A collecting forum. CollectingBanter

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » CollectingBanter forum » Collecting newsgroups » Coins
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

Europeans are Slow



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11  
Old February 1st 04, 07:43 PM
Ami .
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Besides as we all know, anything less than PR71 SD(that
is,SupaDupa)DCAM in a rose tinted acrylic slab isn't worth the
collecting...

Wow! A PR71 SD. Does anyone have a photo example of a SupaDupa grade
coin?



Ads
  #12  
Old February 1st 04, 08:52 PM
Jorg Lueke
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Sun, 1 Feb 2004 13:28:26 -0500, Scottishmoney
wrote:


"Jorg Lueke" wrote in message
What about authentication, do you expect every collector to be able to
do
this themselves as well?


Yes I do as a matter of fact, why trust someone else? If you can't
authenticate it, you shouldn't collect it. That is how I feel. Little
experience here, back in 1993 when I was in Hamburg, Germany I purchased
a
Hamburg 20 Marks coin dated 1911. Look in your catalog of World coins,
and
you will notice there is no such thing. Who do I blame for it, myself or
the dealer whom sold the counterfeit to me. I blame myself for not
knowing
better. Now when I look at it I see the soft details of a cast coin. I
should have known better before parting with the 150 marks for it. Live
and
learn. Now I do not buy stuff I have not researched well and cannot
determine if they are authentic or not. Also I looked for tooled coins,
not
much of a problem with USA coins, but a real problem when you get into
medieval and early milled coins.

Dave

Kudos to you Dave for being knowledgable and confident in your abilities.
That is certainly the smartest approach: Buy what you can understand both
in terms of grade and authenticity. However, this approach limits the
playing field to knowledgable collectors only, at least when the prices
start to rise. Why shouldn't a casual fellow be able to buy a few nice
old coins that he enjoys and also receive a guarantee that these items are
real. I don't have to verify that my car parts are genuine why is the
burden on the consumer with old coins?

  #13  
Old February 1st 04, 09:01 PM
Jorg Lueke
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Sun, 01 Feb 2004 17:05:13 GMT, Ian wrote:




My dear Jorg, we HAVE figured out how to do it right, and we HAVE taken
the good and left the bad. :-) We keep the coins and discard the
collateral junk you guys call slabs (irrespective of name or insignia on
them).

It's at this point I take some delight in casually reminding you that
there have been coin collectors in europe long before the US was even a
twinkle in your Uncle Sam's eye, let alone it having any coins to play
with.


That is obviously true although the market here is bigger. And you know
to us bigger = better :-)

Sadly, as you well know, the public doesn't necessarily get what the
public wants, but rather gets exactly what is `sold' to it as being in
the best interest.


That depends on the subject, but coins are fairly unrelgulated (perhaps
too much so) and in an unregulated market people usually get what they are
willing to pay for. Certainly marketing and advertising can influence the
consumer base but usually that dosen't last for to long.

The European market regenerates itself rather than `grows' (as in
`expansion'). There are thousands of `casual' collectors as in those
people who collect loose change or slightly more advanced. There are
virtually no `casual' collectors in investment terms, as there has never
been the `investment market' type hype over here (it just wouldn't wear
in any event). As such, different culture, different standards, and
different sensibilities.


Coins as investments are best left alone. The FTC has even stepped in on
these shores when advertisers becamne a bit too focused on the term
investment.

One could easily argue that us yewrowpeens are not as gullible as you
'merkins. Besides as we all know, anything less than PR71 SD(that
is,SupaDupa)DCAM in a rose tinted acrylic slab isn't worth the
collecting as far as euros are concerned.


And I am not really concerned with grading. Grading a series is not too
hard within 1/2 grade or 2-3 MS points :-) Where I see the value of slabs
is in authentication. I would be very interested to see the % of raw US
gold that was fake in 1975 versus now versus the % slabbed
(ANACS/ICG/PCGS/NGC) gold that is fake. Similarly I would be interested
to know the number of fake denarii or city view thalers. Much of this can
be alleviated by dealing with the right people, but casual collectors may
not easily know who these people might be. Ebay, for better and worse,
has created a larger market place for coins as well and as the markets
grow I think consumers, even in old Europe, will eventually prefer the
protection of a slab over the word of any one person. Whether or not the
supergrade crap comes with it is another matter.

  #14  
Old February 1st 04, 09:20 PM
Scottishmoney
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Jorg Lueke" wrote in message
news
Kudos to you Dave for being knowledgable and confident in your abilities.
That is certainly the smartest approach: Buy what you can understand both
in terms of grade and authenticity. However, this approach limits the
playing field to knowledgable collectors only, at least when the prices
start to rise. Why shouldn't a casual fellow be able to buy a few nice
old coins that he enjoys and also receive a guarantee that these items are
real. I don't have to verify that my car parts are genuine why is the
burden on the consumer with old coins?

Frankly I see a lot of collectors whom will only collect coins by a certain
grading firm. However in my about 15 year experience in looking at third
party graded coins I have seen that old PCGS was graded on much tougher
standards than new PCGS. On the far ends of the spectrum look at grading
services like NGC and ACG. Frankly grading services add an unnecessary
dimension to collecting, you already should have some basic grading skills
prior to buying coins, but then when you add in the variable grading skills
of the various grading services you have nothing but complicated matters.

I have seen numerous coins graded MS-66 or 67 on fleaBay that I quite
honestly think are ugly. I think over the years, especially notable with
PCGS there has been a gradual erosion of grading standards, how is a new
collector to know this? I have even noticed in some fleaBay auctions that
there appears to be some delineation betwixt old PCGS green label coins and
the newer hologram labeled coins. I have a couple of old green labels that
it would be interesting to submit, I bet they would each come back a point
or two higher. They are Civil War era 1¢ and 3¢ pieces. I like them, but I
would rather have them in a Kointainer, the slabs mean nothing to me. I
have no plans of selling them, in fact I bought them back in the late 80's
or so so the grade on the label means nothing. It is how the goldish
redness of the 1¢ coin appeals to me, and the clear details of the 3¢ coin
that mean something. I was fortunate enough, maybe it was dumb luck, when I
was 12 years old that I blew a bit of my allowance on prooflike, and quite
raw, 1878-S Silver Dollars. I loved the cartwheels when I was a YN, now I
love them because I was at least lucky enough to have bought them and even
BU rolls of 1880's era coins when they were dirt cheap. They haven't been
and will not be slabbed until my corpse cools off anyway.

Dave


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.564 / Virus Database: 356 - Release Date: 1/19/04


  #15  
Old February 1st 04, 09:45 PM
note.boy
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Slabbing serves one purpose only, to make money for the slabbers.

Europeans have managed to collect unslabbed coins for 1,500? years.

Americans need them slabbed, sad. Billy


Jorg Lueke wrote:

To see the brilliance of slabbing. No more pewter Thalers or hammered
pennies made by Artie next door. When will they learn?

  #16  
Old February 1st 04, 09:47 PM
note.boy
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Buying from a long established UK dealer has no pitfalls. Billy


Jorg Lueke wrote:

On Sun, 1 Feb 2004 10:11:23 -0500, Scottishmoney
wrote:

Something has to be said for being able to grade a coin yourself instead
of
relying on some dope in some two bit plastic tombing company. Slabs are
$#!+. Period. I have three coins in slabs, and only don't take them out
because I do not want to damage the coins in the process of removing
them.

Dave

What about authentication, do you expect every collector to be able to do
this themselves as well?

  #17  
Old February 1st 04, 09:49 PM
note.boy
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

The wise beginner starts off with low cost coins, the less wise don't.
Billy


Jorg Lueke wrote:

On Sun, 1 Feb 2004 13:28:26 -0500, Scottishmoney
wrote:


"Jorg Lueke" wrote in message
What about authentication, do you expect every collector to be able to
do
this themselves as well?


Yes I do as a matter of fact, why trust someone else? If you can't
authenticate it, you shouldn't collect it. That is how I feel. Little
experience here, back in 1993 when I was in Hamburg, Germany I purchased
a
Hamburg 20 Marks coin dated 1911. Look in your catalog of World coins,
and
you will notice there is no such thing. Who do I blame for it, myself or
the dealer whom sold the counterfeit to me. I blame myself for not
knowing
better. Now when I look at it I see the soft details of a cast coin. I
should have known better before parting with the 150 marks for it. Live
and
learn. Now I do not buy stuff I have not researched well and cannot
determine if they are authentic or not. Also I looked for tooled coins,
not
much of a problem with USA coins, but a real problem when you get into
medieval and early milled coins.

Dave

Kudos to you Dave for being knowledgable and confident in your abilities.
That is certainly the smartest approach: Buy what you can understand both
in terms of grade and authenticity. However, this approach limits the
playing field to knowledgable collectors only, at least when the prices
start to rise. Why shouldn't a casual fellow be able to buy a few nice
old coins that he enjoys and also receive a guarantee that these items are
real. I don't have to verify that my car parts are genuine why is the
burden on the consumer with old coins?

  #18  
Old February 1st 04, 09:51 PM
note.boy
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

The USA will have a President with an IQ above 9 before European
collectors embrace slabbed coins, we are far to smart to be suckered.
Billy


Jorg Lueke wrote:

On Sun, 01 Feb 2004 13:06:35 GMT, Ian wrote:

Jorg Lueke wrote:

To see the brilliance of slabbing. No more pewter Thalers or hammered
pennies made by Artie next door. When will they learn?


Europeans are slow?

So then, are you hereby making an apology to ACG for ever doubting the
brilliance of their products and services?....and PCI for following in
their footsteps? or are you suggesting that you need to be a little more
discriminating with your `the brilliance of slabbing' generality. We
europeans have (so far) successfully avoided the absolute mess that is
3rd party grading (vested interest)in the United States, and you call us
europeans slow...hah!!

For what it is worth I have a growing collection of `slabs' from the US
that are mis graded, mis attributed (ie downright `wrong') to help
remind me not to get caught up in the apparent swell from Left Pondia.
None of them are ACG by the way. I don't have one with a counterfeit mis
attributed as being the real thing as yet, but i'm aware that they
exist...and i'm looking. :-)

Ian


No, actually I would think that given the past 15-20 years of experience
you guys could figure out how to do it right by taking the good and
leaving the bad. I am no fan some of the grading, but it is what people
here want. I do think the authentication angle is very useful (from
PCGS,ANACS, and NGC) and as the European market grows more casual
collectors will probably demand this type of protection sooner or later.
Heck, the kids growing up today might even go after MS-69 Euros at $2000 a
piece :-)

  #19  
Old February 1st 04, 10:29 PM
Colin Kynoch
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Sun, 01 Feb 2004 10:20:10 -0600, Jorg Lueke
wrote:

On Sun, 1 Feb 2004 10:11:23 -0500, Scottishmoney
wrote:

Something has to be said for being able to grade a coin yourself instead
of
relying on some dope in some two bit plastic tombing company. Slabs are
$#!+. Period. I have three coins in slabs, and only don't take them out
because I do not want to damage the coins in the process of removing
them.

Dave

What about authentication, do you expect every collector to be able to do
this themselves as well?


Any collecter worthhis salt?

Yep.

I collect Australian coins, and I also collect counterfeit Australian
coins.

Some of the fake ones are really good, and I love asking friends and
family to tell the difference.

I keep my coins in 2x2 and do not write on them, yet most people can
tell the fakes, even the good ones.

Colin Kynoch

  #20  
Old February 1st 04, 10:32 PM
Colin Kynoch
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Sun, 01 Feb 2004 20:47:55 +0000, "note.boy"
wrote:

Buying from a long established UK dealer has no pitfalls. Billy


Likewise in Australia

Colin Kynoch
 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Wurlitzer 1700 plays slow.. Randy Brown Juke Boxes 3 January 28th 05 04:00 AM
Slow Thursday, 2/19/04 Joe Autographs 0 February 19th 04 06:42 PM
Slow Day, but! Joe Rosa Autographs 1 November 14th 03 07:31 PM
Wurlitzer 1250 slow Ken G. Juke Boxes 0 August 4th 03 06:49 AM
Is eBay slow? Doggo Coins 0 July 31st 03 05:28 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 01:06 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 CollectingBanter.
The comments are property of their posters.