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Numismatist on PVC



 
 
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  #1  
Old December 2nd 09, 11:43 PM posted to rec.collecting.coins
Reid Goldsborough[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 357
Default Numismatist on PVC

There are three interesting columns in this month's Numismatist relating
to previous discussions here and touching upon the issue of truth and
misinformation in numismatics. With the first, the author of the
Collector's Edge column repeats the misinformation that soft flips cause
PVC damage because "the chemical PVC is added to make the flips more
pliable" and leaches out of the plastic onto the coins. In truth, soft
flips are made of PVC, with PVC just being another name for vinyl, which
is the plastic they're made of. PVC (polyvinyl chloride) on its own is
rigid and needs plasticizers (typically, phthalate esters) to make it
soft and pliable. It's the plasticizers that cause PVC damage. The
author also incorrectly states that hard flips don't contain PVC. Some
hard flips in fact are also made of PVC but have less plasticizer in
them and are marketed as "safety flips," safer for coins than soft
flips. Other hard flips are made of a different plastic, polyester,
frequently referred to by its brand name Mylar. All this has been
discussed here, on the Web, and in the Numismatist and other
publications many times, yet the misinformation continues, not only by
some numismatic writers but by some coin supply dealers.

--

Consumer: http://rg.ancients.info/guide
Connoisseur: http://rg.ancients.info/glom
Counterfeit: http://rg.ancients.info/bogos
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  #2  
Old December 3rd 09, 02:23 PM posted to rec.collecting.coins
mazorj
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Posts: 1,169
Default Numismatist on PVC


"Reid Goldsborough" wrote in message
...
There are three interesting columns in this month's Numismatist relating
to previous discussions here and touching upon the issue of truth and
misinformation in numismatics. With the first, the author of the
Collector's Edge column repeats the misinformation that soft flips cause
PVC damage because "the chemical PVC is added to make the flips more
pliable" and leaches out of the plastic onto the coins. In truth, soft
flips are made of PVC, with PVC just being another name for vinyl, which
is the plastic they're made of. PVC (polyvinyl chloride) on its own is
rigid and needs plasticizers (typically, phthalate esters) to make it soft
and pliable. It's the plasticizers that cause PVC damage. The author also
incorrectly states that hard flips don't contain PVC. Some hard flips in
fact are also made of PVC but have less plasticizer in them and are
marketed as "safety flips," safer for coins than soft flips. Other hard
flips are made of a different plastic, polyester, frequently referred to
by its brand name Mylar. All this has been discussed here, on the Web, and
in the Numismatist and other publications many times, yet the
misinformation continues, not only by some numismatic writers but by some
coin supply dealers.


So is any PVC-based flip really "safe" for long-term storage since they all
contain some amount of plasticizers? Or should we view all claims that
imply permanent safety as marketing puffery?

Is Mylar the gold standard? How safe are coins in Mylar? Which commercial
brand flips are made from Mylar?

-mazorj, now nervously eying his enflipped hoard

  #3  
Old December 3rd 09, 02:38 PM posted to rec.collecting.coins
Mr. Jaggers
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,523
Default Numismatist on PVC

mazorj wrote:
"Reid Goldsborough" wrote in message
...
There are three interesting columns in this month's Numismatist
relating to previous discussions here and touching upon the issue of
truth and misinformation in numismatics. With the first, the author
of the Collector's Edge column repeats the misinformation that soft
flips cause PVC damage because "the chemical PVC is added to make
the flips more pliable" and leaches out of the plastic onto the
coins. In truth, soft flips are made of PVC, with PVC just being
another name for vinyl, which is the plastic they're made of. PVC
(polyvinyl chloride) on its own is rigid and needs plasticizers
(typically, phthalate esters) to make it soft and pliable. It's the
plasticizers that cause PVC damage. The author also incorrectly
states that hard flips don't contain PVC. Some hard flips in fact
are also made of PVC but have less plasticizer in them and are
marketed as "safety flips," safer for coins than soft flips. Other
hard flips are made of a different plastic, polyester, frequently
referred to by its brand name Mylar. All this has been discussed
here, on the Web, and in the Numismatist and other publications many
times, yet the misinformation continues, not only by some numismatic
writers but by some coin supply dealers.


So is any PVC-based flip really "safe" for long-term storage since
they all contain some amount of plasticizers? Or should we view all
claims that imply permanent safety as marketing puffery?


I have uncirculated coins that have been in Kointainer Saflips for thirty
years without showing any signs of deterioration. But yes, all claims of
permanent safety are puffery. It's that pesky entropy thing that'll getcha
in the end.

James the Biologically Evolved


  #4  
Old December 3rd 09, 06:03 PM posted to rec.collecting.coins
mazorj
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,169
Default Numismatist on PVC


"Mr. Jaggers" lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com wrote in message
...
mazorj wrote:
"Reid Goldsborough" wrote in message
...
There are three interesting columns in this month's Numismatist
relating to previous discussions here and touching upon the issue of
truth and misinformation in numismatics. With the first, the author
of the Collector's Edge column repeats the misinformation that soft
flips cause PVC damage because "the chemical PVC is added to make
the flips more pliable" and leaches out of the plastic onto the
coins. In truth, soft flips are made of PVC, with PVC just being
another name for vinyl, which is the plastic they're made of. PVC
(polyvinyl chloride) on its own is rigid and needs plasticizers
(typically, phthalate esters) to make it soft and pliable. It's the
plasticizers that cause PVC damage. The author also incorrectly
states that hard flips don't contain PVC. Some hard flips in fact
are also made of PVC but have less plasticizer in them and are
marketed as "safety flips," safer for coins than soft flips. Other
hard flips are made of a different plastic, polyester, frequently
referred to by its brand name Mylar. All this has been discussed
here, on the Web, and in the Numismatist and other publications many
times, yet the misinformation continues, not only by some numismatic
writers but by some coin supply dealers.


So is any PVC-based flip really "safe" for long-term storage since
they all contain some amount of plasticizers? Or should we view all
claims that imply permanent safety as marketing puffery?


I have uncirculated coins that have been in Kointainer Saflips for thirty
years without showing any signs of deterioration. But yes, all claims of
permanent safety are puffery. It's that pesky entropy thing that'll
getcha in the end.

James the Biologically Evolved


Okay, that's a good testimony to the Kointainer ones.

Entropy will win in the end for all things, but before the universe settles
down to an amorphous mass, a few other things will happen, like all those
clear sheets of supercooled liquid (a.k.a. glass) puddling under my windows.
That's going to let in the elements, which can't be good for coin storage
regardless of which brand of flips you use.

I'll be happy if my specimens survive without visible damage long enough for
my children to appreciate what I've passed on to them. After that, it's
their problem!

- mazorj the Bequeather


  #5  
Old December 3rd 09, 06:11 PM posted to rec.collecting.coins
Mr. Jaggers
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,523
Default Numismatist on PVC

mazorj wrote:
"Mr. Jaggers" lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com wrote in message
...
mazorj wrote:
"Reid Goldsborough" wrote in message
...
There are three interesting columns in this month's Numismatist
relating to previous discussions here and touching upon the issue
of truth and misinformation in numismatics. With the first, the
author of the Collector's Edge column repeats the misinformation
that soft flips cause PVC damage because "the chemical PVC is
added to make the flips more pliable" and leaches out of the
plastic onto the coins. In truth, soft flips are made of PVC, with
PVC just being another name for vinyl, which is the plastic
they're made of. PVC (polyvinyl chloride) on its own is rigid and
needs plasticizers (typically, phthalate esters) to make it soft
and pliable. It's the plasticizers that cause PVC damage. The
author also incorrectly states that hard flips don't contain PVC.
Some hard flips in fact are also made of PVC but have less
plasticizer in them and are marketed as "safety flips," safer for
coins than soft flips. Other hard flips are made of a different
plastic, polyester, frequently referred to by its brand name
Mylar. All this has been discussed here, on the Web, and in the
Numismatist and other publications many times, yet the
misinformation continues, not only by some numismatic writers but
by some coin supply dealers.

So is any PVC-based flip really "safe" for long-term storage since
they all contain some amount of plasticizers? Or should we view all
claims that imply permanent safety as marketing puffery?


I have uncirculated coins that have been in Kointainer Saflips for
thirty years without showing any signs of deterioration. But yes,
all claims of permanent safety are puffery. It's that pesky entropy
thing that'll getcha in the end.

James the Biologically Evolved


Okay, that's a good testimony to the Kointainer ones.

Entropy will win in the end for all things, but before the universe
settles down to an amorphous mass, a few other things will happen,
like all those clear sheets of supercooled liquid (a.k.a. glass)
puddling under my windows. That's going to let in the elements, which
can't be good for coin storage regardless of which brand of flips you
use.
I'll be happy if my specimens survive without visible damage long
enough for my children to appreciate what I've passed on to them. After
that, it's their problem!


It's only a matter of time until some loudmouth swings through here and goes
ad hominem on you for claiming that glass is a supercooled liquid.

Meanwhile, here's a disquisition on the topic:

http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physic...ass/glass.html

James the Vitreous


  #6  
Old December 3rd 09, 06:44 PM posted to rec.collecting.coins
Reid Goldsborough[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 357
Default Numismatist on PVC


M.Meghrig & Sons in Los Angeles manufactures flips with reduced PVC.
They call it "Generic Archival" or as above author says "rigid
flips".
Without a minimum of PVC these holders would be unusable.


Again, these aren't reduced-PVC flips, they're reduced-plasticizer
flips. They're still made of PVC, which is another name for vinyl, which
is the type of plastic they're made of. What you meant is that without a
minimum of plasticizer the flips would be unusable.

--

Consumer: http://rg.ancients.info/guide
Connoisseur: http://rg.ancients.info/glom
Counterfeit: http://rg.ancients.info/bogos
  #7  
Old December 3rd 09, 06:51 PM posted to rec.collecting.coins
Reid Goldsborough[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 357
Default Numismatist on PVC


So is any PVC-based flip really "safe" for long-term storage since they
all contain some amount of plasticizers?


PVC safety flips are distinguished by the amount of plasticizers they
contain, which is much less than regular soft PVC flips.

Is Mylar the gold standard? How safe are coins in Mylar? Which
commercial brand flips are made from Mylar?


I don't think anybody has seriously studied this. I believe polyester
(Mylar) safety flips are safer than low-plasticizer PVC safety flips.
But I believe the difference is small, perhaps insignificant. Again, I
don't think there's any evidence to back this up, just anecdotal
stories. My own practice is to put the few proof coins I have in
polyester flips (Kointain Saflips) and most of the rest in International
Plastics' low-plasticizer safety flips, sold by among others Jake's
Marketplace and FORVM Ancient Coins. I believe the low-plasticizer
safety flips might be problematic in high-heat, high-humidity
environments, but otherwise they're fine. I've read or heard nothing,
anecdotally, to the contrary. Others like them, I know, but I personally
find the Kointain Saflips ugly, with their striations, sharp corners,
and flimsiness, making the coin/flip package less attractive to look at
than coins in the low-plasticizer safety flips. Again, just my view for
my coins.

--

Consumer: http://rg.ancients.info/guide
Connoisseur: http://rg.ancients.info/glom
Counterfeit: http://rg.ancients.info/bogos
  #8  
Old December 3rd 09, 08:04 PM posted to rec.collecting.coins
Mr. Jaggers
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,523
Default Numismatist on PVC

Reid Goldsborough wrote:
So is any PVC-based flip really "safe" for long-term storage since
they all contain some amount of plasticizers?


PVC safety flips are distinguished by the amount of plasticizers they
contain, which is much less than regular soft PVC flips.

Is Mylar the gold standard? How safe are coins in Mylar? Which
commercial brand flips are made from Mylar?


I don't think anybody has seriously studied this. I believe polyester
(Mylar) safety flips are safer than low-plasticizer PVC safety flips.
But I believe the difference is small, perhaps insignificant. Again, I
don't think there's any evidence to back this up, just anecdotal
stories. My own practice is to put the few proof coins I have in
polyester flips (Kointain Saflips) and most of the rest in
International Plastics' low-plasticizer safety flips, sold by among
others Jake's Marketplace and FORVM Ancient Coins. I believe the
low-plasticizer safety flips might be problematic in high-heat,
high-humidity environments, but otherwise they're fine. I've read or
heard nothing, anecdotally, to the contrary. Others like them, I
know, but I personally find the Kointain Saflips ugly, with their
striations, sharp corners, and flimsiness, making the coin/flip
package less attractive to look at than coins in the low-plasticizer
safety flips. Again, just my view for my coins.


I just checked an unopened pack of Saflips. It says they are made of
Polyethylene Terephthalate (a/k/a polyester) and that they are "inert and
flexible" and "Contain no PVC or Oil."

Yes, they do have the striations and sharp corners, and some of my older
ones crack if I open them far enough to take the coins out. I don't know if
the formula has changed or not in 30 years, but if not, I suppose they will
all crack one day. At something like 15c a throw retail, that can get
expensive.

James


  #9  
Old December 3rd 09, 08:48 PM posted to rec.collecting.coins
note.boy
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,418
Default Numismatist on PVC

I've had some coins in PVC holders for over 40 years without any sign of
damage, perhaps it depends up the exact chemical makeup of the PVC.

The PVC does appear to be of the "soft" variety but the coins are stored in
a cold place, perhaps high temperatures allow the PVC to do the damage, not
a problem in Scotland. Billy



"Reid Goldsborough" wrote in message
...
There are three interesting columns in this month's Numismatist relating
to previous discussions here and touching upon the issue of truth and
misinformation in numismatics. With the first, the author of the
Collector's Edge column repeats the misinformation that soft flips cause
PVC damage because "the chemical PVC is added to make the flips more
pliable" and leaches out of the plastic onto the coins. In truth, soft
flips are made of PVC, with PVC just being another name for vinyl, which
is the plastic they're made of. PVC (polyvinyl chloride) on its own is
rigid and needs plasticizers (typically, phthalate esters) to make it soft
and pliable. It's the plasticizers that cause PVC damage. The author also
incorrectly states that hard flips don't contain PVC. Some hard flips in
fact are also made of PVC but have less plasticizer in them and are
marketed as "safety flips," safer for coins than soft flips. Other hard
flips are made of a different plastic, polyester, frequently referred to
by its brand name Mylar. All this has been discussed here, on the Web, and
in the Numismatist and other publications many times, yet the
misinformation continues, not only by some numismatic writers but by some
coin supply dealers.

--

Consumer: http://rg.ancients.info/guide
Connoisseur: http://rg.ancients.info/glom
Counterfeit: http://rg.ancients.info/bogos



  #10  
Old December 3rd 09, 09:55 PM posted to rec.collecting.coins
mazorj
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,169
Default Numismatist on PVC


"Mr. Jaggers" lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com wrote in message
...
mazorj wrote:


....
Entropy will win in the end for all things, but before the universe
settles down to an amorphous mass, a few other things will happen,
like all those clear sheets of supercooled liquid (a.k.a. glass)
puddling under my windows. That's going to let in the elements, which
can't be good for coin storage regardless of which brand of flips you
use.

I'll be happy if my specimens survive without visible damage long
enough for my children to appreciate what I've passed on to them. After
that, it's their problem!


It's only a matter of time until some loudmouth swings through here and
goes ad hominem on you for claiming that glass is a supercooled liquid.

Meanwhile, here's a disquisition on the topic:

http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physic...ass/glass.html

James the Vitreous


Wow. Thanks for the great link. It nicely explained the science, debunked
the "flowing glass" myth, discouraged the misnomer "supercooled liquid," but
rightfully demurred on the unanswerable question of whether glass is a
liquid or a solid. It was far superior to most of the links to
documentation that pass for "proof" on Usenet.

Shoulda checked first - I got the "supercooled liquid" explanation in high
school physics class in the 1960s... taught by a priest. Which probably
explains his reference to church glass as proof of the phenomenon. In
fairness, he was pretty sharp on science (he taught our chemistry class as
well) and our knowledge of sub-macroscopic properties of materials was less
sophisticated in the 1960s than it is today, so this presumably was a common
misperception even in scientific and engineering circles at the time.

I once participated in a project that involved the effects of "super-cooled
drizzle drops". From which my main take-away was that "Super-Cool Drizzle
Drops" would be a great name for a candy. :-D


 




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