Curiosity Corner #101 Who owns the stamps on mail?

http://groups.msn.com/Stamps/shoebox...to&PhotoID=340

Courtesy Aust Stamp News 1991
Author Les Winick Chicago


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"Rodney" skrev i en meddelelse
...
http://groups.msn.com/Stamps/shoebox...to&PhotoID=340

Good question! Exactly the same thing happened to me a couple of years ago,
when I sent a letter to a friend in Holland, franked with a new issue, and
cancelled on the day of issue, particularly meant for my friend's topical
collection. When the letter arrived in Holland, the stamp had carefully
been lifted off, and only the remaining part of the cancellation on the
cover itself was left! The Danish post office rejected any claim, stating
that the stamp could have fallen off during the travel to Holland. The
Dutch post office rejected any claim, stating that their job was to deliver
the mail, which they had done.

But it was still obvious that the stamp had been removed by someone
unauthorized ...
--
Ann Mette Heindorff (Mette)
return address invalid -- contact me through
heindorffstamps at yahoo dot dk
http://www.arthistos.frac.dk
http://www.xs4all.nl/~pkv/slania
http://www.dkchristmasseals.frac.dk

This is the only problem with 'controlled' mail. Even so, since the post
office caters to stamp collecting it would be in their interest to prevent
this kind of abuse.

It happens that certain postal employees are knowledgeable collectors. Some
of them, evidently, see the profit in lifting high-value stamps, or
anything they can get away. Dealers also provide a ready market for any
items with a potential mark-up.

Technically it's mail theft since in this case the sender and recipient are
trading in stamps. I suggest hiring a big-time lawyer and going for broke
against the government. Please keep this newsgroup posted as to your
progress. :-)

-a


--

Reply? Not to above.
Use

"Rodney" wrote in message
...
http://groups.msn.com/Stamps/shoebox...to&PhotoID=340

Courtesy Aust Stamp News 1991
Author Les Winick Chicago


(Remove gum to reply)

On Fri, 28 May 2004 15:12:54 +0800, "Rodney"
wrote:

http://groups.msn.com/Stamps/shoebox...to&PhotoID=340

Courtesy Aust Stamp News 1991
Author Les Winick Chicago


(Remove gum to reply)



I read a story, about a year ago I reckon, where the postman at the
door removed the stamps from the package before handing it over.

The protest that followed was answered with something like " the
stamps are and remain property of the post, you only pay for the
tranport of the package. You are not entittled to these stamps."

If this story is true? I can't tell, but It was published in the
philatellic press. (can't recall which paper it was).

Erik

The replies all touched on the refulsal of the post to reimburse for
lost stamps on mail, not the question of who owns the stamps.

Under an obscure U.S. law, the post office owns the stamps on the
letters, even after you receive them. Technically, in this country,
the theft was from the post office, not the sender or the receiver of
the mail. In the case of international mail, which government was the
victim is yet to be deterined. If the government from which the mail
left doesn't have the same law as the U.S. does, then the victim would
be some other owner. In countries where the post offices have been
privatized, then the post office as a commercial entity and not a
government would be the victim - unless the commercial entity sells
the stamps and doesn't actually treat them as advance receipts isssued
for services provided. As governmental issues, stamps are obligations
of the state - commercial firms well products - they can't issue
official obligations like that.

In the case of Germany, when you mail a package, the stamps go on a
parcel tag, not on the package itself - and the post office keeps the
tag on arrival. You can't claim the stamps from the tag - the postal
clerk will tell you that they belong to the state (the state Finance
Ministry issues the stamps that the German privatized post office uses
and which "sells" as agent of the treasurer).

In years past, one of the best ways to get quantities of used high
value stamps was through state auctions of the mailing tags.... it was
in these auctions that the state actually sold the property rights to
the use stamps.

Technically, in countries where the stamps are obligations of the
state, and to the extent they haven't been demonetized, they state
could confiscate collections as being full of state owned property.

When Europe went to the Euro and administrations "bought" back old
stamps demonetized in the former national currencies, they were not
"buying" back anything, they were merely refunding what mailers paid
in advance for services that could no longer be given using the
"obligations to perform a service in the future through the use of the
stamps" that people had purchased in advance.

In short, getting the state to procesute someone who stole the stamps
off a letter sent to you is going to be tough - and even if your
bagatelle complaint managed to get action, the state would maybe not
be under any obligation to turn its property over to you even if it
found out who took it and managed to retreive it.

Len Nadybal
Washington DC



On Fri, 28 May 2004 15:12:54 +0800, "Rodney"
wrote:

http://groups.msn.com/Stamps/shoebox...to&PhotoID=340

Courtesy Aust Stamp News 1991
Author Les Winick Chicago


(Remove gum to reply)

LN in DC wrote:
The replies all touched on the refulsal of the post to reimburse for
lost stamps on mail, not the question of who owns the stamps.

Under an obscure U.S. law, the post office owns the stamps on the
letters, even after you receive them. Technically, in this country,
the theft was from the post office, not the sender or the receiver of
the mail. In the case of international mail, which government was the
victim is yet to be deterined. If the government from which the mail
left doesn't have the same law as the U.S. does, then the victim would
be some other owner. In countries where the post offices have been
privatized, then the post office as a commercial entity and not a
government would be the victim - unless the commercial entity sells
the stamps and doesn't actually treat them as advance receipts isssued
for services provided. As governmental issues, stamps are obligations
of the state - commercial firms well products - they can't issue
official obligations like that.

In the case of Germany, when you mail a package, the stamps go on a
parcel tag, not on the package itself - and the post office keeps the
tag on arrival. You can't claim the stamps from the tag - the postal
clerk will tell you that they belong to the state (the state Finance
Ministry issues the stamps that the German privatized post office uses
and which "sells" as agent of the treasurer).

In years past, one of the best ways to get quantities of used high
value stamps was through state auctions of the mailing tags.... it was
in these auctions that the state actually sold the property rights to
the use stamps.

Technically, in countries where the stamps are obligations of the
state, and to the extent they haven't been demonetized, they state
could confiscate collections as being full of state owned property.

When Europe went to the Euro and administrations "bought" back old
stamps demonetized in the former national currencies, they were not
"buying" back anything, they were merely refunding what mailers paid
in advance for services that could no longer be given using the
"obligations to perform a service in the future through the use of the
stamps" that people had purchased in advance.

In short, getting the state to procesute someone who stole the stamps
off a letter sent to you is going to be tough - and even if your
bagatelle complaint managed to get action, the state would maybe not
be under any obligation to turn its property over to you even if it
found out who took it and managed to retreive it.

Len Nadybal
Washington DC

Interesting. Do you have any cites for these laws?

= Eric

On Fri, 28 May 2004 15:12:54 +0800, "Rodney"
wrote:

http://groups.msn.com/Stamps/shoebox...to&PhotoID=340

Courtesy Aust Stamp News 1991
Author Les Winick Chicago


(Remove gum to reply)

Hi, Eric,

It all starts from:

TITLE 18 US Code PART I CHAPTER 1 Sec. 1. Sec. 8.

Sec. 8. - Obligation or other security of the United States defined

The term ''obligation or other security of the United States''
includes all bonds, certificates of indebtedness, national bank
currency, Federal Reserve notes, Federal Reserve bank notes, coupons,
United States notes, Treasury notes, gold certificates, silver
certificates, fractional notes, certificates of deposit, bills,
checks, or drafts for money, drawn by or upon authorized officers of
the United States, stamps and other representatives of value, of
whatever denomination, issued under any Act of Congress, and canceled
United States stamps"
---


Note "canceled US stamps - that includes used ones.

Nothing in the law intends that the nature of these things as
obligation of the U. S. shall cease, even once cancelled!

Collectors of stamps are, in legal reality, accumulators of
obligations fof the U. S.

About the German post - I'll have to research that a little.
There was an analysis of the legal property rights over German stamps
in the Deutsche Briefmarken Zeitung years ago, but I'm not sure that
it was an article I clipped. maybe.

There's an Autralian post website that makes reference to this issue -
how if you ask for personalized stamps and they print them and later
find out you plagiarized or stole someone else's image for placement
on an obligation of the Australian government, how you have committed
a crime of more than just copyright violation, but defrauded the state
by causing it to reproduce a fraudulent image on a fiscal document of
the state.

Regards

LN






On Mon, 31 May 2004 11:59:50 -0700, Eric Bustad
wrote:

LN in DC wrote:
The replies all touched on the refulsal of the post to reimburse for
lost stamps on mail, not the question of who owns the stamps.

Under an obscure U.S. law, the post office owns the stamps on the
letters, even after you receive them. Technically, in this country,
the theft was from the post office, not the sender or the receiver of
the mail. In the case of international mail, which government was the
victim is yet to be deterined. If the government from which the mail
left doesn't have the same law as the U.S. does, then the victim would
be some other owner. In countries where the post offices have been
privatized, then the post office as a commercial entity and not a
government would be the victim - unless the commercial entity sells
the stamps and doesn't actually treat them as advance receipts isssued
for services provided. As governmental issues, stamps are obligations
of the state - commercial firms well products - they can't issue
official obligations like that.

In the case of Germany, when you mail a package, the stamps go on a
parcel tag, not on the package itself - and the post office keeps the
tag on arrival. You can't claim the stamps from the tag - the postal
clerk will tell you that they belong to the state (the state Finance
Ministry issues the stamps that the German privatized post office uses
and which "sells" as agent of the treasurer).

In years past, one of the best ways to get quantities of used high
value stamps was through state auctions of the mailing tags.... it was
in these auctions that the state actually sold the property rights to
the use stamps.

Technically, in countries where the stamps are obligations of the
state, and to the extent they haven't been demonetized, they state
could confiscate collections as being full of state owned property.

When Europe went to the Euro and administrations "bought" back old
stamps demonetized in the former national currencies, they were not
"buying" back anything, they were merely refunding what mailers paid
in advance for services that could no longer be given using the
"obligations to perform a service in the future through the use of the
stamps" that people had purchased in advance.

In short, getting the state to procesute someone who stole the stamps
off a letter sent to you is going to be tough - and even if your
bagatelle complaint managed to get action, the state would maybe not
be under any obligation to turn its property over to you even if it
found out who took it and managed to retreive it.

Len Nadybal
Washington DC

Interesting. Do you have any cites for these laws?

= Eric

On Fri, 28 May 2004 15:12:54 +0800, "Rodney"
wrote:

http://groups.msn.com/Stamps/shoebox...to&PhotoID=340

Courtesy Aust Stamp News 1991
Author Les Winick Chicago


(Remove gum to reply)

Here's the provision relating to foreign stamps in the U.S.:

TITLE 18 PART I CHAPTER 1 Sec. 1. Sec. 15. Prev | Next

Sec. 15. - Obligation or other security of foreign government defined

The term ''obligation or other security of any foreign government''
includes, but is not limited to, uncanceled stamps, whether or not
demonetized"


LN

(LN in DC) wrote in message om...

Under an obscure U.S. law, the post office owns the stamps on the
letters, even after you receive them.

I looked at the U.S. Code online at
http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/ and was unable to locate this law,
and I wonder how such a law could be consistent with the existence of
philately. Wouldn't all the sales of U.S. stamps by private parties
be invalid if the sellers never owned the stamps?

When Europe went to the Euro and administrations "bought" back old
stamps demonetized in the former national currencies, they were not
"buying" back anything, they were merely refunding what mailers paid
in advance for services that could no longer be given using the
"obligations to perform a service in the future through the use of the
stamps" that people had purchased in advance.

I do not know what all of the European postal services did with regard
to refunding stamps denominated in the pre-euro currencies, but not
all of them declared that mailing services could not be provided using
stamps denominated in the old currency. According to the following
article, France, at least, continues to accept stamps denominated in
francs at the fixed franc-euro conversion rate.
http://faqphilatelie.lautre.net/arti...?id_article=58
(article in French)

Also, Sweden's postal service would have continued to accept stamps
denominated in krona if Sweden had adopted the euro, based on the
krona-euro conversion rate which would have been fixed. As it turned
out, Sweden didn't adopt the euro so that didn't become necessary.
http://www.championstamp.com/Acrobat/ChampionSC.pdf

Other euro-using countries have different practices. Finland will
allow use of denominated stamps through 2011, for example.
http://www.posti.fi/english/tariffsa...urocalculator/

Joshua Kreitzer

(Joshua Kreitzer) wrote in message . com...

Other euro-using countries have different practices. Finland will
allow use of denominated stamps through 2011, for example.

That should say "mark-denominated stamps through 2011."

Joshua Kreitzer