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Numismatist on PVC



 
 
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  #21  
Old December 4th 09, 03:45 AM posted to rec.collecting.coins
Nick Knight
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 496
Default Numismatist on PVC

In , on 12/03/2009
at 08:23 AM, "mazorj" said:

So is any PVC-based flip really "safe" for long-term storage since they all
contain some amount of plasticizers? Or should we view all claims that
imply permanent safety as marketing puffery?


Is Mylar the gold standard? How safe are coins in Mylar? Which commercial
brand flips are made from Mylar?


-mazorj, now nervously eying his enflipped hoard


Argh, I should have read your post (and the subsequent replies) before
posting my own concerns/questions!

Nick
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  #22  
Old December 4th 09, 04:35 AM posted to rec.collecting.coins
mazorj
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,169
Default Numismatist on PVC


"Mr. Jaggers" lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com wrote in message
...
Reid Goldsborough wrote:
note.boy wrote:
I've had some coins in PVC holders for over 40 years without any
sign of damage, perhaps it depends up the exact chemical makeup of
the PVC. The PVC does appear to be of the "soft" variety but the coins
are
stored in a cold place, perhaps high temperatures allow the PVC to
do the damage, not a problem in Scotland. Billy


I've heard this from others too. Some like you have coins in soft
flips for years without problems. Others experience problems, first
just green goo then corrosion that eventually results from it -- PVC
damage -- within a year or two. And I think you hit it on the head
when saying it's probably a factor of individual differences in soft
flip chemistry as well as local weather conditions (heat, humidity).


Could it have anything to do with the fabric of the coins themselves?
I've seen more copper coins with the green goo than coins of silver or
nickel.


I would think so. I forget the proper technical term, but different
elements have higher or lower tendencies to react with other chemicals.
Nickel is relatively durable on mechanical wear and it also has a lower
tendency to react with certain other chemicals, notably oxygen. That's why
it's frequently found as a coating on firearms, appliances, inexpensive
jewelry, and decorative fixtures. So it's probably the most resistant of
the three while sitting in a flip.

Without knowing the exact indices for silver and copper, I'd estimate that
they are both sluts in the world of metals and their chemical interactions.
Unlike nickel and chromium and special compounds such as stainless steel,
they'll promiscuously couple with many Bad Boy elements that can lead to
their esthetic downfall. And I agree that while silver is far from immune,
in my experience it seems that copper is the one that really has the joneses
for plasticizers. Copper and silver probably are not the worst offenders
among the metals but they certainly are of too easy virtue for collectors
who want them to maintain their original virginal sheen.

Gold, of course, lives in its own noble, snobbish, rarefied world. It will
readily bind with its exotic cousin mercury and its poorer cousin, silver.
But it is far more chemically resistant than most other PMs to anything
likely to be found in the atmosphere or in a flip.

  #23  
Old December 4th 09, 04:58 AM posted to rec.collecting.coins
Bruce Remick
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,391
Default Numismatist on PVC


"mazorj" wrote in message
...

"Mr. Jaggers" lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com wrote in message
...
Reid Goldsborough wrote:
note.boy wrote:
I've had some coins in PVC holders for over 40 years without any
sign of damage, perhaps it depends up the exact chemical makeup of
the PVC. The PVC does appear to be of the "soft" variety but the coins
are
stored in a cold place, perhaps high temperatures allow the PVC to
do the damage, not a problem in Scotland. Billy

I've heard this from others too. Some like you have coins in soft
flips for years without problems. Others experience problems, first
just green goo then corrosion that eventually results from it -- PVC
damage -- within a year or two. And I think you hit it on the head
when saying it's probably a factor of individual differences in soft
flip chemistry as well as local weather conditions (heat, humidity).


Could it have anything to do with the fabric of the coins themselves?
I've seen more copper coins with the green goo than coins of silver or
nickel.


I would think so. I forget the proper technical term, but different
elements have higher or lower tendencies to react with other chemicals.
Nickel is relatively durable on mechanical wear and it also has a lower
tendency to react with certain other chemicals, notably oxygen. That's
why it's frequently found as a coating on firearms, appliances,
inexpensive jewelry, and decorative fixtures. So it's probably the most
resistant of the three while sitting in a flip.

Without knowing the exact indices for silver and copper, I'd estimate that
they are both sluts in the world of metals and their chemical
interactions. Unlike nickel and chromium and special compounds such as
stainless steel, they'll promiscuously couple with many Bad Boy elements
that can lead to their esthetic downfall. And I agree that while silver
is far from immune, in my experience it seems that copper is the one that
really has the joneses for plasticizers. Copper and silver probably are
not the worst offenders among the metals but they certainly are of too
easy virtue for collectors who want them to maintain their original
virginal sheen.


I've noticed that circulated silver-content wartime nickels seem susceptible
to that green verdigris and other crud over the years while the other dates
don't.





  #24  
Old December 4th 09, 05:16 AM posted to rec.collecting.coins
mazorj
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,169
Default Numismatist on PVC


"Nick Knight" wrote in message
...
In , on 12/03/2009
at 08:23 AM, "mazorj" said:

So is any PVC-based flip really "safe" for long-term storage since they
all
contain some amount of plasticizers? Or should we view all claims that
imply permanent safety as marketing puffery?


Is Mylar the gold standard? How safe are coins in Mylar? Which
commercial brand flips are made from Mylar?


-mazorj, now nervously eying his enflipped hoard


Argh, I should have read your post (and the subsequent replies) before
posting my own concerns/questions!


Yeah, I hate it when I do that. It's bad enough when your mouth starts
running ahead of your brain. When your brain starts running ahead of your
eyeballs in a newsgroup setting, that just asking for trouble.

OTOH, it seems that my ISP or my news provider is running behind on
propagating certain posts. I sent off one at 9:33 that still isn't showing
at my end and they usually pop up just seconds after I hit the Send/Receive
button on my reader. A few other posts are replies to earlier posts that
aren't showing either. Bad mojo tonight on the Internet servers. You can't
read ahead before posting to see if your point already has been made if
those posts aren't showing. :-(

  #25  
Old December 4th 09, 05:33 AM posted to rec.collecting.coins
mazorj
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,169
Default Numismatist on PVC


"Bruce Remick" wrote in message
...

"mazorj" wrote in message
...

"Mr. Jaggers" lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com wrote in message
...
Reid Goldsborough wrote:
note.boy wrote:
I've had some coins in PVC holders for over 40 years without any
sign of damage, perhaps it depends up the exact chemical makeup of
the PVC. The PVC does appear to be of the "soft" variety but the coins
are
stored in a cold place, perhaps high temperatures allow the PVC to
do the damage, not a problem in Scotland. Billy

I've heard this from others too. Some like you have coins in soft
flips for years without problems. Others experience problems, first
just green goo then corrosion that eventually results from it -- PVC
damage -- within a year or two. And I think you hit it on the head
when saying it's probably a factor of individual differences in soft
flip chemistry as well as local weather conditions (heat, humidity).

Could it have anything to do with the fabric of the coins themselves?
I've seen more copper coins with the green goo than coins of silver or
nickel.


I would think so. I forget the proper technical term, but different
elements have higher or lower tendencies to react with other chemicals.
Nickel is relatively durable on mechanical wear and it also has a lower
tendency to react with certain other chemicals, notably oxygen. That's
why it's frequently found as a coating on firearms, appliances,
inexpensive jewelry, and decorative fixtures. So it's probably the most
resistant of the three while sitting in a flip.

Without knowing the exact indices for silver and copper, I'd estimate
that they are both sluts in the world of metals and their chemical
interactions. Unlike nickel and chromium and special compounds such as
stainless steel, they'll promiscuously couple with many Bad Boy elements
that can lead to their esthetic downfall. And I agree that while silver
is far from immune, in my experience it seems that copper is the one that
really has the joneses for plasticizers. Copper and silver probably are
not the worst offenders among the metals but they certainly are of too
easy virtue for collectors who want them to maintain their original
virginal sheen.


I've noticed that circulated silver-content wartime nickels seem
susceptible to that green verdigris and other crud over the years while
the other dates don't.


That was my experience too, back when I naively was using recycled el
cheapos from vendors instead of buying the safe flips. (I now automatically
toss all flips that come with purchases and replace them with ones that I
know will be stable.) Another confirmatory data point on James' original
question. Thanks.

  #26  
Old December 4th 09, 06:53 PM posted to rec.collecting.coins
Reid Goldsborough[_2_]
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Posts: 357
Default Numismatist on PVC

How many others have found a coin in a dealer's stock at a show that was
in a soft flip, appearing not to have sold for many years and maybe not
even to have been looked at in some time, and when you pull it out it's
got the green goo of PVC damage on it. You show it to the dealer, and
with embarrassment he throws the coin into his briefcase or whatever
behind him.

Some dealers have moved away from soft flips, using the archival ones
(typically low-plasticizer PVC rather than Mylar). Others use 2x2s and
always have, though they have their own issues with staples, fumes from
the adhesive, cardboard dust, and so on. You sometimes still see coins
in paper envelopes, not an ideal storage solution either, with coins
sliding around and with seeing coins a hassle. Dealers like collectors
sometimes use still other storage/display options, trays and so on, also
none ideal, with coins sliding around in trays and with trays taking up
lots of space.

I still like archival low-plasticizer PVC flips. They're safe according
to all evidence, keep coins in place, let you insert paper inserts into
the second pocket for attribution and background information, allow for
easy viewing and fairly easy coin insertion and removal (though you need
to take a modicum of care so you don't scratch the coin on the stiff
edge), take up little space when placing them in coin boxes, and unlike
coin cabinets can be stored safely in a safe deposit box or home safe.

--

Consumer: http://rg.ancients.info/guide
Connoisseur: http://rg.ancients.info/glom
Counterfeit: http://rg.ancients.info/bogos
  #27  
Old December 4th 09, 10:16 PM posted to rec.collecting.coins
Mr. Jaggers
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,523
Default Numismatist on PVC

Reid Goldsborough wrote:
How many others have found a coin in a dealer's stock at a show that
was in a soft flip, appearing not to have sold for many years and
maybe not even to have been looked at in some time, and when you pull
it out it's got the green goo of PVC damage on it. You show it to the
dealer, and with embarrassment he throws the coin into his briefcase
or whatever behind him.

Some dealers have moved away from soft flips, using the archival ones
(typically low-plasticizer PVC rather than Mylar). Others use 2x2s and
always have, though they have their own issues with staples, fumes
from the adhesive, cardboard dust, and so on. You sometimes still see
coins in paper envelopes, not an ideal storage solution either, with
coins sliding around and with seeing coins a hassle. Dealers like
collectors sometimes use still other storage/display options, trays
and so on, also none ideal, with coins sliding around in trays and
with trays taking up lots of space.

I still like archival low-plasticizer PVC flips. They're safe
according to all evidence, keep coins in place, let you insert paper
inserts into the second pocket for attribution and background
information, allow for easy viewing and fairly easy coin insertion
and removal (though you need to take a modicum of care so you don't
scratch the coin on the stiff edge), take up little space when
placing them in coin boxes, and unlike coin cabinets can be stored
safely in a safe deposit box or home safe.


I've often wondered if those paper inserts might exude gases that could
migrate into the coin chamber and cause damage. Come to think of it, I
wonder the same thing about paper slab inserts.

James


  #28  
Old December 4th 09, 10:59 PM posted to rec.collecting.coins
note.boy
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,418
Default Numismatist on PVC


"mazorj" wrote in message
...

"note.boy" wrote in message
...
I've had some coins in PVC holders for over 40 years without any sign of
damage, perhaps it depends up the exact chemical makeup of the PVC.

The PVC does appear to be of the "soft" variety but the coins are stored
in a cold place, perhaps high temperatures allow the PVC to do the
damage, not a problem in Scotland. Billy


Yes, heat can speed up certain chemical reactions and cold can slow them
down. Higher temps combined with high humidity are the enemy of easily
oxidizable metal surfaces such as silver and copper. Is your area
relatively dry or is it like the stereotypical dank, foggy, rainy
portrayals of London?


We get a lot of rain here, at this time of the year we can go for a week or
two with no completely dry days.

We don't get much fog and the air quality is high compared to London for
example. Billy


  #29  
Old December 4th 09, 11:04 PM posted to rec.collecting.coins
note.boy
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,418
Default Numismatist on PVC


"Mr. Jaggers" lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com wrote in message
...
Reid Goldsborough wrote:
note.boy wrote:
I've had some coins in PVC holders for over 40 years without any
sign of damage, perhaps it depends up the exact chemical makeup of
the PVC. The PVC does appear to be of the "soft" variety but the coins
are
stored in a cold place, perhaps high temperatures allow the PVC to
do the damage, not a problem in Scotland. Billy


I've heard this from others too. Some like you have coins in soft
flips for years without problems. Others experience problems, first
just green goo then corrosion that eventually results from it -- PVC
damage -- within a year or two. And I think you hit it on the head
when saying it's probably a factor of individual differences in soft
flip chemistry as well as local weather conditions (heat, humidity).


Could it have anything to do with the fabric of the coins themselves?
I've seen more copper coins with the green goo than coins of silver or
nickel.

James


I have coins in a wide range of age, BC to very recent, and metals, copper,
bronze, silver, cupro nickel, and have not noticed any PVC problems.

They are Coindex brand holders. Billy


  #30  
Old December 4th 09, 11:10 PM posted to rec.collecting.coins
Reid Goldsborough[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 357
Default Numismatist on PVC

Mr. Jaggers wrote:

I've often wondered if those paper inserts might exude gases that could
migrate into the coin chamber and cause damage. Come to think of it, I
wonder the same thing about paper slab inserts.


You can buy archival paper for this. I do. Most don't. It's all about
minimizing risk. You can make yourself crazy worrying about risk you
can't control.

--

Consumer: http://rg.ancients.info/guide
Connoisseur: http://rg.ancients.info/glom
Counterfeit: http://rg.ancients.info/bogos
 




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