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#41
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"Bluesea" wrote in message ...
"KCat" wrote in message m... "Bluesea" wrote As to the angle, you said that you use a different angle when using a fp than when you use a bp. The angle at which I hold a writing instrument doesn't change depending on the instrument whether it be a fp, bp, or pencil. Being nearly vertical, an angle of 85 degrees seems rather extreme anyway. I think it was intended to sound extreme. my angle of attack is definitely different with FPs than with pencils or bps. I think, in my case, I feel that at a higher angle, the pressure to apply pencil/bp to paper is easier accomplished without straining the hand too much. And with a pencil especially - a lower angle such as that used by most of the FP users I've seen would be awkward. I define "most" as the angle on Richard Binder's forms for customizing pens. You may be correct about his intention, but then I wouldn't know what his point might have been. By now, I don't really care. No one complains about my handwriting so I was merely questioning a difference that he brought up because I thought it must have been a significant factor or there wouldn't have been a reason for him to mention it. Also, he stated, "...every fp user writes with a similar angle than the one I use...." If that was accurate, Richard's questionnaire wouldn't provide three angle options (item #2) as does the Nakaya site: http://www.nakaya.org/ekarte.html. My angle is slightly higher than normal, about 63 degrees instead of 60, which may or may not account for my not having to change according to my writing instrument shrug. All the best. Please, read my first post: First, the "complaints" are in quotation marks, so it is not that those people refuse to read my notes or anything like that. Second, I said in that post that without seeing my notes it is impossible to judge, although that wasn't my intention when I started this thread. What I wanted to know is exactly what is written in that post: Has anyone had similar experiences??. As for the different angles: I said "similar". How many times has someone new to fps asked in this group about how to use a fp properly? How many times has he/she been advised to use a different angle? And that's all Juan |
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#42
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Douglas Wolfe wrote:
...some of the same problems that I have been struggling with. The "M", "N" and "U" are not fully rounded. I practiced making arches rather than mountains (/\/\/\/\/\)... Now I make a conscious effort to slow down.... I agree. Whenever I slow down and make my letters more rounded I do much better. I used to be that annoying kid you all hate in 10th grade whose handwriting was put up on the overhead projectors to show how you "should" write. I don't write like that anymore, but if I really slow down a lot and concentrate to make my letters VERY rounded and focus on keeping my slant continuously at the same angle, I can bring back a slightly sloppy variation of my old handwriting. Nancy |
#43
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By the way, I'd still like to know the answer to the question I asked morten. I'd like to know more about the new method of teaching left-handed people to write that he mentioned. Hey David: You're on to the correct method. It has partly to do with the positioning of the paper. Here's a photo. http://www.rkwest.com/left/leftwrite.shtml Turning the paper 30 degrees right (from top) should induce an immediate improvement in script by increasing the size of loops. However, this 30 year old leftie brain compensates by slanting drastically to the left, so the beneficial efforts of the new paper angle are soon eliminated. Here's where the headache inducing re-training starts. If your writing starts to angle left, then you must slow down, and FORCE your hand to angle to the right. If you're like me, you'll see a radical change to your script. It makes my script look instantly like that of a write hander. BUT, to make this change permanent, you'll need lots of training. Whereas leftie kids taught with this method get it quickly, and with permanent benefit. As for me, I tend to revert back to the old style, and the bad handwriting, cause this dog is either to old to learn new tricks, or too lazy to invest days of practice. So, while our generation may be hooped, so to speak, this simple training method holds promise to millions of right brained kids. |
#44
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morten wrote:
You're on to the correct method. It has partly to do with the positioning of the paper. Here's a photo. http://www.rkwest.com/left/leftwrite.shtml Turning the paper 30 degrees right (from top) should induce an immediate improvement in script by increasing the size of loops. However, this 30 year old leftie brain compensates by slanting drastically to the left, so the beneficial efforts of the new paper angle are soon eliminated. To my mind this is still better than hooking your hand way around and smearing the writing, it's faster, too. Here's where the headache inducing re-training starts. If your writing starts to angle left, then you must slow down, and FORCE your hand to angle to the right. If you're like me, you'll see a radical change to your script. It makes my script look instantly like that of a write hander. BUT, to make this change permanent, you'll need lots of training. Whereas leftie kids taught with this method get it quickly, and with permanent benefit. I'll try to practice sloping the letters to the right without changing hand position and see what happens. As for me, I tend to revert back to the old style, and the bad handwriting, cause this dog is either to old to learn new tricks, or too lazy to invest days of practice. So, while our generation may be hooped, so to speak, this simple training method holds promise to millions of right brained kids. I hear handwriting isn't really taught to any kids in many schools these days. It would be ironic if we wound up with a large number of specially trained left handers with better handwriting than most right handed people. -- David W. Drake |
#45
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"Curtis L. Russell" But I find that anything but a fine point does make my handwriting less legible than a ballpoint, at least in most cases. It will close some letters a bit more as the main fault. I agree - someone else said they felt they wrote better with a fine nib. I do not. I love them, but my writing suffers when I use them. I do disagree about using a calligraphy pen, unless the purppose is to use a calligraphy pen at all times. I don't really know what you mean here. Are you saying that it isn't possible to learn better handwriting by using the italic style unless you use a calligraphy pen? My point, and I still think it valid, is that the same strokes, the same angle and internal spaces of letters used in the Italic hand, can be used with a ball-tipped nib and have the effect of neater handwriting. Not that "calligraphy" can be done this way, but simply establishing better form overall can. I say this because I have seen that the way I form my letters with any pen or pencil has been greatly influenced by my calligraphy practice. I do practice with an edged nib. But eventually that practice translates to healthy writing habits that can improve your hand regardless of instrument used. This is actually the entire basis of Getty's and Dubay's "Write Now" which is one of the most complimented and seemingly successful method of improving your handwriting. There are others of course. characters with a ballpoint pen. Just my opinion, but I would practice with what I'm going to write with later. well - using your analogy - one should not practice hocky in the off-season on in-line skates. But I believe that these were originally designed for that very purpose. to achieve "calligraphic" forms, you are right. heh... or take it a step further.. remember the "Karate Kid" flicks? The master made the kid perform certain tasks that seemed on the outset to have nothing to do with Karate but then later those tasks could be seen in the actual implementation of the art. now that I've restated what I meant at least 3 times (happy, shel?) I hope it makes more sense and you can acknowledge that while it is just my opinion, it is one built on multiple methods of training in many disciplines. And may even be useful. :-) kcat the Verbose |
#46
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"Bluesea" wrote in message because I thought it must have been a significant factor or there wouldn't have been a reason for him to mention it. well - we're only violently agreeing basically - I'm just doing what I usually do - equivocating. :P Also, he stated, "...every fp user writes with a similar angle than the one I use...." If that was accurate, Richard's questionnaire wouldn't provide three angle options (item #2) as does the Nakaya site: Absolutely! http://www.nakaya.org/ekarte.html. My angle is slightly higher than normal, about 63 degrees instead of 60, which may or may not account for my not having to change according to my writing instrument shrug. And that's all I was reacting to - if you are going to assert that the angle doesn't change based on the instrument used, it should be clear to others that this is a YMMV statement and not an absolute. We get all wrapped around the axle (self-included) in how we read what is written vs. what is meant, I just like to throw qualifiers into the mix to make sure people don't feel that they are doing something "wrong" in using an FP simply because they use it differently than I do. |
#47
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What I wanted to know is exactly what is written in that post: Has
anyone had similar experiences??. yes and no. I used only F and EF nibs for a long time and I had complaints (no quotes) about how small my handwriting was. I did not change my letter forms overall, they just became very small. I'm also very cheap and doing this saved paper (and postage) with my long, boring letters. To my eye, though the letters were small, they were equally legible (relative to pre-EF nib use.) Others disagreed. :-) I use edged nibs a lot and especially fine and medium stubs which I love. They force me to "open up" my letters and it might be worth consideration to try this as has been suggested in some form or fashion in several responses to your post. Ya gotta know by now that if you ask a bunch of self-appointed experts (KCat included) a seemingly simple and straightforward question such as "has this happened to you" you are going to get a ton of responses ranging from "nope" to lengthy dissertations. :-) |
#48
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On Fri, 07 May 2004 19:28:28 GMT, "KCat" wrote:
well - using your analogy - one should not practice hocky in the off-season on in-line skates. Hardly the same. One can assume that almost anywhere you can write with a calligraphy pen, you can write with the pen you intend to use. You use in-line skates for hockey and cross country skiing for bicycle racing because in the that season it isn't as convenient to skate on ice skates or ride a bicycle (at least in a manner that trains for racing). I still have the opinon that if you want to improve your handwriting using a particular pen, then practice with that pen. Simply moving from a medium to a wide nib changes my handwriting legibility. Curtis L. Russell Odenton, MD (USA) Just someone on two wheels... |
#49
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KCat wrote:
"Curtis L. Russell" SNIP I do disagree about using a calligraphy pen, unless the purppose is to use a calligraphy pen at all times. I don't really know what you mean here. Are you saying that it isn't possible to learn better handwriting by using the italic style unless you use a calligraphy pen? My point, and I still think it valid, is that the same strokes, the same angle and internal spaces of letters used in the Italic hand, can be used with a ball-tipped nib and have the effect of neater handwriting. Not that "calligraphy" can be done this way, but simply establishing better form overall can. I say this because I have seen that the way I form my letters with any pen or pencil has been greatly influenced by my calligraphy practice. I do practice with an edged nib. But eventually that practice translates to healthy writing habits that can improve your hand regardless of instrument used. This is actually the entire basis of Getty's and Dubay's "Write Now" which is one of the most complimented and seemingly successful method of improving your handwriting. There are others of course. characters with a ballpoint pen. Just my opinion, but I would practice with what I'm going to write with later. SNIP I think I started with the advice to use a straight-cut nib, and my reason was the one Kcat give. You certainly can use italic letter forms with any writing instrument, but the hand is designed for a straight-cut nib and, importantly, that sort of nib actually guides your handwriting towards the right shapes. It is *easier* to learn with a calligraphy nib, and then transfer the learning to whatever you write with normally (stub, EF, BP or #2 pencil). And as such nibs come cheap (sorry, for US readers "offering very good value at a more modest price point"), it gives the enquirer a chance to try out a new nib style, too. But I wouldn't want to get into a War of Religion on this -- it was just advice in a specific situation. And the real enemy of legibility is failing to make the maximum differentiation between letters. Hands that look very neat at first glance can be quite unreadable, because every second letter is a circle, or a pair of up and down lines. BTW, on legibility with a given point size: I need a fine point, but I also find my handwriting gets larger with a broader point, doubtless as I try to preserve legibility. Best Michael |
#50
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"Curtis L. Russell" wrote in message
... On Fri, 07 May 2004 19:28:28 GMT, "KCat" wrote: well - using your analogy - one should not practice hocky in the off-season on in-line skates. Hardly the same. One can assume that almost anywhere you can write with a calligraphy pen, you can write with the pen you intend to use. You use in-line skates for hockey and cross country skiing for bicycle racing because in the that season it isn't as convenient to skate on ice skates or ride a bicycle (at least in a manner that trains for racing). so you're saying that in-line skates have nothing to do with the same skills used in ice hockey? I dunno - I'm in TX where we have a very good team but I doubt many of them are Texans. either way you're missing my point. That the italic hand can be written *without* the use of the edged nib and thereby improve one's writing. I am not suggesting anyone pick up a calligraphy pen to improve their handwriting. In fact, my first statement was just the opposite - that it isn't necessary to do so. Therefore - yes, using the same pen you intend to use in all other situations (say you have only one writing instrument) would be used in the same *manner* as one would use an edged nib. you are training your hand, not the pen. I still have the opinon that if you want to improve your handwriting using a particular pen, then practice with that pen. Simply moving from a medium to a wide nib changes my handwriting legibility. I would ask - have you ever practiced Calligraphy? And if not, then you might read Mr. Pickering's approach to practical italic handwriting as well as look into the Getty/Dubay book. otherwise, I'm fine with agreeing to disagree. And I'll continue to disagree for much longer than the 25 years I've been using edged pens that have influenced my handwriting in a positive way. :-) to each his own and all that rot. k |
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