Type vs. Variety Question

The redbook seems pretty confused about large cent types. In the over-
view section before the listings begin, a box of type coins has entries
for "Coronet Head 1816-1839" and "Braided Hair 1840-1857". That seems
pretty clear! But a few pages later these categories are combined in a
section labeled "Coronet Type 1816-1857". This is then divided into two
parts, "Matron Head 1816-1835" and "Young Head 1835-1857". The listings
for 1840 don't even mention that we're perhaps starting a new type, the
last one for the LC!

I agree with an earlier poster that there's a pretty broad grey area in
defining types.

- Jim Roberts

"RF" wrote in message
...
I have a brass one myself.. think its a 1984-D, not sure... mom pulled it
from a bank box, of all 84-Ds if it is..
I also have a no FG cent, that has a great strike, and MS also, and I mean
zero sign of FG on the reverse..

Sam

"bri" wrote...

"Tony Clayton" wrote in message
...
In a recent message "Bob Flaminio" wrote:

wrote:
I have a question. This probably has been asked many times, but
what is the distinction between a type and a variety?

My standard definition is that if a layperson can tell the
difference,
it's a "type"; if not, it's a "variety".

For example, is
the Silver Washington Quarter a different type than the Clad
Washington Quarter? What about the Wartime Nickels?

Yes and yes. Major metal differences constitute a "type" by my
reckoning, although they might fail my standard definition.

Is the Copper-Plated Zinc cent different from the pre-1982 cents?

It's bizarre to me that so few collectors recognize Zincolns as a
separate type. PCGS does not even differentiate between the two
metals
when slabbing them. I know people who still consider the so-called
"shell case" cents of 1944-45 a "type", but not Zincolns. For my
part,
I
recognize four separate types in the Lincoln cent series:

1) Wheat reverse, copper
2) Wheat reverse, steel
3) Memorial reverse, copper
4) Memorial reverse, zinc

What about the years they included brass?
I would say these are all varieties of Lincoln cents.


Personally I would consider the VDB cents to be a different type
as there is a significant and clearly visible design difference.

There are 7 different reverse variations of designs--'FG' and the fonts
are
different-- for just the '92 Lincolns. Try finding all of those if you
want
a challenge--whew!
There's the level 7 1970S, large date and small date '60 and those wide
AM's
too. Then you have all those '82s--small date/large date coppers and
zincs.
I would say a Lincoln is a type of cent. Just like an Indian cent is a
type
of cent.
Everything else is a variation of those basic designs so you would have
varieties. Like those VDB's are a variety of Lincoln cent--they got
Lincoln
on the obverse.


And then you have different types of Ike dollars. They designate a type 1,2
and 3.
Some web sites list coins like this--
Lincoln cents --- types/varieties
Jefferson nickles --- types/varieties
Go figure ;-)

"Jim Roberts" wrote in message
...
The redbook seems pretty confused about large cent types. In the over-
view section before the listings begin, a box of type coins has entries
for "Coronet Head 1816-1839" and "Braided Hair 1840-1857". That seems
pretty clear! But a few pages later these categories are combined in a
section labeled "Coronet Type 1816-1857". This is then divided into two
parts, "Matron Head 1816-1835" and "Young Head 1835-1857". The listings
for 1840 don't even mention that we're perhaps starting a new type, the
last one for the LC!

I agree with an earlier poster that there's a pretty broad grey area in
defining types.

- Jim Roberts

The late date large cent "types" could be reckoned as follows:

1816-1835 Matron Head (there are some who would even subdivide this)
1835-1837 Young Head, plain hair cords
1837-1839 Young Head, beaded hair cords
1839 Head of 1836 (plain hair cord), actually the overdate
1839 Booby Head
1839 Silly Head
1839-1843 Petite Mature Head
1843-1857 Mature Head

As can be seen, the year 1839 can be collected with 5 distinct heads!

And none of this even addresses the issue of reverse variations.

My conclusion: do what makes sense to you.

James
'adding to the confusion on purpose'

bri wrote:
For my part, I recognize four separate types in the
Lincoln cent series:

1) Wheat reverse, copper
2) Wheat reverse, steel
3) Memorial reverse, copper
4) Memorial reverse, zinc

What about the years they included brass?
I would say these are all varieties of Lincoln cents.

Here's a breakout I did a while back on Lincoln Cent types, since
amended:

0. The PCGS "Design" Types:
1. Lincoln Cent (1909-now)

I. Major design changes:
1. Wheat reverse (1909-58)
2. Memorial reverse (1959-now)

I½. The PCGS "Complete" Types:
1. Wheat, copper (1909-42, 44-58)
2. Wheat, steel (1943)
3. Memorial (1959-now)

(This is also known as the PCGS Copper, Nickel, and Silver Type set,
even though the 1943 cent contains none of these metals.)

II. Major design changes with major metal changes (aka PCGS "Major"
Types):
1. Wheat, copper (1909-42, 44-58)
2. Wheat, steel (1943)
3. Memorial, copper (1959-82)
4. Memorial, zinc (1982-now)

II¼. The NGC "Small Cent" Types:
1. Wheat, copper, VDB (1909)
2. Wheat, copper (1909-42, 44-58)
3. Wheat, steel (1943)
4. Memorial (1959-now)

II½. Major design changes, major metal changes, plus 1909 VDB:
1. Wheat, copper, VDB (1909)
2. Wheat, copper (1909-42, 44-58)
3. Wheat, steel (1943)
4. Memorial, copper (1959-82)
5. Memorial, zinc (1982-now)

(AKA The "Tony Clayton" set.)

III. Major design changes with minor metal changes:
1. Wheat, 95% copper, 5% tin/zinc (1909-42, 47-58)
2. Wheat, zinc-coated steel (1943)
3. Wheat, 95% copper, 5% zinc (no tin) (1944-46)
4. Memorial, 95% copper, 5% tin/zinc (1959-62)
5. Memorial, 95% copper, 5% zinc (no tin) (1962-82)
6. Memorial, 99.2% zinc, 0.8% copper (1982-now)

(Note that in 1962, like 1982, there were actually two different metal
compositions. No one in the known Universe recognizes these as separate
types; indeed, I have never even seen a reliable method of
distinguishing them.)

IV. As above, with designer's initials' changes:
1. Wheat, VDB on reverse (1909)
2. Wheat, no VDB (1909-17)
3. Wheat, VDB on obverse, 95% copper, 5% tin/zinc (1918-42, 47-58)
4. Wheat, VDB on obverse, zinc-coated steel (1943)
5. Wheat, VDB on obverse, 95% copper, 5% zinc (no tin) (1944-46)
6. Memorial, 95% copper, 5% tin/zinc (1959-62)
7. Memorial, 95% copper, 5% zinc (no tin) (1962-82)
8. Memorial, 99.2% zinc, 0.8% copper (1982-now)

V. The PCGS "Type Set With Variations" standard:
1. Wheat reverse, VDB on reverse (1909)
2. Wheat reverse, no VDB (1909-1917)
3. Wheat reverse, VDB on obverse (1918-1958)
4. Steel (1943)
5. Shell case copper (1944-1946)
6. Memorial, bronze (1959-1982)
7. Memorial, zinc (1983-1999)

(There's that shell case stuff again! Interesting that they include this
"type", yet not the post-1962 metal change, which is equally
significant.)

This is just for circulation strikes. If you include proofs, you'll
probably need to add the following, sprinkled in as you see fit:
1. Wheat reverse, VDB proof (1909)
2. Wheat, matte proof (1909-16)
3. Wheat, brilliant proof (1936-58)
4. Memorial, copper proof (1959-82)
5. Memorial, zinc proof (1982-now)

Other permutations are possible as well. *None* of the above can be
called the "correct". As always, collect what you like.

--
Bob

Bob Flaminio wrote:
This is just for circulation strikes. If you include proofs, you'll
probably need to add the following, sprinkled in as you see fit:
1. Wheat reverse, VDB proof (1909)
2. Wheat, matte proof (1909-16)
3. Wheat, brilliant proof (1936-58)
4. Memorial, copper proof (1959-82)
5. Memorial, zinc proof (1982-now)

Just piling on now...

Amended Proof Types:
1. Wheat reverse, VDB proof (1909)
2. Wheat, matte proof (1909-16)
3. Wheat, brilliant proof (1936-42, 50-58)
4. Memorial, 95% copper, 5% tin/zinc proof (1959-62)
5. Memorial, 95% copper, 5% zinc (no tin) proof (1962-64, 68-82)
6. Memorial, SMS (1965-67)
7. Memorial, zinc proof (1983-now)

Here's a big list including both circulation strikes and proofs:

1. Wheat, VDB on reverse (1909)
2. Wheat, VDB proof (1909)
3. Wheat, matte proof (1909-16)
4. Wheat, no VDB (1909-17)
5. Wheat, VDB on obverse, 95% copper, 5% tin/zinc (1918-42, 47-58)
6. Wheat, brilliant proof (1936-42, 50-58)
7. Wheat, VDB on obverse, zinc-coated steel (1943)
8. Wheat, VDB on obverse, 95% copper, 5% zinc (no tin) (1944-46)
9. Memorial, 95% copper, 5% tin/zinc (1959-62)
10. Memorial, 95% copper, 5% tin/zinc proof (1959-62)
11. Memorial, 95% copper, 5% zinc (no tin) (1962-82)
12. Memorial, 95% copper, 5% zinc (no tin) proof (1962-64, 68-82)
13. Memorial, SMS (1965-67)
14. Memorial, 99.2% zinc, 0.8% copper (1982-now)
15. Memorial, 99.2% zinc, 0.8% copper proof (1983-now)

So who all's got 15 Lincoln cent types in their type sets?

One more...

X. Memorial, aluminum (1974)
Who was in charge of cleaning out Senator Thurmond's desk, anyway?

--
Bob

On Fri, 4 Feb 2005 11:32:12 -0800, "Bob Flaminio"
is alleged to have written:

Here's a big list including both circulation strikes and proofs:

1. Wheat, VDB on reverse (1909)
2. Wheat, VDB proof (1909)
3. Wheat, matte proof (1909-16)
4. Wheat, no VDB (1909-17)
5. Wheat, VDB on obverse, 95% copper, 5% tin/zinc (1918-42, 47-58)
6. Wheat, brilliant proof (1936-42, 50-58)
7. Wheat, VDB on obverse, zinc-coated steel (1943)
8. Wheat, VDB on obverse, 95% copper, 5% zinc (no tin) (1944-46)
9. Memorial, 95% copper, 5% tin/zinc (1959-62)
10. Memorial, 95% copper, 5% tin/zinc proof (1959-62)
11. Memorial, 95% copper, 5% zinc (no tin) (1962-82)
12. Memorial, 95% copper, 5% zinc (no tin) proof (1962-64, 68-82)
13. Memorial, SMS (1965-67)
14. Memorial, 99.2% zinc, 0.8% copper (1982-now)
15. Memorial, 99.2% zinc, 0.8% copper proof (1983-now)

So who all's got 15 Lincoln cent types in their type sets?


I've got every one except that DAMN matte proof 1909 VDB. Ira can
score a pcgsMS65RED 09svdb, but he can't find a matte proof VDB around
63RB or so. He's worthless. :-)


One more...

X. Memorial, aluminum (1974)

No comment. :-)


Who was in charge of cleaning out Senator Thurmond's desk, anyway?

Strom's coin is one that was never accounted for.

Bruce


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"Bob Flaminio" wrote in message
...
Bob Flaminio wrote:
This is just for circulation strikes. If you include proofs, you'll
probably need to add the following, sprinkled in as you see fit:
1. Wheat reverse, VDB proof (1909)
2. Wheat, matte proof (1909-16)
3. Wheat, brilliant proof (1936-58)
4. Memorial, copper proof (1959-82)
5. Memorial, zinc proof (1982-now)

Just piling on now...

Amended Proof Types:
1. Wheat reverse, VDB proof (1909)
2. Wheat, matte proof (1909-16)
3. Wheat, brilliant proof (1936-42, 50-58)
4. Memorial, 95% copper, 5% tin/zinc proof (1959-62)
5. Memorial, 95% copper, 5% zinc (no tin) proof (1962-64, 68-82)
6. Memorial, SMS (1965-67)
7. Memorial, zinc proof (1983-now)

Here's a big list including both circulation strikes and proofs:

1. Wheat, VDB on reverse (1909)
2. Wheat, VDB proof (1909)
3. Wheat, matte proof (1909-16)
4. Wheat, no VDB (1909-17)
5. Wheat, VDB on obverse, 95% copper, 5% tin/zinc (1918-42, 47-58)
6. Wheat, brilliant proof (1936-42, 50-58)
7. Wheat, VDB on obverse, zinc-coated steel (1943)
8. Wheat, VDB on obverse, 95% copper, 5% zinc (no tin) (1944-46)
9. Memorial, 95% copper, 5% tin/zinc (1959-62)
10. Memorial, 95% copper, 5% tin/zinc proof (1959-62)
11. Memorial, 95% copper, 5% zinc (no tin) (1962-82)
12. Memorial, 95% copper, 5% zinc (no tin) proof (1962-64, 68-82)
13. Memorial, SMS (1965-67)
14. Memorial, 99.2% zinc, 0.8% copper (1982-now)
15. Memorial, 99.2% zinc, 0.8% copper proof (1983-now)

So who all's got 15 Lincoln cent types in their type sets?

One more...

X. Memorial, aluminum (1974)
Who was in charge of cleaning out Senator Thurmond's desk, anyway?

--
Bob

How about those WW2 shell casing cents? What year--1943 I think (?) Not
sure. There's like 12 known.
Brass? Some Lincolns have brass in them up until 1974 or '79 --something
like that.
What about some double-dies and RPM's? Just the well known ones.

I think the 20th century type sets should just have one Kennedy half.

I have a Capital plastics set with
Barber Half
Walking Liberty Half
Franklin Half
Kennedy 90% silver 1964 only
Kennedy 40% silver 1965-70
Kennedy clad 1971-
Kennedy bicentennial 40% silver
Kennedy bicentennial clad


They left out
Kennedy 1991-on with little head, stringy hair, low relief and sunken cheeks
that is a parody of the original design.

Frank Provasek wrote:
I think the 20th century type sets should just have one Kennedy half.

I have a Capital plastics set with
Barber Half
Walking Liberty Half
Franklin Half
Kennedy 90% silver 1964 only
Kennedy 40% silver 1965-70
Kennedy clad 1971-
Kennedy bicentennial 40% silver
Kennedy bicentennial clad

Yep, that's too many Kennedys. In my "type" definition, I don't include
the bicentennials -- I prefer to put them in a separate categorization
of "circulating commemoratives" that also includes SQs and L&C nickels.
Including circulating commems as "types" was borderline with the
bicentennials; with the SQs it's just ridiculous.

One other interesting type-oid about halves is that if you back up one
more series, you get five different "types" of Seated halves -- same
number as Kennedys in your table above.

--
Bob

bri wrote:
How about those WW2 shell casing cents? What year--1943 I think (?)
Not sure. There's like 12 known.

The so-called "shell-case" cents were minted from 1944-46, and included
in several of my listings earlier. They are by no means rare; worth more
than face in only the higher uncirculated grades.

You may be thinking of the few copper cents erroneously struck in 1943.
While these are interesting errors, they are technically not a different
"type". Even if they are considered "normal", they are still identical
to the type of 1942.

FWIW, there were also a few 1944 cents erroneously struck on steel
planchets. IMHO, these are much more interesting than the 1943 copper
cents. Not that I could afford either one, mind you...

Brass? Some Lincolns have brass in them up until 1974 or '79
--something like that.

"Brass" is just an alloy of copper and zinc. ("Bronze" is copper and
tin.) All of the cents from 1962 into 1982 can technically be called
"brass"; however, I don't think there's enough zinc in them to be brass
as most recognize.

What about some double-dies and RPM's? Just the well known ones.

Errors and varieties. I doubt any "type" collectors would include them.
Even most series collectors would not. Only a specialist would get down
into RPMs and doubled stuff, I would think.

--
Bob