he know
that for sure?"

Since this was a direct response to your question it was not viewed
(here) as hype....and ignored.

Chuck writes:


Whether someone handles "average" items or "quality" items really
matters not as to how they treat their customers, though, IMHO. There
are questionable dealers who trade expensive coins only (as with any
relative commodity), and dealers of the highest integrity and
knowledge who handle typical collector coins with class and superb
service. I'd much rather deal with the latter.

So then are you saying that there are basically two types of dealers?
Those of QUESTIONABLE character who trade expensive coins and those of
the HIGHEST INTEGRITY who handle only typical collector coins? You of
course would choose to deal with only the latter. Makes sense.


I didn't realize that the characterization of dealers was so
simplistic.

Hmmmn,,,sleazy but carries only expensive coins...OR,
those who are honest and give superb service but deal in typical
collector coins.
Who'da thought it could be so straightforward?

Phil's got it right...I explained that the coin was in an older
gntleman's collection here on RCC to repond to your charge that I was
guilty of yet more hype.

Ira,

I stopped posting to this guy yesterday because it is obvious he only
wants to make trouble. He just started posting to RCC in January and
already he is the resident expert on how auctions should be conducted
and the intergrity of dealers. As you told me long ago about another
troll, I do not think this guy is worth the time. Keep doing what you
are doing and lets ignore this guy and hopefully he will go away.

David

On 29 Mar 2005 11:58:37 -0800, "Ira Stein" wrote:

Chuck writes:


Whether someone handles "average" items or "quality" items really
matters not as to how they treat their customers, though, IMHO. There
are questionable dealers who trade expensive coins only (as with any
relative commodity), and dealers of the highest integrity and
knowledge who handle typical collector coins with class and superb
service. I'd much rather deal with the latter.

So then are you saying that there are basically two types of dealers?
Those of QUESTIONABLE character who trade expensive coins and those of
the HIGHEST INTEGRITY who handle only typical collector coins? You of
course would choose to deal with only the latter. Makes sense.


I didn't realize that the characterization of dealers was so
simplistic.

When I read this message this morning, I thought of several dealers
I've met along the way who sell more expensive coins, but do it in
(for lack of a better word) a charming way. These dealers have not
lost their excitement about coins or their interest in people who
collect them.

I personally do not believe that it is a red flag to show excitement
over a coin being offered. Many coins deserve the praise. The only
time I feel it is out of place is if the coin is built up to be a gem,
then the picture shows it looks more like a weathered piece of
concrete.

As long as auctioneers are truthful and don't say LQQK, I see no
problem with praise. I've been more troubled by sellers who have a MS
67+ coin who take bad pictures and don't even comment on the coin's
beauty. Imagine what it must be like to be a beautiful coin being
marketed as a common slug.

Anita

On 28 Mar 2005 14:55:51 -0800, "Ira Stein" wrote:

Gary, it was a last minute decision due to the scarcity of the material
I like to buy at the Baltimore show. As it turns out, there was little
for me to buy in West Palm and I had my wife along, so I rarely spent
more than 2 hrs per day at the show. Wouldn't have made any difference
anyway. At a smallish show like that, I could have seen all I needed to
see in 3 hrs. Next time in Florida for coins will be at FUN, but I will
be going to Central States.

Ira

SIGH...........oh well..........Hopefully I will see you at FUN next
year then.........

Regards,

Gary

On Tue, 29 Mar 2005 05:02:36 -0500, Phil DeMayo
wrote:
Ira "made a point" of speaking of the coin's history because after it
was explained to YOU that he probably meant that this particular coin
had never been auctioned on eBay, YOU responded "And how would he know
that for sure?"

Since this was a direct response to your question it was not viewed
(here) as hype....and ignored.

It's beating a dead horse now... obviously no one will dare reply
directly and openly... or maybe even consider that there are shades of
gray, and Ira's hype may be tolerable, but not pure as the driven
snow. I'm actually less interested in the particular hype etc.
involved than in the groupthink that selectively, seemingly
reflexively, attacks or ignores it in any given case, even when
brought to their attention.

Yes, Phil, the 'older gentleman' elaboration was apparently in
response to my post. But as he said himself, he made a point of
speaking of the history in the listing originally, before I'd said a
thing, but apparently typo'd "this date" rather than "this coin".

And the 'how would he know for sure' was never responded to directly
at all, actually (the 'older gentleman' elaboration doesn't, any more
than an 'estate' claim by some other seller would).

Nor why it would be useful to include "this coin has never been listed
on eBay before" in the eBay description in the first place, even if
verifiably true... before I'd said a thing.

Ira, even with the hype and exclamation points, is God; and eBay
sellers who mention the word 'estate' are evil incarnate.

At least we have it settled now. )

Chuck

On 29 Mar 2005 11:58:37 -0800, "Ira Stein" wrote:
Whether someone handles "average" items or "quality" items really
matters not as to how they treat their customers, though, IMHO. There
are questionable dealers who trade expensive coins only (as with any
relative commodity), and dealers of the highest integrity and
knowledge who handle typical collector coins with class and superb
service. I'd much rather deal with the latter.

So then are you saying that there are basically two types of dealers?
Those of QUESTIONABLE character who trade expensive coins and those of
the HIGHEST INTEGRITY who handle only typical collector coins? You of
course would choose to deal with only the latter. Makes sense.

I didn't realize that the characterization of dealers was so
simplistic.

It's not, of course, nor did I say it was. Merely that it seems
enough, for some reason, to simply point out that you handle high-end
coins, as if that should be a discussion-ender. It was obviously
rhetorical. Take it in context, look back at the post I replied to. I
was just contrasting for effect two hypothetical subgroups of dealers.
The quality of any given person's coins for sale says little if
anything about their reputation, by itself. Do I need to repeat also
that I would have no problem buying the S-VDB from you, at the right
price, were I in the market for one? Would that be consistent with
your twisted interpretation of my above paragraph?

Chuck

On Tue, 29 Mar 2005 20:36:56 GMT, Anita wrote:
When I read this message this morning, I thought of several dealers
I've met along the way who sell more expensive coins, but do it in
(for lack of a better word) a charming way. These dealers have not
lost their excitement about coins or their interest in people who
collect them.

Definitely... there aren't as many as there used to be, and IMHO much
of that has to do with commoditized slabs, but they're out there. I
don't consider hype charming, though.

I personally do not believe that it is a red flag to show excitement
over a coin being offered. Many coins deserve the praise. The only
time I feel it is out of place is if the coin is built up to be a gem,
then the picture shows it looks more like a weathered piece of
concrete.

People get legitimately excited over different things, and it's not
always grade. Ira's S-VDB is attractive, but does little for me. One
person's "Wow" is another's "so what?". As someone said here the other
day, the coin should speak for itself; and with a quality coin a
seller risks gilding the lily. There's a difference between objective
information and hype, regardless of the grade of the coin.

As long as auctioneers are truthful and don't say LQQK, I see no
problem with praise.

Yeah, LQQK is annoying. But where you and I apparently differ is that
I tend to think that "The Key!", "... Give yourself the present you've
always wanted!", "...well under my cost with no reserve!", and "this
is its first time on eBay" are, also. And I'm sure those would appear
(among other things) in one of those numbered lists of things wrong
with a listing that gets posted here, if the seller was anyone but
Ira.

Chuck

wrote:

On Tue, 29 Mar 2005 05:02:36 -0500, Phil DeMayo
wrote:
Ira "made a point" of speaking of the coin's history because after it
was explained to YOU that he probably meant that this particular coin
had never been auctioned on eBay, YOU responded "And how would he know
that for sure?"

Since this was a direct response to your question it was not viewed
(here) as hype....and ignored.

It's beating a dead horse now... obviously no one will dare reply
directly and openly...

You are one hungry troll. This is about the fifth time you've begged
others to dive in and give new targets for your game of semantics.

or maybe even consider that there are shades of
gray, and Ira's hype may be tolerable, but not pure as the driven
snow. I'm actually less interested in the particular hype etc.
involved than in the groupthink that selectively, seemingly
reflexively, attacks or ignores it in any given case, even when
brought to their attention.

Sir, a fly often draws attention, but is rarely worth a response. A
howling dog draws attention, but does not merit a discussion.


Yes, Phil, the 'older gentleman' elaboration was apparently in
response to my post. But as he said himself, he made a point of
speaking of the history in the listing originally, before I'd said a
thing, but apparently typo'd "this date" rather than "this coin".

And the 'how would he know for sure' was never responded to directly
at all, actually (the 'older gentleman' elaboration doesn't, any more
than an 'estate' claim by some other seller would).

The point would be, for those more dense than curious, that the slab is
an older generation PCGS. Whether it was owned by an elderly gentleman
or a young trollop is totally irrelevant, as you well know.


Nor why it would be useful to include "this coin has never been listed
on eBay before" in the eBay description in the first place, even if
verifiably true... before I'd said a thing.

There are people whose statements can be taken at face value. My
assessment of Mr. Stein is that if he says it's been off-market for
several years, he's telling the truth. Why you would cast doubt on his
statement or even find it deserving of scrutiny speaks more to your own
agenda than to the specific offer you are delighting in nitpicking.


Ira, even with the hype and exclamation points, is God; and eBay
sellers who mention the word 'estate' are evil incarnate.

At least we have it settled now. )

It's a free country, speak what you like. Bear in mind that it may
ultimately teach us more about you than about your chosen topic.

Alan
'its always been like that'