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#11
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Rockola 440 Gripper and Magazine Motor Blowing Fuses
On 1/18/2012 4:58 PM, robert wrote:
Thanks for the advice Rob. I called one of the ads in the classified section of Always Jukin', my wife's boss gave me a copy. (Thanks again, that was a great idea) Ironically, the the guy I called about purchasing two motors, suggested that I try a few things before spending the money for the motors. 1. Running the motors while disconnected from each of their respective gear mechanisms to see what would happen without a load. I tried it and it still blew the fuse. 2. Clean the motor out: So far I took the Gripper motor apart and it was filthy inside. I cleaned it out but need to do the same with the carousel motor. Once I do that I'll try it again and see what happens. I certainly appreciate your advice. But I would like to see if there is any way that I may be able to fix this first before having to purchase another set of motors. On one hand this is frustrating, but on the other, I am learning A LOT about the way these things work and it's really quite interesting Did you unplug both motors and see if the fuse blows without them? Did you try plugging in one motor at a time to see which one is blowing the fuse? It's possible but highly doubtful that both motors are bad... unless it was used as a parts machine and the good motors taken out and replaced with the bad ones. Besides, the two motors _never_ run at the same time so unless the cam switches are screwed up, only one motor is blowing the fuse at any given time. If both motors are trying to run at the same time you have some other issues. |
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#12
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Rockola 440 Gripper and Magazine Motor Blowing Fuses
Hi Tony,
I ran the machine for a couple of minutes with both motors disconnected and it did not blow a fuse. I connected the gripper motor that I had cleaned out previously and ran the machine, only to blow the fuse within a few seconds. I couldn't connect the carousel motor, because the brushes broke apart during disassembly The cam switches are aligned and from what I noticed, only one motor runs at a time. Robert On Jan 19, 8:21*am, Tony Miklos wrote: On 1/18/2012 4:58 PM, robert wrote: Thanks for the advice Rob. I called one of the ads in the classified section of Always Jukin', my wife's boss gave me a copy. *(Thanks again, that was a great idea) Ironically, the the guy I called about purchasing two motors, suggested that I try a few things before spending the money for the motors. 1. *Running the motors while disconnected from each of their respective gear mechanisms to see what would happen without a load. * * * I tried it and it still blew the fuse. 2. *Clean the motor out: * * * So far I took the Gripper motor apart and it was filthy inside. I cleaned it out but need to do the same with the carousel motor. Once I do that I'll try it again and see what happens. I certainly appreciate your advice. *But I would like to see if there is any way that I may be able to fix this first before having to purchase another set of motors. *On one hand this is frustrating, but on the other, I am learning A LOT about the way these things work and it's really quite interesting Did you unplug both motors and see if the fuse blows without them? *Did you try plugging in one motor at a time to see which one is blowing the fuse? *It's possible but highly doubtful that both motors are bad... unless it was used as a parts machine and the good motors taken out and replaced with the bad ones. *Besides, the two motors _never_ run at the same time so unless the cam switches are screwed up, only one motor is blowing the fuse at any given time. *If both motors are trying to run at the same time you have some other issues. |
#13
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Rockola 440 Gripper and Magazine Motor Blowing Fuses
Hi Pete,
I took the gripper motor apart, cleaned it out polished up the communicator and thought that would solve the problem but when I connected it and ran the machine it still blew a fuse The carousel motor is beyond my repair ability so I think I'm going to have to get a replacement anyway. I don't see the capacitors on these particular motors. I have a Rockola 483 that I plan on restoring (if I ever get this one done!) that does have the caps on the motor. The kicker is that these two motors are going to cost more than I paid for the machine lol. Robert On Jan 19, 5:10*am, g0pkh wrote: Hi Robert A while back I restored my first jukebox, A Rock-Ola 474 machine. I too had problems with both of these motors. I was really lucky and managed to find two brand new old stock armatures for them. And after a complete rebuild and regrease, they now run brilliantly. They are 28V DC Motors. I tested mine by connecting them to a Bench Variable Power Supply unit, and wound up the voltage slowly while monitoring the current. Mine were both taking in excess of 2A which is the limit of my PSU. By the time I got to 20V DC I found that after the rebuild the motors would run off load and consume in the area of 500mA, while at the full 28V. I didn't have a problem with shorted turns on mine. The problem I had was that the commutators (sections where the brushes connect the armature) had a deep groove worn in them, plus the grease in the gearboxes had congealed, and needed to be cleaned out completely, then fully regreased. Also with the armatures and brushes removed, you may like to check the suppression capacitors (tubular devices connected across the motors) for a short circuit. These capacitors are installed to reduce motor noise. Strangely the motors in my machine did not have these fitted. Hope this info helps Pete -- g0pkh |
#14
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Rockola 440 Gripper and Magazine Motor Blowing Fuses
robert wrote:
Hi Pete, I took the gripper motor apart, cleaned it out polished up the communicator and thought that would solve the problem but when I connected it and ran the machine it still blew a fuse The carousel motor is beyond my repair ability so I think I'm going to have to get a replacement anyway. I don't see the capacitors on these particular motors. I have a Rockola 483 that I plan on restoring (if I ever get this one done!) that does have the caps on the motor. The kicker is that these two motors are going to cost more than I paid for the machine lol. Before you replace the motors try running a thin flat blade between each commutator on the armature. I have had motors that have too much carbon jammed in between each commutator conductor leading to the appearance of a shorted motor. Do not use a blade like an Exacto, you need something thin and flat ended to scrape the bottom of the grove between each conductor. Polishing the faces of the commutator won't help that much. John :-#)# Robert On Jan 19, 5:10 am, g0pkh wrote: Hi Robert A while back I restored my first jukebox, A Rock-Ola 474 machine. I too had problems with both of these motors. I was really lucky and managed to find two brand new old stock armatures for them. And after a complete rebuild and regrease, they now run brilliantly. They are 28V DC Motors. I tested mine by connecting them to a Bench Variable Power Supply unit, and wound up the voltage slowly while monitoring the current. Mine were both taking in excess of 2A which is the limit of my PSU. By the time I got to 20V DC I found that after the rebuild the motors would run off load and consume in the area of 500mA, while at the full 28V. I didn't have a problem with shorted turns on mine. The problem I had was that the commutators (sections where the brushes connect the armature) had a deep groove worn in them, plus the grease in the gearboxes had congealed, and needed to be cleaned out completely, then fully regreased. Also with the armatures and brushes removed, you may like to check the suppression capacitors (tubular devices connected across the motors) for a short circuit. These capacitors are installed to reduce motor noise. Strangely the motors in my machine did not have these fitted. Hope this info helps Pete -- g0pkh -- (Please post followups or tech enquiries to the newsgroup) John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out." |
#15
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Rockola 440 Gripper and Magazine Motor Blowing Fuses
Hi John,
Okay I'll give it a shot and post back. Robert On Jan 19, 6:43*pm, John Robertson wrote: robert wrote: Hi Pete, I took the gripper motor apart, cleaned it out polished up the communicator and thought that would solve the problem but when I connected it and ran the machine it still blew a fuse *The carousel motor is beyond my repair ability so I think I'm going to have to get a replacement anyway. I don't see the capacitors on these particular motors. *I have a Rockola 483 that I plan on restoring (if I ever get this one done!) that does have the caps on the motor. The kicker is that these two motors are going to cost more than I paid for the machine *lol. Before you replace the motors try running a thin flat blade between each commutator on the armature. I have had motors that have too much carbon jammed in between each commutator conductor leading to the appearance of a shorted motor. Do not use a blade like an Exacto, you need something thin and flat ended to scrape the bottom of the grove between each conductor. Polishing the faces of the commutator won't help that much. John :-#)# Robert On Jan 19, 5:10 am, g0pkh wrote: Hi Robert A while back I restored my first jukebox, A Rock-Ola 474 machine. I too had problems with both of these motors. I was really lucky and managed to find two brand new old stock armatures for them. And after a complete rebuild and regrease, they now run brilliantly. They are 28V DC Motors. I tested mine by connecting them to a Bench Variable Power Supply unit, and wound up the voltage slowly while monitoring the current. Mine were both taking in excess of 2A which is the limit of my PSU. By the time I got to 20V DC I found that after the rebuild the motors would run off load and consume in the area of 500mA, while at the full 28V. I didn't have a problem with shorted turns on mine. The problem I had was that the commutators (sections where the brushes connect the armature) had a deep groove worn in them, plus the grease in the gearboxes had congealed, and needed to be cleaned out completely, then fully regreased. Also with the armatures and brushes removed, you may like to check the suppression capacitors (tubular devices connected across the motors) for a short circuit. These capacitors are installed to reduce motor noise. Strangely the motors in my machine did not have these fitted. Hope this info helps Pete -- g0pkh -- * * (Please post followups or tech enquiries to the newsgroup) * John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 * Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games) * * * * * * * * * * *www.flippers.com * * * *"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out." |
#16
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Quote:
If you do as John suggests. That may sort the armatures out. However you will still need two sets of brushes. You can buy them from a chap in Germany here. http://www.jukebox-world.de/ He does brush sets for most of these motors. Pete P.S Tell about paying more than what the machine is worth LOL That is the problem with restoring these girls. It seems likely that yours both had the motors replaced for duff before it was scrapped. Last edited by g0pkh : January 20th 12 at 09:15 AM. |
#17
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Rockola 440 Gripper and Magazine Motor Blowing Fuses
Hi Pete,
Thanks for the link. If cleaning between the communicator bars solves the issue of any shorts, will the motor still work with the worn brushes or will I have to replace them before I can test the motor? Robert. On Jan 20, 4:12*am, g0pkh wrote: robert;690440 Wrote: Hi John, Okay I'll give it a shot and post back. Robert On Jan 19, 6:43*pm, John Robertson wrote:- robert wrote:- Hi Pete,- - I took the gripper motor apart, cleaned it out polished up the communicator and thought that would solve the problem but when I connected it and ran the machine it still blew a fuse *The carousel motor is beyond my repair ability so I think I'm going to have to get a replacement anyway.- - I don't see the capacitors on these particular motors. *I have a Rockola 483 that I plan on restoring (if I ever get this one done!) that does have the caps on the motor.- - The kicker is that these two motors are going to cost more than I paid for the machine *lol.- Before you replace the motors try running a thin flat blade between each commutator on the armature. I have had motors that have too much carbon jammed in between each commutator conductor leading to the appearance of a shorted motor. Do not use a blade like an Exacto, you need something thin and flat ended to scrape the bottom of the grove between each conductor. Polishing the faces of the commutator won't help that much. John :-#)# - Robert- - On Jan 19, 5:10 am, g0pkh wrote:- Hi Robert-- -- A while back I restored my first jukebox, A Rock-Ola 474 machine.-- -- I too had problems with both of these motors.-- -- I was really lucky and managed to find two brand new old stock armatures for them. And after a complete rebuild and regrease, they now run brilliantly.-- -- They are 28V DC Motors. I tested mine by connecting them to a Bench Variable Power Supply unit, and wound up the voltage slowly while monitoring the current. Mine were both taking in excess of 2A which is the limit of my PSU. By the time I got to 20V DC-- -- I found that after the rebuild the motors would run off load and consume in the area of 500mA, while at the full 28V.-- -- I didn't have a problem with shorted turns on mine. The problem I had was that the commutators (sections where the brushes connect the armature) had a deep groove worn in them, plus the grease in the gearboxes had congealed, and needed to be cleaned out completely, then fully regreased.-- -- Also with the armatures and brushes removed, you may like to check the suppression capacitors (tubular devices connected across the motors) for a short circuit.-- -- These capacitors are installed to reduce motor noise. Strangely the motors in my machine did not have these fitted.-- -- Hope this info helps-- -- Pete-- -- -- g0pkh-- -- * * (Please post followups or tech enquiries to the newsgroup) * John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 * Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games) * * * * * * * * * * *www.flippers.com * * * *"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."- Hi Robert If you do as John suggests. That may sort the armatures out. However you will still need two sets of brushes. You can buy them from a chap in Germany here. http://www.jukebox-world.de/ He does brush sets for most of these motors. Pete P.S Tell about paying more than what the machine is worth LOL That is the problem with restoring these girls. It seems likely that yours both had the motors replaced for duff before it was scrapped. -- g0pkh |
#18
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Rockola 440 Gripper and Magazine Motor Blowing Fuses
robert wrote:
Hi Pete, Thanks for the link. If cleaning between the communicator bars solves the issue of any shorts, will the motor still work with the worn brushes or will I have to replace them before I can test the motor? Robert. It all depends on the length and condition of the brushes. I figure a brush is worn out when it is less than 2X as it is wide. Victoryglass.com also has brushes if I'm not mistaken... We have brushes but not on our web site yet. John :-#)# On Jan 20, 4:12 am, g0pkh wrote: robert;690440 Wrote: Hi John, Okay I'll give it a shot and post back. Robert On Jan 19, 6:43*pm, John Robertson wrote:- robert wrote:- Hi Pete,- - I took the gripper motor apart, cleaned it out polished up the communicator and thought that would solve the problem but when I connected it and ran the machine it still blew a fuse *The carousel motor is beyond my repair ability so I think I'm going to have to get a replacement anyway.- - I don't see the capacitors on these particular motors. *I have a Rockola 483 that I plan on restoring (if I ever get this one done!) that does have the caps on the motor.- - The kicker is that these two motors are going to cost more than I paid for the machine *lol.- Before you replace the motors try running a thin flat blade between each commutator on the armature. I have had motors that have too much carbon jammed in between each commutator conductor leading to the appearance of a shorted motor. Do not use a blade like an Exacto, you need something thin and flat ended to scrape the bottom of the grove between each conductor. Polishing the faces of the commutator won't help that much. John :-#)# - Robert- - On Jan 19, 5:10 am, g0pkh wrote:- Hi Robert-- -- A while back I restored my first jukebox, A Rock-Ola 474 machine.-- -- I too had problems with both of these motors.-- -- I was really lucky and managed to find two brand new old stock armatures for them. And after a complete rebuild and regrease, they now run brilliantly.-- -- They are 28V DC Motors. I tested mine by connecting them to a Bench Variable Power Supply unit, and wound up the voltage slowly while monitoring the current. Mine were both taking in excess of 2A which is the limit of my PSU. By the time I got to 20V DC-- -- I found that after the rebuild the motors would run off load and consume in the area of 500mA, while at the full 28V.-- -- I didn't have a problem with shorted turns on mine. The problem I had was that the commutators (sections where the brushes connect the armature) had a deep groove worn in them, plus the grease in the gearboxes had congealed, and needed to be cleaned out completely, then fully regreased.-- -- Also with the armatures and brushes removed, you may like to check the suppression capacitors (tubular devices connected across the motors) for a short circuit.-- -- These capacitors are installed to reduce motor noise. Strangely the motors in my machine did not have these fitted.-- -- Hope this info helps-- -- Pete-- -- -- g0pkh-- -- * * (Please post followups or tech enquiries to the newsgroup) * John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 * Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games) * * * * * * * * * * *www.flippers.com * * * *"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."- Hi Robert If you do as John suggests. That may sort the armatures out. However you will still need two sets of brushes. You can buy them from a chap in Germany here. http://www.jukebox-world.de/ He does brush sets for most of these motors. Pete P.S Tell about paying more than what the machine is worth LOL That is the problem with restoring these girls. It seems likely that yours both had the motors replaced for duff before it was scrapped. -- g0pkh -- (Please post followups or tech enquiries to the newsgroup) John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out." |
#19
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Rockola 440 Gripper and Magazine Motor Blowing Fuses
Hi Guys,
Just an update, I cleaned in between the communicator bars. When I plugged the motor back to the machine, it blew the fuse immediately. Before it would take a few seconds but this was instant. I think this motor is, as they would say on www.jukebox-world.de/, "KAPUT!" Robert On Jan 20, 3:40*pm, John Robertson wrote: robert wrote: Hi Pete, Thanks for the link. If cleaning between the communicator bars solves the issue of any shorts, will the motor still work with the worn brushes or will I have to replace them before I can test the motor? Robert. It all depends on the length and condition of the brushes. I figure a brush is worn out when it is less than 2X as it is wide. Victoryglass.com also has brushes if I'm not mistaken... We have brushes but not on our web site yet. John :-#)# On Jan 20, 4:12 am, g0pkh wrote: robert;690440 Wrote: Hi John, Okay I'll give it a shot and post back. Robert On Jan 19, 6:43*pm, John Robertson wrote:- robert wrote:- Hi Pete,- - I took the gripper motor apart, cleaned it out polished up the communicator and thought that would solve the problem but when I connected it and ran the machine it still blew a fuse *The carousel motor is beyond my repair ability so I think I'm going to have to get a replacement anyway.- - I don't see the capacitors on these particular motors. *I have a Rockola 483 that I plan on restoring (if I ever get this one done!) that does have the caps on the motor.- - The kicker is that these two motors are going to cost more than I paid for the machine *lol.- Before you replace the motors try running a thin flat blade between each commutator on the armature. I have had motors that have too much carbon jammed in between each commutator conductor leading to the appearance of a shorted motor. Do not use a blade like an Exacto, you need something thin and flat ended to scrape the bottom of the grove between each conductor. Polishing the faces of the commutator won't help that much. John :-#)# - Robert- - On Jan 19, 5:10 am, g0pkh wrote:- Hi Robert-- -- A while back I restored my first jukebox, A Rock-Ola 474 machine.-- -- I too had problems with both of these motors.-- -- I was really lucky and managed to find two brand new old stock armatures for them. And after a complete rebuild and regrease, they now run brilliantly.-- -- They are 28V DC Motors. I tested mine by connecting them to a Bench Variable Power Supply unit, and wound up the voltage slowly while monitoring the current. Mine were both taking in excess of 2A which is the limit of my PSU. By the time I got to 20V DC-- -- I found that after the rebuild the motors would run off load and consume in the area of 500mA, while at the full 28V.-- -- I didn't have a problem with shorted turns on mine. The problem I had was that the commutators (sections where the brushes connect the armature) had a deep groove worn in them, plus the grease in the gearboxes had congealed, and needed to be cleaned out completely, then fully regreased.-- -- Also with the armatures and brushes removed, you may like to check the suppression capacitors (tubular devices connected across the motors) for a short circuit.-- -- These capacitors are installed to reduce motor noise. Strangely the motors in my machine did not have these fitted.-- -- Hope this info helps-- -- Pete-- -- -- g0pkh-- -- * * (Please post followups or tech enquiries to the newsgroup) * John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 * Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games) * * * * * * * * * * *www.flippers.com * * * *"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."- Hi Robert If you do as John suggests. That may sort the armatures out. However you will still need two sets of brushes. You can buy them from a chap in Germany here. http://www.jukebox-world.de/ He does brush sets for most of these motors. Pete P.S Tell about paying more than what the machine is worth LOL That is the problem with restoring these girls. It seems likely that yours both had the motors replaced for duff before it was scrapped. -- g0pkh -- * * (Please post followups or tech enquiries to the newsgroup) * John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 * Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games) * * * * * * * * * * *www.flippers.com * * * *"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out." |
#20
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Quote:
If the brushes are not too badly worn, then yes the motor will still work. However, I saw a picture of one of your motors which showed one brush as completely worn to the end. if you have two reasonable brushes out of the remaining 3 (out of both motors of course) then give it a try. You would be wise when testing to use an ammeter in series with the motor to monitor the current (10A range if possible). How are you for test gear ? Once you get into this sort of repair you start to need the extra gear unfortunately. A variable bench power supply is invaluable here. Pete |
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