Germany Briefzentrum/postcode correlation

malcolm wrote:
Can someone please confirm or deny my assumption that the number on
"Briefzentrum" postmarks corresponds with the first 2 digits on the 5-
digit "town" postmarks.

Confirm.

... I need to make a decision whether to
rearrange my postmark collection by political or postal boundaries.

IMHO postal boundaries make more sense if it is just a question of
arranging/ordering a collection. But if you wanted to show, say, the
postal history of a region or a district, political boundaries are
better. In short, do whatever fits your intentions best.

... but I cannot find a "general" site in
English which sets out the principles and specifics of the "system",

The first two figures are easy. See Wikipedia's page on "Postal codes
in Germany". The following figures are for the individual towns, and
certain ranges correspond to certain regions. Large towns have a whole
range of postcodes that does not overlap with other towns' postcodes.
The three last figures are also used to code postboxes and customers
who receive a lot of mail such as city councils, large businesses, or
some universities.

nor a "reverse" postcode finder which allows me to find a town from
the postcode. ...

http://www.postdirekt.de/plzserver/PlzSearchServlet
works both ways.

I hope I could help.

Jan-Martin

Can someone please confirm or deny my assumption that the number on
"Briefzentrum" postmarks corresponds with the first 2 digits on the 5-
digit "town" postmarks.

I already know that the regional postmark centres do not correspond to
the "land" boundaries and I need to make a decision whether to
rearrange my postmark collection by political or postal boundaries. I
already have found a method of correlating the 4 digit West german
postcodes with the 5 figure ones via Wikipedia.

I have located several websites which enable me to find an individual
postcode from a given address, but I cannot find a "general" site in
English which sets out the principles and specifics of the "system",
nor a "reverse" postcode finder which allows me to find a town from
the postcode.The problem is that "Google" produces so many hits that I
am completely unable to navigate through it.

Any assistance would be gratefully received

Malcolm

Jan-Martin

Thanks for that. I was reasonably certain of the correlation.

Mine is a general postmark collection of the whole world. So the
German part will be sectioned with the Briefzentrum "area" postmark
first, then the constituent 5-digit marks in approximate numerical
order within the Briefzentrum - and any pre- 5 digit or even pre-
postcode markings mounted with the relevant 5 -digit ones - so each
area will have its own mini-collection, and all the postmark from any
period any town will also be together.

Can you help me further, please? In what circumstances are the 5-digit
"town" postmarks used in preference to the "area" marks? Is it that
mail within 1 area is postmarked locally whereas inter-area and
international mail uses the central sorting postmark, when it is
forwarded to the destination "area" ? I have contemporary dates where
some have the Briefzentrum pmk while others have the town mark.
Unfortunately they are on piece from kiloware and not on cover so I
have no evidence as to the destination in relation to the source. Also
is there any difference in usage of first and second class letter
mail, and packet post and parcels ? I would guess that registered or
other special services receive the postmark at the post office counter
rather than the sorting office , as happens in the UK.

I do feel that the collection of this type of material has much more
individualism than a straight stamp collection ( and it improves my
geographical knowledge no end!! )

Thanks again for your assistance

Malcolm,

malcolm wrote:

... In what circumstances are the 5-digit
"town" postmarks used in preference to the "area" marks? Is it that
mail within 1 area is postmarked locally whereas inter-area and
international mail uses the central sorting postmark, when it is
forwarded to the destination "area" ?

No; there is no distinction between local and interurban mail
any more. Everything that is posted in a postbox will go to
the sorting centre (my translation of "Briefzentrum"), and be
postmarked there. Many, if not most items that are posted in
a post office will get the postmark of said office, but
depending on the amount of mail, ordinary letters posted
at the counter may also be postmarked at the sorting centre.

Some bulk mailers have their own "town postmarks". These
postmarks are of an easily recognisable design, and are
mostly found on stamps of the mass mailing rates.

... Also
is there any difference in usage of first and second class letter
mail, and packet post and parcels ?

There is no distinction between first and second class mail in
Germany. Even mass mailings / printed matters (Infopost) seem
to enter the normal mail stream once they have been through the
sorting office.

Small packets (Paeckchen) - if stamped - are normally postmarked
at the post office where they are handed in. Parcels are not
stamped and do not get "normal" postmarks; instead, the necessary
information is printed on the parcel label.

Of course, franking labels are becoming increasingly common.

I would guess that registered or
other special services receive the postmark at the post office counter
rather than the sorting office , as happens in the UK.

This is true.

I do feel that the collection of this type of material has much more
individualism than a straight stamp collection ...

I agree. It also needs a lot of album pages ;-)

If you find "BRIEFREGION" postmarks: They predate those
with "BRIEFZENTRUM", and remained in use for a few years
before they were all replaced.

Jan-Martin

Jan-Martin

Thanks again for your very full reply to my questions. I have already
mounted up my Briefzentrum and 5-figure postcodes, and am now starting
to identify the 4-figure W.German postmarks ( the bulk of my
collection ) for inclusion in the appropriate place. My pre-postcode
collection will follow.

I think that the info. which you supplied together with the various
websites I have bookmarked will answer most of the questions which
will arise, but I will no doubt have specific questions which I may
return to in the future, and beg the board's indulgence in advance.

Malcolm







On Nov 21, 9:00*pm, Jan-Martin Hertzsch wrote:
malcolm wrote:
... In what circumstances are the 5-digit
"town" postmarks used in preference to the "area" marks? Is it that
mail within 1 area is postmarked locally whereas inter-area and
international mail uses the central sorting postmark, when it is
forwarded to the destination "area" ?

No; there is no distinction between local and interurban mail
any more. Everything that is posted in a postbox will go to
the sorting centre (my translation of "Briefzentrum"), and be
postmarked there. Many, if not most items that are posted in
a post office will get the postmark of said office, but
depending on the amount of mail, ordinary letters posted
at the counter may also be postmarked at the sorting centre.

Some bulk mailers have their own "town postmarks". These
postmarks are of an easily recognisable design, and are
mostly found on stamps of the mass mailing rates.

* ... Also

is there any difference in usage of first and second class letter
mail, and packet post and parcels ?

There is no distinction between first and second class mail in
Germany. Even mass mailings / printed matters (Infopost) seem
to enter the normal mail stream once they have been through the
sorting office.

Small packets (Paeckchen) - if stamped - are normally postmarked
at the post office where they are handed in. Parcels are not
stamped and do not get "normal" postmarks; instead, the necessary
information is printed on the parcel label.

Of course, franking labels are becoming increasingly common.

I would guess that registered or
other special services receive the postmark at the post office counter
rather than the sorting office , as happens in the UK.

This is true.

I do feel that the collection of this type of material has much more
individualism than a straight stamp *collection ...

I agree. It also needs a lot of album pages ;-)

If you find "BRIEFREGION" postmarks: They predate those
with "BRIEFZENTRUM", and remained in use for a few years
before they were all replaced.

Jan-Martin

malcolm wrote:
... am now starting
to identify the 4-figure W.German postmarks ( the bulk of my
collection ) for inclusion in the appropriate place.

There is a conversion page at
http://www.informatik.uni-stuttgart....n/ako/plz.html
(note that it is not an official one!) that might help you
matching old postcodes to new ones (as they were in 1994).
Of course, there have been changes to post offices and to
administrative districts in the meantime.

Jan-Martin

Thanks again Jan-Martin. I have tried to use the site you mention.
However I cannot find the new postcode by just using the old - I seem
to have to have the town name as well - although I cannot read
sufficient German to know whether I am actually using the site
correctly.Many of the actual names on the postmarks are not
identifiable.
However a combination of other sources and sites has meant that I have
managed to identify all the postmarks except 6.

They are 5500,2724,5357.

I trhink 5500 may be Trier,2724 contains "rotenburg", and 5357 ends
ttal, but the name is too short for Wupperttal.

6700 ????? am Rhein 1
2963 Sudbrookmerland


The last one although I have the full text completely defies all
efforts to identify it. I suspect that the spelling has
changed.Fallingrain has a Sudbruch and a Sudbrock. The former
pronunciation is favourite I think. There is no Google for Sudbrook,
Merland OR Sudbrookmerland.

Any ideas Jan-Martin ( or anyone else )

Malcolm





n Nov 27, 6:55*pm, Jan-Martin Hertzsch wrote:
malcolm wrote:
... am now starting
to identify the 4-figure W.German postmarks ( the bulk of my
collection ) for inclusion in the appropriate place.

There is a conversion page athttp://www.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/menschen/ako/plz.html
(note that it is not an official one!) that might help you
matching old postcodes to new ones (as they were in 1994).
Of course, there have been changes to post offices and to
administrative districts in the meantime.

Jan-Martin

I used to have an old German road atlas that had an index in the
back ordered according to the old 4-digit postcodes. In the late '90s,
I happened to be overweight with my luggage so I left the thing behind,
seeing as how it was getting obsolete (the change to 5-digit codes was
made in 1993) and it was time for a new atlas anyway. I wish I had that
old atlas back again ....
Based on assorted Google searches combining the numbers with PLZ
(abbreviation for Postleitzahl, the German word for postcode) I can find
the following:

2724 can be Bötersen, Everinghausen, Ahausen, Stuckenborstel, Sottrum
(Rotenburg is PLZ 2720, these towns are in Landkreis Rotenburg -
probably lots of other small towns share that PLZ too)
2963 is Südbrookmerland (umlaut over the u, can be spelled
Suedbrookmerland without using an umlaut)
5357 is Swisttal
5500 is Trier
6700 is Ludwigshafen am Rhein

Postcard collector sites are often organized by old PLZs - here's
one I used. Enter the PLZ under "Schnellsuche" and click "SUCHEN"

http://www.ansichtskarten-center.de/webshop/index.php

Another one:

http://www.briefmarkenfischer.de/ind...utschland.html

Any lists of old PLZs I could find were generally very spotty,
missing lots of numbers. The biggest list I could find was this one:

http://reichsmeldestelle.info/plz/a.html

Replace "a.html" with "b.html", "c.html", etc to do a
labour-intensive search of the list, using Ctrl-F or whatever the menu
shortcut for searching happens to be, according to the internet browser
you are using. West German PLZs have a W- prefix, East German PLZs have
an O- prefix.

Ryan

-----

malcolm wrote:
Thanks again Jan-Martin. I have tried to use the site you mention.
However I cannot find the new postcode by just using the old - I seem
to have to have the town name as well - although I cannot read
sufficient German to know whether I am actually using the site
correctly.Many of the actual names on the postmarks are not
identifiable.
However a combination of other sources and sites has meant that I have
managed to identify all the postmarks except 6.

They are 5500,2724,5357.

I trhink 5500 may be Trier,2724 contains "rotenburg", and 5357 ends
ttal, but the name is too short for Wupperttal.

6700 ????? am Rhein 1
2963 Sudbrookmerland


The last one although I have the full text completely defies all
efforts to identify it. I suspect that the spelling has
changed.Fallingrain has a Sudbruch and a Sudbrock. The former
pronunciation is favourite I think. There is no Google for Sudbrook,
Merland OR Sudbrookmerland.

Any ideas Jan-Martin ( or anyone else )

Malcolm



n Nov 27, 6:55 pm, Jan-Martin Hertzsch wrote:
malcolm wrote:
... am now starting
to identify the 4-figure W.German postmarks ( the bulk of my
collection ) for inclusion in the appropriate place.
There is a conversion page athttp://www.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/menschen/ako/plz.html
(note that it is not an official one!) that might help you
matching old postcodes to new ones (as they were in 1994).
Of course, there have been changes to post offices and to
administrative districts in the meantime.

Jan-Martin

Ryan

Thanks for your help. Would you believe that the only bit of the
postmark missing on 2724 is the bit prior to the rotenburg.There is a
bit after which says,I think,Wumm 1 - or possibly womm 1. I think I
can narrow down the first bit by calculating the probable number of
letters, using symmetry - however for the longer names abbreviation
might be possible so this may not be conclusive. I think I might have
to wait and see whether another postmark turns up.

I know that people like close-clipped kiloware, but I sometimes wish
that the pieces were not QUITE so close-clipped.

I will have to add your web-sites to my postmark favourites.

The great thing about help on this board is that sometimes the helpers
approach the subject from different starting points,and you get a
greater breadth of knowledge as a result.

The original reply answered the majority of my questions, but I would
never have thought of going via a postcard site,and this just fills in
the gaps nicely.

Very many thanks to you both.

More questions may follow later.

Malcolm




Dec 5, 11:06*am, Ryan Davenport wrote:
* * *I used to have an old German road atlas that had an index in the
back ordered according to the old 4-digit postcodes. *In the late '90s,
I happened to be overweight with my luggage so I left the thing behind,
seeing as how it was getting obsolete (the change to 5-digit codes was
made in 1993) and it was time for a new atlas anyway. *I wish I had that
old atlas back again ....
* * *Based on assorted Google searches combining the numbers with PLZ
(abbreviation for Postleitzahl, the German word for postcode) I can find
the following:

2724 can be Bötersen, Everinghausen, Ahausen, Stuckenborstel, Sottrum
(Rotenburg is PLZ 2720, these towns are in Landkreis Rotenburg -
probably lots of other small towns share that PLZ too)
2963 is Südbrookmerland (umlaut over the u, can be spelled
Suedbrookmerland without using an umlaut)
5357 is Swisttal
5500 is Trier
6700 is Ludwigshafen am Rhein

* * *Postcard collector sites are often organized by old PLZs - here's
one I used. *Enter the PLZ under "Schnellsuche" and click "SUCHEN"

http://www.ansichtskarten-center.de/webshop/index.php

* * *Another one:

http://www.briefmarkenfischer.de/ind...estdeutschland....

* * *Any lists of old PLZs I could find were generally very spotty,
missing lots of numbers. *The biggest list I could find was this one:

http://reichsmeldestelle.info/plz/a.html

* * *Replace "a.html" with "b.html", "c.html", etc to do a
labour-intensive search of the list, using Ctrl-F or whatever the menu
shortcut for searching happens to be, according to the internet browser
you are using. *West German PLZs have a W- prefix, East German PLZs have
an O- prefix.

* * *Ryan

-----



malcolm wrote:
Thanks again Jan-Martin. I have tried to use the site you mention.
However I cannot find the new postcode by just using the old - I seem
to have to have the town name as well - although I cannot read
sufficient German to know whether I am actually using the site
correctly.Many of the actual names on the postmarks are not
identifiable.
However a combination of other sources and sites has meant that I have
managed to identify all the postmarks except 6.

They are 5500,2724,5357.

I trhink 5500 may be Trier,2724 contains *"rotenburg", and 5357 ends
ttal, but the name is too short for Wupperttal.

6700 ????? am Rhein 1
2963 Sudbrookmerland

The last one although I have the full text completely defies all
efforts to identify it. I suspect that the spelling has
changed.Fallingrain has a Sudbruch and a Sudbrock. The former
pronunciation is favourite I think. There is no Google for Sudbrook,
Merland *OR Sudbrookmerland.

Any ideas Jan-Martin ( or anyone else )

Malcolm

n Nov 27, 6:55 pm, Jan-Martin Hertzsch wrote:
malcolm wrote:
... am now starting
to identify the 4-figure W.German postmarks ( the bulk of my
collection ) for inclusion in the appropriate place.
There is a conversion page athttp://www.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/menschen/ako/plz.html
(note that it is not an official one!) that might help you
matching old postcodes to new ones (as they were in 1994).
Of course, there have been changes to post offices and to
administrative districts in the meantime.

Jan-Martin- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

malcolm schrieb:
Ryan

Thanks for your help. Would you believe that the only bit of the
postmark missing on 2724 is the bit prior to the rotenburg.There is a
bit after which says,I think,Wumm 1 - or possibly womm 1. I think I
can narrow down the first bit by calculating the probable number of
letters, using symmetry - however for the longer names abbreviation
might be possible so this may not be conclusive. I think I might have
to wait and see whether another postmark turns up.

I know that people like close-clipped kiloware, but I sometimes wish
that the pieces were not QUITE so close-clipped.

I will have to add your web-sites to my postmark favourites.

The great thing about help on this board is that sometimes the helpers
approach the subject from different starting points,and you get a
greater breadth of knowledge as a result.

The original reply answered the majority of my questions, but I would
never have thought of going via a postcard site,and this just fills in
the gaps nicely.

Very many thanks to you both.

More questions may follow later.

Malcolm




Dec 5, 11:06 am, Ryan Davenport wrote:
I used to have an old German road atlas that had an index in the
back ordered according to the old 4-digit postcodes. In the late '90s,
I happened to be overweight with my luggage so I left the thing behind,
seeing as how it was getting obsolete (the change to 5-digit codes was
made in 1993) and it was time for a new atlas anyway. I wish I had that
old atlas back again ....
Based on assorted Google searches combining the numbers with PLZ
(abbreviation for Postleitzahl, the German word for postcode) I can find
the following:

2724 can be Bötersen, Everinghausen, Ahausen, Stuckenborstel, Sottrum
(Rotenburg is PLZ 2720, these towns are in Landkreis Rotenburg -
probably lots of other small towns share that PLZ too)
2963 is Südbrookmerland (umlaut over the u, can be spelled
Suedbrookmerland without using an umlaut)
5357 is Swisttal
5500 is Trier
6700 is Ludwigshafen am Rhein

Postcard collector sites are often organized by old PLZs - here's
one I used. Enter the PLZ under "Schnellsuche" and click "SUCHEN"

http://www.ansichtskarten-center.de/webshop/index.php

Another one:

http://www.briefmarkenfischer.de/ind...estdeutschland....

Any lists of old PLZs I could find were generally very spotty,
missing lots of numbers. The biggest list I could find was this one:

http://reichsmeldestelle.info/plz/a.html

Replace "a.html" with "b.html", "c.html", etc to do a
labour-intensive search of the list, using Ctrl-F or whatever the menu
shortcut for searching happens to be, according to the internet browser
you are using. West German PLZs have a W- prefix, East German PLZs have
an O- prefix.

Ryan

-----



malcolm wrote:
Thanks again Jan-Martin. I have tried to use the site you mention.
However I cannot find the new postcode by just using the old - I seem
to have to have the town name as well - although I cannot read
sufficient German to know whether I am actually using the site
correctly.Many of the actual names on the postmarks are not
identifiable.
However a combination of other sources and sites has meant that I have
managed to identify all the postmarks except 6.
They are 5500,2724,5357.
I trhink 5500 may be Trier,2724 contains "rotenburg", and 5357 ends
ttal, but the name is too short for Wupperttal.
6700 ????? am Rhein 1
2963 Sudbrookmerland
The last one although I have the full text completely defies all
efforts to identify it. I suspect that the spelling has
changed.Fallingrain has a Sudbruch and a Sudbrock. The former
pronunciation is favourite I think. There is no Google for Sudbrook,
Merland OR Sudbrookmerland.
Any ideas Jan-Martin ( or anyone else )
Malcolm
n Nov 27, 6:55 pm, Jan-Martin Hertzsch wrote:
malcolm wrote:
... am now starting
to identify the 4-figure W.German postmarks ( the bulk of my
collection ) for inclusion in the appropriate place.
There is a conversion page athttp://www.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/menschen/ako/plz.html
(note that it is not an official one!) that might help you
matching old postcodes to new ones (as they were in 1994).
Of course, there have been changes to post offices and to
administrative districts in the meantime.
Jan-Martin- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

Hi

You can find two towns named "Rotenburg" in Germany - one is named
"Rotenburg ob der Tauber" and one "Rotenburg Wümme". Obviosly your
postmark is "Rotenburg Wümme" postoffice 1.



Peter

--