Selling used book online- A Losing Proposition?!

Jonathan Grobe wrote:
In article , Brian wrote:


On factor that is not covered in this discussion is that a
fraction of your books will not sell in a reasonable amount
of time - these will eventually be sold below cost or be
given away.
Every book you sell has to cover a portion of these unsellable
books. In the beginning, this fraction will be significant.
As you get better at judging the market, you will reduce the
unprofitable fraction greatly.

Well you will probably reduce the proportion of your
new acquisitions which are unprofitable--I am not so sure
about total stock though. There are a great many dealers
(myself included) who tend not weed out this deadwood--
it might sell sometime!!--so the longer you are in business
the more deadwood you will have (if you don't weed).


Yes, the money paid to aquire stock is tied up (and possibly
never to be recovered). If you don't have a storage problem,
then it is worth holding onto the deadwood stock in case some
sells eventually. If storage is an issue, then the deadwood
is costing money to store or preventing you from getting
better stock.

BRian

Brian wrote in message ...
Malcolm wrote:
(Stacy Chung) wrote in message . com...

i did a little reseach on the sellers on half.com and found that on
...

In summary, experiment with selling books on amazon. It's very easy,
zero start up costs, more fun than you might think, and simple to make
profit forecasts. You'll soon find out if you can make it a full time
job, keep it going as part of a 'portfolio career' (my option), or
decide it's not for you. ...

On factor that is not covered in this discussion is that a
fraction of your books will not sell in a reasonable amount
of time - these will eventually be sold below cost or be
given away.
Amazon allows you to see how popular your books are as they have a
sales rank.
If you are REALLY keen you can try and relate sales rank to
sellability. The only caveat here is that the book MAY be drifting
out. So you can either check ratings every week or so to look for
drift (time consuming) or use your judgement of the market. It's a
good idea to try to specialise in areas that you know, then you can
buy booksthat you would buy or read yourself and unless yuou have very
ubnusual tastes you will have agood feel for what others with your
interests will buy.
Every book you sell has to cover a portion of these unsellable
books. In the beginning, this fraction will be significant.
I think this is overly pessimistic, I've some books which I thought
had no chance of selling and sold easily.
As you get better at judging the market, you will reduce the
unprofitable fraction greatly.

[Even the experienced dealer will get stuck
with unprofitable books due to changing markets. i.e. an uncommon
book gets reissued.
Yes one of my happiest surprises was selling copies of Wainwright I'd
bought years ago, for my own use, in a sale for £40 a go, but the
demand appears to has disappeared as they have just been republished.
New edition of a reference book is published.
This is tricky, especially with computing books. But this is where
good profit can be made. I have had some success with outdated
editions of computing books that you can pick up cheap at warehouses
for around £3 but
still sell at £20 (when, say, new at £40). Possibly kind lecturers
recommend
to students that older editions will still be suitable and/or new
editions have had trivial upgrades and/or savvy computer professional
know a bargain when they see one? You really need to know what you are
doing to get this kind of thing right. Bonus: you'll find some great
bargains for your own use.

The safest purchases to make are novels by classic authors (Dickens,
Shakesspeare...) & modern authors with some staying power (Bellow,
Amis...). You really have to buy very low and sell low to make a
reasonable profit here though, but £2-£5 should still be possible &
you get novels you want to read as well.

There are enough bargain outlets around to specialise & buy what you
like & still make a good profit. This makes it fun.

"Brian" wrote in message
...


Yes, the money paid to aquire stock is tied up (and possibly
never to be recovered). If you don't have a storage problem,
then it is worth holding onto the deadwood stock in case some
sells eventually. If storage is an issue, then the deadwood
is costing money to store or preventing you from getting
better stock.

BRian


Donating deadwood books to charity can at least give you
an income tax deduction on your business/personal taxes.
Just make sure you get a receipt stating the number of items,
and what the charity (thrift store) will sell them for.

A few years ago, I bought 36 boxes of books at auction for
about $150. I culled out what I wanted, and sold them.
I contacted a local charity, told them I had a large donation
of books, and they even picked them up. Later, I received
an accountant's letter in the mail, stating that the value of
the books was $2500, based on what they had sold them
for. It turns out that there were many "gay interest" items
that I had not recognized, and which they had a deep
market for. I was quite happy.

Kris

Donating deadwood books to charity can at least give you
an income tax deduction on your business/personal taxes.
Just make sure you get a receipt stating the number of items,
and what the charity (thrift store) will sell them for.

A few years ago, I bought 36 boxes of books at auction for
about $150. I culled out what I wanted, and sold them.
I contacted a local charity, told them I had a large donation
of books, and they even picked them up. Later, I received
an accountant's letter in the mail, stating that the value of
the books was $2500, based on what they had sold them
for. ...

Check with your tax advisor on the rules for donations
if you are donating large amounts. Over a certain amount,
you need an independant appraisal of the value - a letter
from the charity/non-profit is NOT valid.

Also, even if you are qualified to do appraisals, you
are not allowed to submit appraisals for you own items.
(see instructions for form 8283)

(last I checked, over 5000 dollars was the cutoff value
for a required appraisal (This is United States tax law))
You won't find out unless you are audited, but large
non-cash charitable deductions will be challenged if
you are audited. If you claimed five dollars a hardcover
book the IRS will ask you to prove that the thrift store
actually sells them for five dollars each.


One non-profit that used to give appraisals of my
donations informed me last year that their lawyer
told them not to issue appraisals anymore - now
they give a detailed description of the books, but no
value.


IRS publication 561 specifically describes an example
of a wholesaler selling books to anyone for $10,000
a case - if a buyer donates that case to a charity,
they cannot claim the "retail" price because
anyone can go to the wholesaler and buy a case for
$10,000. The IRS rules say that the fair market
value is $10,000, not the "retail" price.

They look at your aquisition cost for donations over $500.
If you bought a box of books for $150 at auction, the fair
market value (at that time and place) was $150. You will
have to prove to the IRS' satisfaction that the fair market
value of these books has increased since the auction.


In the case of Kris' donation, it should be accepted
because the books were actually sold at the claimed value
- it can be proven that it is not an inflated value.


In my case, the higher value books I donate are given
to a specialty library, so there is no sale to prove the value.
I keep individual donations under $500 so I don't have to
report my acquisition cost.

Brian

"Brian" wrote in message
...

Donating deadwood books to charity can at least give you
an income tax deduction on your business/personal taxes.
Just make sure you get a receipt stating the number of items,
and what the charity (thrift store) will sell them for.

A few years ago, I bought 36 boxes of books at auction for
about $150. I culled out what I wanted, and sold them.
I contacted a local charity, told them I had a large donation
of books, and they even picked them up. Later, I received
an accountant's letter in the mail, stating that the value of
the books was $2500, based on what they had sold them
for. ...

Check with your tax advisor on the rules for donations
if you are donating large amounts. Over a certain amount,
you need an independant appraisal of the value - a letter
from the charity/non-profit is NOT valid.

I did; my accountant *always* does my taxes.

The letter wasn't from the charity, but from their
accountant, detailing appraisals, what they had
actually sold the books for, etc. My accountant
said it was the best he'd ever seen, to prove
value.



(last I checked, over 5000 dollars was the cutoff value
for a required appraisal (This is United States tax law))
You won't find out unless you are audited, but large
non-cash charitable deductions will be challenged if
you are audited. If you claimed five dollars a hardcover
book the IRS will ask you to prove that the thrift store
actually sells them for five dollars each.


One non-profit that used to give appraisals of my
donations informed me last year that their lawyer
told them not to issue appraisals anymore - now
they give a detailed description of the books, but no
value.

I donate all the time, and our largest thrift store
chain has never done appraisals -- that'd be
quite silly.

What they do, is have you list the items you
are donating (15 books, color TV, etc) and
then they fill in their standard pricing.

They look at your aquisition cost for donations over $500.
If you bought a box of books for $150 at auction, the fair
market value (at that time and place) was $150. You will
have to prove to the IRS' satisfaction that the fair market
value of these books has increased since the auction.

In the case of Kris' donation, it should be accepted
because the books were actually sold at the claimed value
- it can be proven that it is not an inflated value.

I won't have any IRS problems. This happened in
1991.

In my case, the higher value books I donate are given
to a specialty library, so there is no sale to prove the value.
I keep individual donations under $500 so I don't have to
report my acquisition cost.

Brian

Very good. This is why I always tell *anyone*
who is "in business" to work with their accountant.
It's not that expensive to have your taxes done
once a year.

Problem is, many people refuse to believe that
they're "in business"....but that's another subject,
and not for this discussion.

Kris

Hello everyone,

An excellent discussion this has been. Here's the URL of a good artical
in the most recent newsletter of the Independent Online Booksellers
Association (IOBA) by Stuart Manley, owner of a large bookstore in the
U.K.. In it he discusses some of the issues mentioned in this thread.

http://www.ioba.org/newsletter/V12/I...lingB-8-03.php

Norm Clerman

Malcolm wrote:
(Stacy Chung) wrote in message . com...

hi,

i did a little reseach on the sellers on half.com and found that on
average it takes an inventory of approximately 1700 books to sell just
one book a day. Considering an average profit of $3 per book, one
would have to sell 45 books a day to make a living ($4000/month)
selling books on half.com. That would mean an inventory of 76,500
books, enough to fill a decent-sized warehouse. Has anyone here tried
to make a living selling used books online, and if so, what do you
think of my calculations?



I have around five hundred books on amazon.co.uk and have sold between
one and two a day on average (for the last 8 months). Your $3 is
pessimistic. I bought a textbook from a wholesaler for around £3
(including shipping) and sold it for £24 yesterday. I have picked up
textbooks from thrift shops even cheaper and have made an even larger
profit. As new novels are a dime a dozen at thrift shops (almost
literally :-) you will easily make at least $3 profit on amazon with
them. So the $3 should be a minimum, not an average. I reckon my
average is closer to $10. This takes very little effort and I use it,
basically, to fund my computing expenses, personal book purchases and
other small extravagances. I only spend an hour or two a day on
bookselling activities. I reckon someone could easily make online
bookselling a full time job paying the kind of wages you aspire to.
It's also a good way for collectors to 'churn' their collection and
gives an extra dimension to the joy of browsing in bookshops. For
instance, you may not want to add a book to your collection but would
like to read or browse through it. You now have great opportunities to
buy such a book and sell it easily when finished with it. Also,
wholesalers now have amazing selections online where you are likely to
find books you want for your personal collection. You can buy these
very cheaply, and sell the other books you buy. Ebay is a good option
if you want to shift books quickly, though the profit is likely to be
less than you would get on Amazon (though sometimes you can get a nice
surprise!) Indeed, buying books on ebay to sell on amazon is a good
route to go down.

In summary, experiment with selling books on amazon. It's very easy,
zero start up costs, more fun than you might think, and simple to make
profit forecasts. You'll soon find out if you can make it a full time
job, keep it going as part of a 'portfolio career' (my option), or
decide it's not for you. It's inspired me to start a web site devoted
to book selling, so if you want more info try www.321books.co.uk.

P.S. It's a good job for someone trying to make it as a writer. You
MAY sell the book you're writing in two years time, in the meanwhile
you can be selling several other books a day & making some money.
Great for morale, and not very taxing on the grey matter.

This is an interesting article, but I would question some of its
conclusions,
especially the one about $10 cost per unit sale.

A unit cost of $10 per sale is an upper limit if you employ sales
staff, rent extra space, employ accountants, and have large transport
costs. If you do not
have any the these you can afford to sell paperbacks at 1p and still
make a profit. Of course you should aim to find books that will sell
for more, but if you are faced with a paperback at a car boot sale you
may not know if it will go for 1p or £10. You should buy it whatever.
It takes a few minutes to buy it, list it on Amazon, and do the
packing when it sells. I don't include transport costs here as it is
assumed you will buy this kind of book with other, better selling
books and make no extra postal runs. Even for 1p books you'll make
£1.50 (approx) on shipping, and that's a good rate for a few minutes
work. (This assumes you don't rent space, don't employ sales staff,
....)

And it's no good listing higher as Stuart suggests, you have to go
with what the market dictates to make a sale.

Guess Stuart is trying to discourage the small seller who has no
significant set-up or continuing costs. Guess he can't stand the
competition.

Malcolm
www.321books.co.uk: free advice for the small seller

Hello everyone,

An excellent discussion this has been. Here's the URL of a good artical
in the most recent newsletter of the Independent Online Booksellers
Association (IOBA) by Stuart Manley, owner of a large bookstore in the
U.K.. In it he discusses some of the issues mentioned in this thread.

http://www.ioba.org/newsletter/V12/I...lingB-8-03.php

Norm Clerman

Malcolm wrote:
(Stacy Chung) wrote in message . com...

hi,

i did a little reseach on the sellers on half.com and found that on
average it takes an inventory of approximately 1700 books to sell just
one book a day. Considering an average profit of $3 per book, one
would have to sell 45 books a day to make a living ($4000/month)
selling books on half.com. That would mean an inventory of 76,500
books, enough to fill a decent-sized warehouse. Has anyone here tried
to make a living selling used books online, and if so, what do you
think of my calculations?



I have around five hundred books on amazon.co.uk and have sold between
one and two a day on average (for the last 8 months). Your $3 is
pessimistic. I bought a textbook from a wholesaler for around £3
(including shipping) and sold it for £24 yesterday. I have picked up
textbooks from thrift shops even cheaper and have made an even larger
profit. As new novels are a dime a dozen at thrift shops (almost
literally :-) you will easily make at least $3 profit on amazon with
them. So the $3 should be a minimum, not an average. I reckon my
average is closer to $10. This takes very little effort and I use it,
basically, to fund my computing expenses, personal book purchases and
other small extravagances. I only spend an hour or two a day on
bookselling activities. I reckon someone could easily make online
bookselling a full time job paying the kind of wages you aspire to.
It's also a good way for collectors to 'churn' their collection and
gives an extra dimension to the joy of browsing in bookshops. For
instance, you may not want to add a book to your collection but would
like to read or browse through it. You now have great opportunities to
buy such a book and sell it easily when finished with it. Also,
wholesalers now have amazing selections online where you are likely to
find books you want for your personal collection. You can buy these
very cheaply, and sell the other books you buy. Ebay is a good option
if you want to shift books quickly, though the profit is likely to be
less than you would get on Amazon (though sometimes you can get a nice
surprise!) Indeed, buying books on ebay to sell on amazon is a good
route to go down.

In summary, experiment with selling books on amazon. It's very easy,
zero start up costs, more fun than you might think, and simple to make
profit forecasts. You'll soon find out if you can make it a full time
job, keep it going as part of a 'portfolio career' (my option), or
decide it's not for you. It's inspired me to start a web site devoted
to book selling, so if you want more info try www.321books.co.uk.

P.S. It's a good job for someone trying to make it as a writer. You
MAY sell the book you're writing in two years time, in the meanwhile
you can be selling several other books a day & making some money.
Great for morale, and not very taxing on the grey matter.

(Malcolm) wrote in message . com...
This is an interesting article, but I would question some of its
conclusions,
especially the one about $10 cost per unit sale.

He also made this finding which I find hilarious:

"We are established book dealers with a seven-figure annual turnover
and, after careful research, we have come to the conclusion that
listing any single book under the $30 mark causes us to lose money in
real terms - the cost of the sale exceeds the genuine profit within
that sale."

He must be using vellum wrapping and sandalwood cases to ship his
books, even the Oprah mass paperbacks. Or perhaps he's overestimating
the importance of his own services to the reading community.

A unit cost of $10 per sale is an upper limit if you employ sales
staff, rent extra space, employ accountants, and have large transport
costs.

I recall someone here mentioning they can get hardcovers for $1-$3
but can't profitably sell them for less than $10.00. Heck, if he was
doing it at home, then he *really* needs to cut down on his
overhead. I'd be happy to sell it for $5.

If you do not
have any the these you can afford to sell paperbacks at 1p and still
make a profit. Of course you should aim to find books that will sell
for more, but if you are faced with a paperback at a car boot sale you
may not know if it will go for 1p or £10. You should buy it whatever.
It takes a few minutes to buy it, list it on Amazon, and do the
packing when it sells. I don't include transport costs here as it is
assumed you will buy this kind of book with other, better selling
books and make no extra postal runs. Even for 1p books you'll make
£1.50 (approx) on shipping, and that's a good rate for a few minutes
work. (This assumes you don't rent space, don't employ sales staff,
...)

Stuart doesn't seem to appreciate that Amazon, Half.com, and the
like significantly reduces transaction time and costs for sellers.

And it's no good listing higher as Stuart suggests, you have to go
with what the market dictates to make a sale.

Yep, though I think those Amazon "penny pricks" go too far -- not
only do they spoil it for many other honest merchants who would like
to make a modest profit, they reduce the value and real worth of the
books through this tacky marketing tactic -- rather like serving an
otherwise top-notch sirloin steak on a garbage can lid (line from
Cosby Show.)

Guess Stuart is trying to discourage the small seller who has no
significant set-up or continuing costs. Guess he can't stand the
competition.

Exactly.

Malcolm
www.321books.co.uk: free advice for the small seller

"Htn963" wrote in message
om...

I recall someone here mentioning they can get hardcovers for $1-$3
but can't profitably sell them for less than $10.00. Heck, if he was
doing it at home, then he *really* needs to cut down on his
overhead. I'd be happy to sell it for $5.

That might have been me, but my point was not that you couldn't make a
profit but that the small profit wasn't worthwhile. Here's why: a
hardcover typically costs $2 (sometimes less, sometimes more) and you have
some costs of time and energy going to sales to buy them, you also have
advertising costs and can typically pay the selling service $1-2 (20% on
Alibris is $2). I also mail normal sized hardcovers in boxes, 70 cents,
postage is usually media Mail, but the point here is that your actually
costs of selling any odd book can run 3-4-5 dollars and yet you are happy to
sell yours for $5 while sitting at home. How much do you make per hour of
your time?

So to compare my operation to the one in question, I can sell a book for $10
and up and feel like I make money on every one, apparently the shop has much
higher overhead. I can understand that but also I can follow different
rules.

The key to doing business my way and the way of most out-of-print
booksellers is selectivity in buying. I actually prefer to give away books
that I feel I cannot legitmately price at 10 or up and hope to sell.

Cheers, Randy

Guess Stuart is trying to discourage the small seller who has no
significant set-up or continuing costs. Guess he can't stand the
competition.

Exactly.

I don't think so. Htn963 says:

perhaps he's overestimating
the importance of his own services to the reading community.

but surely he is overestimating the extent to which sellers who deal at the
bottom end of the market impinge at all on the awareness of higher-end
dealers - except, from time to time, as a source of stock.

I've bought from Barter Books (where Stuart Manley works); as soon as they
knew I had a website they were falling over themselves to give me a delaer's
discount. I was saying, "No, no, I'm buying these books for my collection,
not to resell!" and they were saying...wait a minute, let me see if I've
still got their e-mail...yes, they were saying:

People have tried to get trade discount out of us with much
poorer credentials than yourself!

The point of trade discount is that it should be reciprocal. You
publish an accessible catalogue, therefore reciprocation is possible.
Therefore you qualify for trade discount. (The fact that it is for your
personal collection is not relevant.)

I don't think you could find a less paranoid reaction to a potential
competitor.

--
John
http://rarebooksinjapan.com