Artgallery Redux

On Sat, 19 Jul 2003 23:44:54 +0900, "John Yamamoto-Wilson"
declared:

my-wings wrote:

I'm thinking that if you could read the words at the bottom of the spine,
they would say something like "Time Life American Classics Series."

I think I've got it. The first word begins with "Inter..." and the last word
begins with "Lib..." That would make it the "International Collectors
Library" (NYC) and, sure enough, among the half-dozen copies being offered
for a pittance on ABE is the description "Red boards with gold lettering and
decoration".

The question is, whether he can be copped for it. I suspect that claiming
that it is "very valuable" and "highly collectible" isn't specific enough to
constitute fraud.

'fraid it isn't john. he's really said a lot of nothing in his
description, which isn't all that much different than others who are
actually selling something.


robert

"I've been long, a long way from here
Put on a poncho, played for mosquitos,
And drank til I was thirsty again
We went searching through thrift store jungles
Found Geronimo's rifle, Marilyn's shampoo
And Benny Goodman's corset and pen"

MindElec wrote:
On Sat, 19 Jul 2003 22:42:19 GMT, David Bilek
declared:

"John Yamamoto-Wilson" wrote:
Bob Finnan wrote:

I wonder if the bidder is another one of his shill accounts?

I don't think so. The bidder has feedback dating back two and a half years
from various buyers. Looks like he's got a live one here!

Is it a breach of etiquette to e-mail bidders to let them know they're
making a grave error? Assuming you aren't involved in the auction in
any way.


it's a breach of ebays terms on auction interference and can get your
account suspended if it's reported.


Urk. Thanks, never mind then.

-David

Giltedge04 wrote:

I follow the works of a number of
artists and the majority of those listed are fakes or copies but they
still
sell for substantial sums.

Do they sell for amounts comparable to what the real thing would fetch? When
people think they are getting something worth thousands for a few hundred
dollars, usually they are being ripped off.

Have any of the buyers indicated (through feedback) that they tumbled once
they received the item?

--
John
http://rarebooksinjapan.com

On Sat, 19 Jul 2003 23:34:40 GMT, David Bilek
declared:

MindElec wrote:
On Sat, 19 Jul 2003 22:42:19 GMT, David Bilek
declared:

"John Yamamoto-Wilson" wrote:
Bob Finnan wrote:

I wonder if the bidder is another one of his shill accounts?

I don't think so. The bidder has feedback dating back two and a half years
from various buyers. Looks like he's got a live one here!

Is it a breach of etiquette to e-mail bidders to let them know they're
making a grave error? Assuming you aren't involved in the auction in
any way.


it's a breach of ebays terms on auction interference and can get your
account suspended if it's reported.


Urk. Thanks, never mind then.


no prob, what you wanted to do is admirable.


robert

"I've been long, a long way from here
Put on a poncho, played for mosquitos,
And drank til I was thirsty again
We went searching through thrift store jungles
Found Geronimo's rifle, Marilyn's shampoo
And Benny Goodman's corset and pen"

"John Yamamoto-Wilson" wrote in message
...
Giltedge04 wrote:

I follow the works of a number of
artists and the majority of those listed are fakes or copies but they
still
sell for substantial sums.

Do they sell for amounts comparable to what the real thing would fetch?
When
people think they are getting something worth thousands for a few hundred
dollars, usually they are being ripped off.


This is just my personal opinion, formed after watching too many episodes of
the Antiques Road Show, but I believe that the real deals are incredible
deals, like picking up a $2,000 lamp for $5 at a rummage sale because the
owners (and sometime the buyers) don't know what they have. But when the
buyer pays $500 for the item, hoping he guessed right about the (could it
be, Tiffany!?) mark, more likely than not, it's a fake.

When the seller knows he's got something really good, he prices it that way.
When the seller doesn't know he has something valuable, he prices it low.
But those prices that are high, but would be a great bargain if only the
item were the rare and valuable thing the buyer hopes it is...those are a
big red flag, waved by cynical sellers to incite greedy buyers.

I'm guessing the same thing applies to eBay books, with the except that a
really great deal priced too low will probably be bid up closer to where it
belongs.

Alice

On Sun, 20 Jul 2003 04:07:20 GMT, "my-wings"
declared:


"John Yamamoto-Wilson" wrote in message
...
Giltedge04 wrote:

I follow the works of a number of
artists and the majority of those listed are fakes or copies but they
still
sell for substantial sums.

Do they sell for amounts comparable to what the real thing would fetch?
When
people think they are getting something worth thousands for a few hundred
dollars, usually they are being ripped off.


This is just my personal opinion, formed after watching too many episodes of
the Antiques Road Show, but I believe that the real deals are incredible
deals, like picking up a $2,000 lamp for $5 at a rummage sale because the
owners (and sometime the buyers) don't know what they have. But when the
buyer pays $500 for the item, hoping he guessed right about the (could it
be, Tiffany!?) mark, more likely than not, it's a fake.

When the seller knows he's got something really good, he prices it that way.
When the seller doesn't know he has something valuable, he prices it low.
But those prices that are high, but would be a great bargain if only the
item were the rare and valuable thing the buyer hopes it is...those are a
big red flag, waved by cynical sellers to incite greedy buyers.

how about a "good deal" but higher than a "steal" price on something
authentic and properly described? would that also raise red flags?

I'm guessing the same thing applies to eBay books, with the except that a
really great deal priced too low will probably be bid up closer to where it
belongs.

maybe not, the bidding system doesn't always work and recently that
has been even more true. hence i never start something for less than
i'm willing to accept. in fact i've had to adjust my thinking to the
belief that it is easier to lower the price on a relist, than to be
disappointed at a low ending bid.


robert

"I've been long, a long way from here
Put on a poncho, played for mosquitos,
And drank til I was thirsty again
We went searching through thrift store jungles
Found Geronimo's rifle, Marilyn's shampoo
And Benny Goodman's corset and pen"

Giltedge04 wrote:

I follow the works of a number of
artists and the majority of those listed are fakes or copies but they
still
sell for substantial sums.

John Asked:

Do they sell for amounts comparable to what the real thing would fetch? When
people think they are getting something worth thousands for a few hundred
dollars, usually they are being ripped off.

Have any of the buyers indicated (through feedback) that they tumbled once
they received the item?

Usually such paintings sell for a lot less than a genuine work by the artist
which suggests that any expert s looking at the auctions immediately discounts
them as fakes. However the paintings still sell for substantially more than a
fake is worth which is why ebay is a good venue for sellers eager to rip people
off.

Clearly, as the winning bidders dont know they are buying fakes they think they
have got a good deal and I doubt they rush off to get an expert opinion and
that shock will be in store for them in years to come.

Here is a recent example:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...tegory=14 215

Note that after all the hype about the painting being genuine there is the
final get out clause:

" It does not come with any provenance so it is sold as circle of Myles Birkett
Foster"

Whilst I appreciate this thread is OT it demonstrates that similar situations
occur with art works on Ebay as do with books and anyway Myles Birket Foster
was a book illustrator as well as a watercolour artist!!

Stan

John Wrote

Just out of interest, how does the experienced buyer recognise that
something like this is a fake? Of course there's not going to be a single
simple answer, but an insight into just one facet of the mystery would be
fascinating.

...............................

Mainly by the syle, composition and detail in the work for a real MBF see:

http://www.tate.org.uk/servlet/ViewW...orkid=4508&sea
rchid=5052&tabview=image

He heightened all his works using very fine dots of white paint it is
relatively easy to spot a fake or copy. One Ebay buyer in the UK has spent
several thousand buying fakes of MBF and also a number of other very dubious
paintings where the sellers descriptions have been fraudulent.

Stan

But consider this--here's a fraudulent seller who was reported to ebay and
he's not been kicked out--are they going to do more than warn someone for
alerting a bidder to another dubious item?

--
TREVIAN BOOKS, ABAA
P.O. Box 433
Piermont, NY 10968
845-348-3474
"MindElec" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 19 Jul 2003 23:34:40 GMT, David Bilek
declared:

MindElec wrote:
On Sat, 19 Jul 2003 22:42:19 GMT, David Bilek
declared:

"John Yamamoto-Wilson" wrote:
Bob Finnan wrote:

I wonder if the bidder is another one of his shill accounts?

I don't think so. The bidder has feedback dating back two and a half
years
from various buyers. Looks like he's got a live one here!

Is it a breach of etiquette to e-mail bidders to let them know they're
making a grave error? Assuming you aren't involved in the auction in
any way.


it's a breach of ebays terms on auction interference and can get your
account suspended if it's reported.


Urk. Thanks, never mind then.


no prob, what you wanted to do is admirable.


robert

"I've been long, a long way from here
Put on a poncho, played for mosquitos,
And drank til I was thirsty again
We went searching through thrift store jungles
Found Geronimo's rifle, Marilyn's shampoo
And Benny Goodman's corset and pen"

At http://www.artbusiness.com/collectors.html there's a collection of articles
on (along with much else) art sold on eBay for substantial sums, where the
descriptions have misrepresented the artwork in such a way as to suggest it
might have been painted by someone well-known. It gets a little repetitive, but
there's some interesting information in there. On the book-collecting front,
there's an article on how to tell the difference between a real and a facsimile
dust jacket. I don't pretend to have read all the articles on the site, but the
ones I have looked at are pretty interesting. As well as the dust jacket
article, there's one on "Problems with online bookseller Alibris" (as if we
needed to be told) at http://www.artbusiness.com/alibris.html.

Sandy

"Giltedge04" wrote in message
...
John Wrote

Just out of interest, how does the experienced buyer recognise that
something like this is a fake? Of course there's not going to be a single
simple answer, but an insight into just one facet of the mystery would be
fascinating.

..............................

Mainly by the syle, composition and detail in the work for a real MBF see:

http://www.tate.org.uk/servlet/ViewW...orkid=4508&sea
rchid=5052&tabview=image

He heightened all his works using very fine dots of white paint it is
relatively easy to spot a fake or copy. One Ebay buyer in the UK has spent
several thousand buying fakes of MBF and also a number of other very dubious
paintings where the sellers descriptions have been fraudulent.

Stan