Selling used book online- A Losing Proposition?!

Malcolm wrote:

Even for 1p books you'll make
£1.50 (approx) on shipping, and that's a good rate for a few minutes
work.

Then you haven't sold a 1p book. You've sold a £1.51 book with £1.50 hidden
costs. A small-scale scam - worth it if you're that way inclined and have
nothing better to do with your time, perhaps...

--
John
http://rarebooksinjapan.com

"Randy Burns" wrote:

"Htn963" wrote in message
. com...

I recall someone here mentioning they can get hardcovers for $1-$3
but can't profitably sell them for less than $10.00. Heck, if he was
doing it at home, then he *really* needs to cut down on his
overhead. I'd be happy to sell it for $5.

That might have been me, but my point was not that you couldn't make a
profit but that the small profit wasn't worthwhile. Here's why: a
hardcover typically costs $2 (sometimes less, sometimes more) and you have
some costs of time and energy going to sales to buy them,

You can combine that with other errants that you would already do. I
won't presume to judge how *your* time is worth to you, but I've always liked
to shop and browse for books, long before I started selling, so it's always
more fun to me than work.

you also have
advertising costs and can typically pay the selling service $1-2 (20% on
Alibris is $2).

Well, doesn't Alibris advertise for you anyway? And, of course, the $2
fee only applies *if* you charge $10.00 to begin with.

I also mail normal sized hardcovers in boxes, 70 cents,

That's not a bad rate for boxes; but I find heavy duty envelopes (assuming
you pack well) just as reliable, and less time consuming to deal with.

postage is usually media Mail,

Which is reimbursed by Alibris, or paid by the buyer.

but the point here is that your actually
costs of selling any odd book can run 3-4-5 dollars and yet you are happy to
sell yours for $5 while sitting at home. How much do you make per hour of
your time?

Well, let's see...a typical half.com transaction of mine :

Buyer's Price/ $5.00 + Shipping Credit/$2.33 = $7.33

Cost: book/$1.00 + Media Mail (in most cases)/$1.84 + Clasp Envelope and
a piece of bubble wrapping/(approx. .35) + Half.com 15% transaction fee: .75c
= $ 3.94

Thus, profit is $7.33 - 3.94 = 3.39.

Yep, not bad at all for 10 minutes work at most , a few minutes to
evaluate and buy the book from my local source, a few minutes to wrap and send
them off.

The key to doing business my way and the way of most out-of-print
booksellers is selectivity in buying.

I usually buy what I am personally interested in; if it doesn't sell, I'll
just keep it to read.

I actually prefer to give away books
that I feel I cannot legitmately price at 10 or up and hope to sell.

Sure, that's commendable, but I'd make sure the people you're unloading
your "cheap" books to are those who can and will make good use of them, i.e.
those that will actually appreciate them and read them or will take good care
of them for charitable purposes.

--
Ht

|Any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind; and therefore
never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.
--John Donne, "Devotions Upon Emergent Occasions"|

-Htn963" wrote in message
...

Well, let's see...a typical half.com transaction of mine :

Buyer's Price/ $5.00 + Shipping Credit/$2.33 = $7.33

Cost: book/$1.00 + Media Mail (in most cases)/$1.84 + Clasp
Envelope and
a piece of bubble wrapping/(approx. .35) + Half.com 15% transaction fee:
..75c
= $ 3.94

Thus, profit is $7.33 - 3.94 = 3.39.

Of course I forgot to mention that I bro-dart all my dustjackets, which
perhaps may only cost 45 cents but also take about ten minutes to do a
really good tight job with. Also I often pay two dollars or more for older
books, but sometimes less. I figure my average cost of hardcovers is
probably around $2.25 per, but admittedly my average price on trade
paperbacks rarely rises above 50 cents and I also sell most of those for
around 9-11 dollars.

The thing is you ignore items that are costs to a full time bookdealer--such
as maintaining a car, a computer, online connnection, insurance for stock,
etc which in most cases is going to add a dollar or two, thus bringing the
profit on your transaction down to maybe a dollar and a quarter.

Of course if you are not a full time dealer then it really comes down to how
you want to spend your time. I use to sell books by quoting to dealers in
order to raise funds to buy other books with. This is common practice and
now it is easier to just sell them on Amazon or Half.com. This is why if
you want to deal full time you need to get away from anything that sells for
less than $10 minimum or better yet around $20. Like most full time dealers
I know, my average sale is around $20.

Cheers, Randy

Randy Burns wrote:
-Htn963" wrote in message
...
...
The thing is you ignore items that are costs to a full time bookdealer--such
as maintaining a car, a computer, online connnection, insurance for stock,
etc which in most cases is going to add a dollar or two, thus bringing the
profit on your transaction down to maybe a dollar and a quarter.

Of course if you are not a full time dealer then it really comes down to how
you want to spend your time. ... This is why if
you want to deal full time you need to get away from anything that sells for
less than $10 minimum or better yet around $20. Like most full time dealers
I know, my average sale is around $20.


To give Stuart credit, his intent of the article was to identity some
of the overlooked costs of selling. Many dealers underestimate the
real costs because there are many small details that you don't notice
unless you carefully watch every penny that leaves your pocket.

For personal finances this is often called the "latte factor." Ask
someone to write down how much they spend in a typical day and they
will usually forget the coffee bought on the way to work and the
second one when they take a break later. If these are lattes from
a chain coffee shop this means about 4 or 5 dollars a day - or for
a 20 work day month 80 to 100 dollars unaccounted for in the budget.
Now add a few more small purchases every day/week and there can
be a few hundred dollars unaccounted for. I've often watched friends
with small businesses grab a few bucks out of the register (or pocket)
to send someone out for some small item - I've never seen them
actually put a note in the register to account for the expense.

----
For the argument about cost of selling - here are two scenarios:

If you (or your staff) list and process a five dollar book for an
on-line sale instead of another round of solitaire, then you have
the choice between zero return and a small return for the time
[as long as you cover the incremental costs of shipping an
extra book]. The small return increases your profits a little.

However, if the listing and processing the five dollar book delays
the listing of a desirable twenty-five dollar book or prevents
you from spending the time to acquire a fifty dollar book
then the sale of the five dollar book will hurt the bottom line
at the end of the month.

You have to look at what happens "with" and "without" - not just
assign a cost. Often in business you are picking the option
that minimizes your loss - to an outsider it looks like you
are doing something stupid. For five dollar books, a difference
could be spending time acquiring them or making the best of the
leftovers after picking out the good stuff from an bulk purchase.


Brian

Brian wrote:

To give Stuart credit, his intent of the article was to identity some
of the overlooked costs of selling. Many dealers underestimate the
real costs because there are many small details that you don't notice
unless you carefully watch every penny that leaves your pocket.

True. But, OTOH, many dealers would do well to watch their overheads and
cut down on needless frills. A good book in decent condition delivered
promptly is 99.9% of what the buyers want, after all.

For the argument about cost of selling - here are two scenarios:

If you (or your staff) list and process a five dollar book for an
on-line sale instead of another round of solitaire, then you have
the choice between zero return and a small return for the time
[as long as you cover the incremental costs of shipping an
extra book]. The small return increases your profits a little.

As I have already explained in my previous posts to Randy Burns, my profit
is decent for a $5.00 sale. (Bue, hey, I'm just as happy to sell it for much
more if the market allows it.) If it isn't for you, then I can give you some
tips to cut down on your overhead.

However, if the listing and processing the five dollar book delays
the listing of a desirable twenty-five dollar book or prevents
you from spending the time to acquire a fifty dollar book
then the sale of the five dollar book will hurt the bottom line
at the end of the month.

You have to look at what happens "with" and "without" - not just
assign a cost. Often in business you are picking the option
that minimizes your loss - to an outsider it looks like you
are doing something stupid. For five dollar books, a difference
could be spending time acquiring them or making the best of the
leftovers after picking out the good stuff from an bulk purchase.

But look at it the other way: highly priced books (whether justified or
not) usually takes much longer to sell thus tying up your inventory and
upkeeping; in the time that it takes you to sell one $25.00 book, you might
have sold 5 or more $5.00 ones and gain a few more satisfied customers who may
do repeat business for higher priced books or refer you to others.

But again, both you and I are just speculating in general; how to outlay
costs and set prices is different for each seller and each has to decide for
him/herself what it would take to satisfy him and his goals.


--
Ht

|Any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind; and therefore
never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.
--John Donne, "Devotions Upon Emergent Occasions"|

"John Yamamoto-Wilson" wrote:

Ht wrote:

I'm not sure what you are implying.

I suppose I'm implying that Barter Books couldn't care less what bottom-end
sellers do, that they don't consider them competition in the first place,

Hmm, let's see: they're in England, where as we all know, most of the
paperbacks were recently still made with cheap acidic paper that yellowed
within a year or two, and their catalog is slim on science fiction. You're
right, they are no competition for me *here*.

and that the idea that the article was written from the point of view of not
being able to "stand the competition" is tosh.

Well, what do you think of the surmise that it might be written to
justify inflated costs and prices? Though they did mention that they have
"lower overheads" than most city stores.

Have you read the article thoroughly?

Give me a hint; what is it you think I might have missed?

It seemed to be targeted mainly at the average joe's selling at Amazon and
the like. on the cheap. Forex:

"If you put 'Charles Dickens' into the booksearch search engines, lowest price
upwards, the first 19 entries cost one penny. Only at the 166th entry does the
price finally reach $1."

and...

"Having followed BookFinder's 'Insider' for some time, it has finally dawned on
me that the vast majority are not real book dealers - they do not understand
bookselling and, more importantly, they do not understand business and probably
never will. What it shows is that any fool can become a book dealer, but
relatively few understand the business. "

snip

But, if they [high-end dealers]take such a positive attitude towards someone
who might actually sell material similar to the material they deal in,

Because they know that you are likely to sell them for more and not less
than they do and thus won't pose any competition?

why
on earth would they be bothered about people who sell pulp paperbacks for a
dollar or two,

Well, I also sell high-end trade paperbacks and an occasional collectible
too, thanks very much.

whose range of stock is probably never going to overlap with
theirs?

Never say never.

Why do you imagine that, in spelling out the economics of selling
books for peanuts, he's even remotely considering that such trading
constitutes "competiton"? The only possible way I can imagine bottom-end
online sellers ever impinging on his awareness is that, just once in a
while, they might be overlooking something and selling for a song something
he could usefully add to his stock.

Or selling it to somebody else for a song and takes away one of his juicy
sales.

Even that probably doesn't happen all
that often, given the ratio of browsing time to actually hitting on
something, not to mention time spent sending e-mails to clarify unclear
descriptions (which could alert the seller to the idea that the book might
be valuable, meaning it is liable to suddenly have "been sold" or else it
"cannot be located").

Er, who is doing what to whom?

And since, as you stated, you rarely deal in books under
three-figures,

I don't recall exactly what I said about three figures; the fun of getting a
book to someone who wants it applies whether it's a few dollars or a few
hundred dollars,

That we can agree on. Some of the most satisfying sales I have had were
not necessarily high-prices ones, but to people who tell me that they've been
looking for a particular book for a long time and were thrilled to get it for
such a good condition and a fair price.

and I definitely do both (if I gave a different impression
I was wrong), but being here in Japan, and mostly selling to people in the
West, there just aren't going to be all that many people who want me to ship
them a paperback copy of the latest John Grisham novel (or even a hardback),
so the stuff I trade that liable to be either pricey or hard to get or both.

Do you deal in Manga much?

you would be a good "competitor" to court, not some lowly junk
seller like myself

...who would be, as I began by saying, off his map altogether. He's not
frightened of your competition, Ht; he can't even begin to conceive that you
might be a competitor.

ROFL! Wait till he set up shop here then I'll give him something to worry
about.

I'm not saying the article is pure altruism - it's
all grist to the mill as far as maintaining Barter Books' profile is
concerned - but it's paranoia, not to mention hubris,

I never knew bookselling was so conducive to Shakesperean maladies.

on your part to
imagine that they could care less about "lowly junk sellers", except, as I
say, as a possible source of stock. High-end sellers might scorn you (bless
their hearts!), but they'd never consider you a threat.

Ok, whatever you say! You know best!

Or perhaps they just figured you could refer them to some hot
Japanese babes.

Well, now I think you may be getting close!

Remind me to ask you for a list before I go to Japan.


--
Ht

|Any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind; and therefore
never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.
--John Donne, "Devotions Upon Emergent Occasions"|

In article , Htn963 wrote:

Yep, not bad at all for 10 minutes work at most , a few minutes to
evaluate and buy the book from my local source, a few minutes to wrap and send
them off.

I wish I knew how to spend only 10 minutes a book selling
books. Could I get some advice here? [When I estimate the
total amount of time I have spent on the book business in
a year and divide by the number of books sold it come up
to at least a half hour per book for me. Anyone else care to
give some some estimates of time per book sold?]

--
Jonathan Grobe Books
Browse our inventory of thousands of used books at:
http://www.grobebooks.com

"Jonathan Grobe" wrote in message
...
In article , Htn963
wrote:
I wish I knew how to spend only 10 minutes a book selling
books. Could I get some advice here? [When I estimate the
total amount of time I have spent on the book business in
a year and divide by the number of books sold it come up
to at least a half hour per book for me.

There are certainly two distinct groups of buyers out there buying books.
Type one wants the cheapest copy for reading, while type two buys based on
the description of the book combined with some price consideration. Some
sellers are going to sell to only one of these two groups but also a few
sellers will sell to both. Obviously a bookseller who caters to the
collectors market is going to spend much more time then ten minutes per book
sold. I would guess my time is close to yours.

If I sell 100 books per month then that would be 50 hours per month using
your half hour criteria. This is probably correct for me if you exclude
buying books. I do spend about ten hours a week in the hunting and buying
of books, some weeks more. The rest of my time is divided between
describing the books, loading them online, corresponding with some of the
buyers and then wrapping and mailing. Pricing and describing books properly
takes more time then getting them ready for the mail.

Randy

Ht wrote:

Well, what do you think of the surmise that it might be written to
justify inflated costs and prices?

It depends what you call inflated. The books I bought from them were The
Gunpowder-Treason: With a Discourse of the Manner of its Discovery (1679)
and Reliquiae Sacrae Carolinae: Or the Works of that Great Monarch and
Glorious Martyr King Charles I (1650), bound together with The Portraicture
of his Sacred Majesty in his Solitudes and Sufferings (1649). The only copy
of the former I can find currently being offered online is priced at $715,
and there is a copy (of the first part only?) of the latter, priced at $400,
which is about what I paid for *both* books. If you can quote me a better
price, then, yes, I'll agree that their price was inflated.

Though they did mention that they have
"lower overheads" than most city stores.

I should think so. Apparently they are located in an old railway station in
the wilds of Northumbria.

It seemed to be targeted mainly at the average joe's selling at
Amazon and the like. on the cheap.

That's right. It's pointing out that that kind of selling is never really
going to sustain a profitable business. It's OK if people want to clear out
their attic and make a few quid on it, but if the stock has to be searched
for and bought then the time, effort and expense of that is going to
outweigh the money made on sales. Seems like fairly good, commonsensical
advice to me.

I hope not too many low-end sellers actually *take* his advice, though; they
may not be making any money, but they're performing a valuable public
service!

But, if they [high-end dealers]take such a positive attitude towards
someone
who might actually sell material similar to the material they deal in,

Because they know that you are likely to sell them for more and not less
than they do and thus won't pose any competition?

I doubt it. I sometimes make prices comparable to those on ABE, but
generally I'd expect to be selling for less.

Well, I also sell high-end trade paperbacks and an occasional collectible
too, thanks very much.

I think he'd advise you to focus on that, and phase out the low-end stuff.
Why resent him for giving sound advice?

The only possible way I can imagine bottom-end
online sellers ever impinging on his awareness is that, just once in a
while, they might be overlooking something and selling for a song
something
he could usefully add to his stock.

Or selling it to somebody else for a song and takes away one of his juicy
sales.

Don't get *too* jealous about those "juicy sales"; even high-end sellers not
infrequently end up bankrupt!

Even that probably doesn't happen all
that often, given the ratio of browsing time to actually hitting on
something, not to mention time spent sending e-mails to clarify unclear
descriptions (which could alert the seller to the idea that the book
might
be valuable, meaning it is liable to suddenly have "been sold" or else it
"cannot be located").

Er, who is doing what to whom?

Start asking a seller if a particular low-priced book has an certain issue
point or whatever that would make it considerably more valuable than the
price the seller is asking and instead of, "Yes, it does have that point.
Would you like to buy it?" you are liable to get, "I'm sorry, but this book
is no longer available." Keep your eye open and you'll see the same book
listed a few weeks later at a much higher price.

Do you deal in Manga much?

Not really. It seems most manga collectors in the West are happy to have
*any* Japanese edition of their favourite comic, in which case they can get
it from someone else. There are only a few people who care all that much
about whether it's a first edition.

He's not frightened of your competition, Ht;
he can't even begin to conceive that you
might be a competitor.

ROFL! Wait till he set up shop here then I'll give him something
to worry$B!!(Babout.

I look forward to the day!

--
John
http://rarebooksinjapan.com

I wrote:

$400...is about what I paid for *both* books.

Oops! Actually, I paid about 400 *pounds* (395, in fact, which is about
$630). That's with a 10% discount, so it would normally have been some $700.
The Gunpowder-Treason had a flaw (the last page - a kind of short postscript
to the text - was missing), but they were asking less for that *and* the
Reliquiae than what one other seller is asking just for the Gunpowder-Plot
(and I don't see that seller's price as wholly unreasonable, either).

Still, my promise stands. If you can quote me better prices for comparable
material I'll agree their prices are inflated!

--
John
http://rarebooksinjapan.com