A collecting forum. CollectingBanter

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » CollectingBanter forum » Collecting newsgroups » Coins
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

Need ID of Hungarian Medal or translation



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old February 23rd 05, 05:22 AM
TheDimeMan
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Need ID of Hungarian Medal or translation

KELCZ GYULAK Kelcz family name, first name Gyulak

KLOBUSICZKY LIVIA Klobusiczky family name, first name, Livia



SZERENCSES LUCKY OR A SURNAME

NASZNAPJUK ?

KEDVES EMLEKERE LOVABLE ?

BUDAPESTEN Budapest, Capital of Hungary

1892 OKTOBER 14EN probably date of wedding, Oct 14th, 1892

AJANLJA MULLER JOZSEF engravor



Will post scan tomorrow on alt.binaries.pictures.numismatic



Medal is small proof bronze with two coat of arms on obverse and above
inscriptions on reverse. Engravers name near edge below on reverse.



TheDimeMan








Ads
  #2  
Old February 23rd 05, 05:11 PM
TheDimeMan
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

See scan of medal on alt.binaries.pictures.numismatic


"TheDimeMan" wrote in message
ink.net...
KELCZ GYULAK Kelcz family name, first name Gyulak

KLOBUSICZKY LIVIA Klobusiczky family name, first name, Livia



SZERENCSES LUCKY OR A SURNAME

NASZNAPJUK ?

KEDVES EMLEKERE LOVABLE ?

BUDAPESTEN Budapest, Capital of Hungary

1892 OKTOBER 14EN probably date of wedding, Oct 14th, 1892

AJANLJA MULLER JOZSEF engravor



Will post scan tomorrow on alt.binaries.pictures.numismatic



Medal is small proof bronze with two coat of arms on obverse and above
inscriptions on reverse. Engravers name near edge below on reverse.



TheDimeMan










  #3  
Old February 24th 05, 02:29 PM
Mike Marotta
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Pretty good translation, there, Dime Man! Was that from Babblefish, or
are you ...

KELCZ GYULAK
Kelcz family name, first name Gyulak


First name Gyula = Julius. The k shows something grammatical.
Hungarian is highly inflected: adessive, inessive, progressive,
regressive, as well as the more common nominative, genitive, dative,
accusative, vocative, and ablative known from Latin, Greek, Russian,
etc. My guess is "From Julius Kelcz" but "To Julius Kelcz" (and the
happy bride, of course) is also possible; see below.

SZERENCSES

Happy (lucky, fortunate)

NASZNAPJUK ?

NASZ = Wedding
NAP = day
juk (something grammatical? on, to, for ...)

KEDVES = Dear, etc.
EMLEKERE = medal, medallion (shares roots with "memory" words, but
means medal or medallion)

BUDAPESTEN
~en = In Budapest

AJANLJA MULLER JOZSEF
Presented by Joseph Muller, perhaps, unless you know that he was the
engraver.

(But can you PRONOUNCE it?? Szernecses would be transliterated into
American as Sair-nech-esh or perhaps serneh-chesh... Reminding me of
the GREEN ACRES where Lisa goes to college and the professor writes
PSYCHE on the blackboard and Lisa says "p-shee-shee"...)

Szervusz,
Marotta Mihaly

  #4  
Old February 24th 05, 02:35 PM
James Higby
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Mike Marotta" wrote in message
oups.com...
(But can you PRONOUNCE it?? Szernecses would be transliterated into
American as Sair-nech-esh or perhaps serneh-chesh... Reminding me of
the GREEN ACRES where Lisa goes to college and the professor writes
PSYCHE on the blackboard and Lisa says "p-shee-shee"...)

Szervusz,
Marotta Mihaly


Michael, are you knowledgeable regarding the topic of transliteration? If
so, I have a question that no one has ever been able to answer. It could
even be construed as applicable to coins.

James


  #5  
Old February 24th 05, 09:29 PM
gogu
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

? "Mike Marotta" ?????? ??? ??????
oups.com...
Pretty good translation, there, Dime Man! Was that from Babblefish, or
are you ...

KELCZ GYULAK
Kelcz family name, first name Gyulak


First name Gyula = Julius. The k shows something grammatical.
Hungarian is highly inflected: adessive, inessive, progressive,
regressive, as well as the more common nominative, genitive, dative,
accusative, vocative, and ablative known from Latin, Greek, Russian,
etc. My guess is "From Julius Kelcz" but "To Julius Kelcz" (and the
happy bride, of course) is also possible; see below.

SZERENCSES

Happy (lucky, fortunate)

NASZNAPJUK ?

NASZ = Wedding
NAP = day
juk (something grammatical? on, to, for ...)

KEDVES = Dear, etc.
EMLEKERE = medal, medallion (shares roots with "memory" words, but
means medal or medallion)

BUDAPESTEN
~en = In Budapest

AJANLJA MULLER JOZSEF
Presented by Joseph Muller, perhaps, unless you know that he was the
engraver.

(But can you PRONOUNCE it?? Szernecses would be transliterated into
American as Sair-nech-esh or perhaps serneh-chesh... Reminding me of
the GREEN ACRES where Lisa goes to college and the professor writes
PSYCHE on the blackboard and Lisa says "p-shee-shee"...)

Szervusz,
Marotta Mihaly



Ighen :-)


Here is my interpretation:

################################################## ############

KELCZ GYULAK KLOBUSICZKY LIVIA SZERENCSES NASZNAPJUK KEDVES EMLEKERE
BUDAPESTEN 1892 OKTOBER 14-EN AJANLJA MULLER JOZSEF


Kelcz Gyula & Klobusiczky Livia szerencsés násznapjuk kedves emlékére
Budapesten 1892 október 14-én (i.e., tizennégyedikén) ajánlja Müller
József

approx.:

"József Müller (Josef Müller) offers/proposes/bids/issues(?) (a medal)
kindly commemorating/evoking/remembering Gyula (Julius) Kelcz's [read
kelts] and Livia Klobusiczky's [read claw-boo-****z-ky] lucky wedding
(day) in Budapest on Oct. 14th, 1892". (Or: "(a medal) issued by J.M.
commemorating GK's & LK's ...")

(actually, rather "lucky nuptial/s" nász-; for "wedding" one rather
chooses esküvö)

(read: Kelcz [kelts], Klobusiczky [claw-boo-****s-kee])

################################################## ############

Szervusz.

--
E' mai possibile, oh porco di un cane, che le avventure
in codesto reame debban risolversi tutte con grandi
puttane! F.d.A

Coins: http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/golanule/my_photos
http://gogu.enosi.org/index.html
http://www.romclub.4t.com/rabin.html



  #6  
Old February 24th 05, 09:32 PM
gogu
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Ï "James Higby" heezerbumfrool[at]hotmail[dot]com Ýãñáøå óôï ìÞíõìá
...

"Mike Marotta" wrote in message
oups.com...
(But can you PRONOUNCE it?? Szernecses would be transliterated into
American as Sair-nech-esh or perhaps serneh-chesh... Reminding me of
the GREEN ACRES where Lisa goes to college and the professor writes
PSYCHE on the blackboard and Lisa says "p-shee-shee"...)

Szervusz,
Marotta Mihaly



Michael, are you knowledgeable regarding the topic of transliteration? If
so, I have a question that no one has ever been able to answer. It could
even be construed as applicable to coins.



I could help you James if it has something to do with Hungarian or with
linguistics in general, though in a limited degree...
Even if I can't help you I have a good friend who is quite knowledgeable in
the sector.

--
E' mai possibile, oh porco di un cane, che le avventure
in codesto reame debban risolversi tutte con grandi
puttane! F.d.A

Coins: http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/golanule/my_photos
http://gogu.enosi.org/index.html
http://www.romclub.4t.com/rabin.html


James




  #7  
Old February 25th 05, 12:34 AM
James Higby
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"gogu" wrote in message
...
Ï "James Higby" heezerbumfrool[at]hotmail[dot]com Ýãñáøå óôï ìÞíõìá
...

"Mike Marotta" wrote in message
oups.com...
(But can you PRONOUNCE it?? Szernecses would be transliterated into
American as Sair-nech-esh or perhaps serneh-chesh... Reminding me of
the GREEN ACRES where Lisa goes to college and the professor writes
PSYCHE on the blackboard and Lisa says "p-shee-shee"...)

Szervusz,
Marotta Mihaly



Michael, are you knowledgeable regarding the topic of transliteration?
If
so, I have a question that no one has ever been able to answer. It could
even be construed as applicable to coins.



I could help you James if it has something to do with Hungarian or with
linguistics in general, though in a limited degree...
Even if I can't help you I have a good friend who is quite knowledgeable
in
the sector.


OK, I'll start with a simple one.When I was in high school I learned that
the Islamic holy book was the KORAN, spelled thus. I knew it wasn't really
spelled that way, as it is an Arabic word, written in Arabic, but spelled
phonetically with the Western alphabet for those of us who do not read
Arabic.

But now all of a sudden the transliteration has become QU'RAN. In my view,
this is not nearly as straightforward as KORAN. Why the QU instead of the
simpler and unambiguous K? And what's the deal with the apostrophe?

So as to go back on the topic of coins, why are some unit coins of Arabic
countries called RIALS while others are called RIYALS? Seems to me those
two spellings represent identical sounds.

James


  #8  
Old February 25th 05, 11:02 PM
gogu
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Ï "James Higby" heezerbumfrool[at]hotmail[dot]com Ýãñáøå óôï ìÞíõìá
...

"gogu" wrote in message
...
Ï "James Higby" heezerbumfrool[at]hotmail[dot]com Ýãñáøå óôï ìÞíõìá
...

"Mike Marotta" wrote in message
oups.com...
(But can you PRONOUNCE it?? Szernecses would be transliterated into
American as Sair-nech-esh or perhaps serneh-chesh... Reminding me of
the GREEN ACRES where Lisa goes to college and the professor writes
PSYCHE on the blackboard and Lisa says "p-shee-shee"...)

Szervusz,
Marotta Mihaly



Michael, are you knowledgeable regarding the topic of transliteration?
If
so, I have a question that no one has ever been able to answer. It
could
even be construed as applicable to coins.



I could help you James if it has something to do with Hungarian or with
linguistics in general, though in a limited degree...
Even if I can't help you I have a good friend who is quite knowledgeable
in
the sector.



OK, I'll start with a simple one.When I was in high school I learned that
the Islamic holy book was the KORAN, spelled thus. I knew it wasn't
really spelled that way, as it is an Arabic word, written in Arabic, but
spelled phonetically with the Western alphabet for those of us who do not
read Arabic.


Well, my friend says there is not an explanation to that and it's because of
the same motive that there is McDonald and MacDonald, McQuinn and McQueen,
gasolene and gasoline, aluminium and aluminum and so on ;-)

But now all of a sudden the transliteration has become QU'RAN. In my
view, this is not nearly as straightforward as KORAN. Why the QU instead
of the simpler and unambiguous K? And what's the deal with the
apostrophe?


Again no apparent reason: just the same motive why Peking became Beijing,
Mao Tse-dun became Mao Ze-dong, Teng Hsiao-ping became
Deng Xiao-ping, Bombay became Mumbay, Birmania became
Burma, Rumania became Romania, Cambodja became Campuchea,
Alma Ata became Almaty, Gruzia became Georgia...
I suppose he wants to say there is not a linguistic reason for that.

(my note: the apostrophe I believe is for a "dead" "h" between U and R,
something like quHran, the H been almost silent. Probably that way it's
nearer to the real pronunciation as Arabs pronounce it).



So as to go back on the topic of coins, why are some unit coins of Arabic
countries called RIALS while others are called RIYALS? Seems to me those
two spellings represent identical sounds.


Well, here my friends says that it only "seems" because in spoken language
there is a difference between the two:
rial is [ri-al], while riyal is [ri-yal].

He also says that there is a more appropriate ng for such questions with
posters who are much more knowledgeable than him (he even used the
expression "geniuses" :-)), that's sci.lang.


--
E' mai possibile, oh porco di un cane, che le avventure
in codesto reame debban risolversi tutte con grandi
puttane! F.d.A

Coins, travels and mo http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/golanule/my_photos
http://gogu.enosi.org/index.html
http://www.romclub.4t.com/rabin.html

James




  #9  
Old February 25th 05, 11:52 PM
James Higby
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"gogu" wrote in message
...
I could help you James if it has something to do with Hungarian or with
linguistics in general, though in a limited degree...
Even if I can't help you I have a good friend who is quite knowledgeable
in
the sector.



OK, I'll start with a simple one.When I was in high school I learned that
the Islamic holy book was the KORAN, spelled thus. I knew it wasn't
really spelled that way, as it is an Arabic word, written in Arabic, but
spelled phonetically with the Western alphabet for those of us who do not
read Arabic.


Well, my friend says there is not an explanation to that and it's because
of
the same motive that there is McDonald and MacDonald, McQuinn and McQueen,
gasolene and gasoline, aluminium and aluminum and so on ;-)


I am not talking about issues that go back perhaps millennia, but recent
arbitrary decisions by Americans writing for consumption by Americans and
making things less clear as opposed to more clear.

But now all of a sudden the transliteration has become QU'RAN. In my
view, this is not nearly as straightforward as KORAN. Why the QU instead
of the simpler and unambiguous K? And what's the deal with the
apostrophe?


Again no apparent reason: just the same motive why Peking became Beijing,
Mao Tse-dun became Mao Ze-dong, Teng Hsiao-ping became
Deng Xiao-ping, Bombay became Mumbay, Birmania became
Burma, Rumania became Romania, Cambodja became Campuchea,
Alma Ata became Almaty, Gruzia became Georgia...
I suppose he wants to say there is not a linguistic reason for that.


I always told my students that the change in the Chinese transliterations
was due to increased knowledge of China after the Nixon years. For the
first time many cartographers became aware that their printed geographical
names were lacking in accuracy.

(my note: the apostrophe I believe is for a "dead" "h" between U and R,
something like quHran, the H been almost silent. Probably that way it's
nearer to the real pronunciation as Arabs pronounce it).


That certainly sounds plausible. The problem is, no one has ever given that
explanation before. You're a pioneer, gogu!

So as to go back on the topic of coins, why are some unit coins of Arabic
countries called RIALS while others are called RIYALS? Seems to me those
two spellings represent identical sounds.


Well, here my friends says that it only "seems" because in spoken language
there is a difference between the two:
rial is [ri-al], while riyal is [ri-yal].


That gets into the topic of phonemes, and I doubt that the people at Krause
have any notion of what that's all about, nor do 99.9% of their users.

He also says that there is a more appropriate ng for such questions with
posters who are much more knowledgeable than him (he even used the
expression "geniuses" :-)), that's sci.lang.


Thanks, I'll check that out. And thanks for taking the time to ask your
friend and summarize your conversation here on rcc.

James


  #10  
Old February 26th 05, 03:53 AM
TheDimeMan
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Mike...My thanks to you and all the others. I got the medal about 40 years
ago from an antique dealer who would go back every summer from Florida to
Vienna. So how it was put with a box of duplicate coins and not seen the
light of day since. I would still like to know who Muller was.

Thanks

TheDimeMan


"Mike Marotta" wrote in message
oups.com...
Pretty good translation, there, Dime Man! Was that from Babblefish, or
are you ...

KELCZ GYULAK
Kelcz family name, first name Gyulak


First name Gyula = Julius. The k shows something grammatical.
Hungarian is highly inflected: adessive, inessive, progressive,
regressive, as well as the more common nominative, genitive, dative,
accusative, vocative, and ablative known from Latin, Greek, Russian,
etc. My guess is "From Julius Kelcz" but "To Julius Kelcz" (and the
happy bride, of course) is also possible; see below.

SZERENCSES

Happy (lucky, fortunate)

NASZNAPJUK ?

NASZ = Wedding
NAP = day
juk (something grammatical? on, to, for ...)

KEDVES = Dear, etc.
EMLEKERE = medal, medallion (shares roots with "memory" words, but
means medal or medallion)

BUDAPESTEN
~en = In Budapest

AJANLJA MULLER JOZSEF
Presented by Joseph Muller, perhaps, unless you know that he was the
engraver.

(But can you PRONOUNCE it?? Szernecses would be transliterated into
American as Sair-nech-esh or perhaps serneh-chesh... Reminding me of
the GREEN ACRES where Lisa goes to college and the professor writes
PSYCHE on the blackboard and Lisa says "p-shee-shee"...)

Szervusz,
Marotta Mihaly



 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
John F. Kennedy 35th President Medal Starshyne Coins 2 October 16th 04 04:36 PM
FA: Deeds of Valor Book on Medal of Honor Winners, c. 1906 fishnet531 General 0 June 19th 04 04:30 PM
Contest! Pony Express Medal, Contest! Prize! Dale Hallmark Coins 18 March 16th 04 06:22 PM
Military (type) medal ribbon & suspension ring Quantity needed oly2059 Coins 0 January 31st 04 02:37 PM
US Mint 2003 National Wildlife Refuge System Centennial Medal Art O'Connell Coins 0 August 19th 03 06:49 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 11:33 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 CollectingBanter.
The comments are property of their posters.