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#201
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Bruce Remick wrote: "note.boy" wrote in message ... Bruce Remick wrote: -- "note.boy" wrote in message ... Bruce Remick wrote: "note.boy" wrote in message ... I live in the UK and I have one slabbed coin in my collection, a UK error coin that I happened to like, so I've not dealt with slabbed coins very much. I still know however that slabbing benefits only the slabbing companies, I would still be of this opinion if I had never bought a single slabbed coin. Are you saying that tens of thousands of knowledgeable collectors and dealers have been hoodwinked now for years? Yes, although I would say "less knowledgeable collectors" and not "knowledgeable collectors". Dealers have not been hoodwinked as they profit massively from the myth that MSwhatever slabbed coins are often worth a fortune compared to slightly lower grade examples, the Emperor has no clothes but no one has said so, yet. The less knowledgeable collector can purchase the same "slab" as the knowledgeable collector with the confidence that it will much more attractive than a raw coin when it comes time to sell. If a dealer can profit, so can a careful collector. As long as there are customers for high-MS slabbed coins there will be sellers offering them. On the other hand, the opportunities are there for those who favor raw coins to obtain bargains, as the better specimens are being slabbed. There's something for everyone. The problem is that not all slabbed coin types with the same grade on the label can be 100% guaranteed to be the same grade, this can be down to the grading company's standing in the league table or the grader may have had an off day, the less knowledgeable collector may not be aware of this and will accept the grade on the label as gospel. Slabbing has introduced an extra unnecessary layer of knowledge that the new collector has to master or risk a financial penalty later when selling. Hey, there are few guarantees in life, except for the one we all don't like to think about. Since there is an active market for high MS grade coins here in the US, the opinion of a reputable third party service has become recognized as a safety net for those who want to play this game. There's no such thing as an unnecessary layer of knowledge when it comes to the fine points of interprreting the grades of high priced, high grade coins. Some confide in the reputable slabbers. Others don't. Neither is wrong. My argument is that no one should be paying silly money for allegedly high MS graded coins whether slabbed on not, minuscule improvements in grade is not worth paying mega bucks for. Slabbed high MS coins give collectors a false sense of security. Overgrading can be true of unslabbed coins but the price differential if a slabbed coin has been overgraded is more than for an unslabbed coins. It's foolish to pay mega bucks for a high MS coin when at the end of the day it's just an opinion and the difference in the coin's appearance is minimal. I avoid using the word "raw" as I think that term is derogatory towards unslabbed coins. In your mind, maybe. To most others it's simply a commonly used term. Are you really concerned about the feelings of your coins? I bet that the term "raw" was invented by a dealer and not a collector to make unslabbed coins seem less desirable than slabbed ones. You say you don't deal with slabs, yet you claim to "know" the inside information about who benefits from slabbing in the US? I suspect many here in the US would differ with you-- from first hand experience. List the benefits for collectors buying slabbed coins versus unslabbed ones, it shouldn't take long. The benefits I see are confidence in authentification, stable value and demand in the marketplace, and generally a better quality coin than most raw ones offered. More and more of the better raw examples are disappearing from the marketplace and are being placed in slabs. I don't trust my ability to always tell if a raw coin may have been cleaned and perhaps refused by a grading company. I won't buy an attractive slabbed coin at a price I feel has been inflated to include the slabbing cost. With the exception of a one-time special offer, I don't send coins off to be graded and slabbed. I prefer slabbed coins for my type set and raw coins for my series collections. Just my preference. Authentication can be assured if unslabbed coins are bought from a long time dealer with a high reputation, slabbing is not necessary. Only USA based collectors think that slabbing is often essential, elsewhere it's not necessary and the various MS grades mean nothing outside the USA. When you want to sell your unslabbed coin to me, your claim of having bought it from a long time dealer means nothing to me, regardless of who the dealer might be. Prove it. Since you feel the various MS grades mean nothing outside the US, what's your problem then? Sure, some US collectors think that slabbing is often essential. Our slabbed MS coins shouldn't bother you in the UK. Unless you have seen a growing demand for "our" slabbed coins over there. I have all receipts for the coins that I have bought from major dealers, is that enough proof for you? If not then you will understand how MS graded UK coins mean nothing to UK collectors. The problem is that USA collectors have been brainwashed into paying silly money for alleged high grade MS coins, grades that don't exist outside the USA. There are equivalents of UK grades in europe but USA grading is unique, why it that? Why trust a grading company, who do not buy and sell coins (usually), over a long established dealer who does so every day? Would you rather trust a grading service that *does* buy and sell coins? There are some large, long-established dealers here in the US, and probably in the UK as well, who do not enjoy a good reputation among knowledgeable collectors. They often rely on novice collectors who will buy their "raw" coins and not question them. Of course I would not trust a grading company that sells its own graded coins, only a fool would do that. You are wise not to restrict yourself to slabbed coins only. There is endless debate over the ranking of the grading companies and a lot of cracking out goes on trying to get a higher grade, there is also discussion as to how the grading "standards" have changed over the years. So as I said above, slabbing benefits only the slabbing companies. Among those who collect and deal with third-party-slabbed coins, there is little debate over ranking of the companies. The fact that there IS a ranking for the grading companies only proves that the slabbing of coins IS a joke. I don't get your reasoning. In the US there are rankings for doctors, lawyers, mid-size autos, you name it. Does this make the medical profession a joke? Apples and oranges, but have you heard of Doctor Harold Shipman?, a UK doctor, now deceased? I think you'll find consumer rankings for many products and services where different brands or companies are are involved. Why should slabbing services be any different? Where there is competition, the cream will rise to the top, as it usually does. If there are rankings for the grading companies due to differences in grading standards then what is the point of slabbing coins? As there is no universally recognised grading standard for slabbing coins the whole process is worthless. There are rankings for grading companies based on their perceived adherance to the most widely accepted standards of grading here in the US. The fact is that some are considered much more consistent in their interpretations than others. These companies have the highest regard among collectors. Coins slabbed by lesser-rated companies will typically sell for less than the others. If this bothers you, there are many other collecting options and you should maybe avoid US coins altogether. The rest of us seem able to live with things as they are. Again, if there are different rankings for grading companies what the point of have coins slabbed? Collectors then have to know which place in the rankings a grading company has before being able to make an informed buying decision, new collectors may not be aware of this, the very people that slabbing is claimed to protect. A UK dealer is currently attempting to sell slabbed coins here in the UK, I hope it is a miserable failure and that they loose a lot of money as this will deter others from trying to do the same. Why should you care, as long as you will still have a choice between raw and slabbed coins? I don't want the less knowledgeable here in the UK to be suckered in to paying silly money for slabbed coins as has happened in the USA. The "investment" word appears on their home page, this should be a big red flag. Your presumption here is that they are being "suckered". Over the long run, I would say the slabbed high grade coin would generally be a better investment than a comparable raw one. The less informed person often would be better served buying a professionally graded coin if he is determined to buy coins at all. Silly money can just as often be paid for overgraded or problem raw coins. They are been suckered, the attempt may fail, as the market for slabbed UK coins in the UK is virtually non existent. A coin bought from a long time UK dealer with a high reputation HAS been professionally graded. Again, your concern is curious since you say slabbed coins in the UK are virtually nonexistant. Your coin bought from a long time UK dealer with a high reputation versus my coin slabbed by a top-rated grading service. At least I can prove what I have. You are asking me to believe that your claim should guarantee something to me. Does every UK dealer grade identically? Is every UK dealer who sells coins for a living a professional grader? No, of course not every UK dealer grades identically, but in the UK a tiny difference in MS grade does not have a dramatic effect on the value of a coin because we have no MS grading system. You seem to be suggesting that the only "professional graders" are those that work for the USA grading companies, are you? A UK dealer who consistently overgraded his coins would not be around for long. http://www.certifiedgbcoins.com/ They want £750 for this coin, crown 1898 LXII (on edge) MS64 http://www.certifiedgbcoins.com/Crow...XII%20ms64.htm They want £500 for this one in MS63 http://www.certifiedgbcoins.com/Crow...XII%20ms63.htm Can anyone explain the difference in the appearance that makes one worth £750 and the other £500? And once that has been explained explain why anyone should buy either when a coin with an identical catalogue value, crown 1899 LXII, is on offer from Spink in "a few minor surface marks, very attractively toned with underlying brilliance, as struck" condition for £375? If someone buys the £750 coin, why not ask him? I'm asking you, why should they? £375 is a lot to pay for a bit of plastic, it doubles the cost of the coin for zero benefit. Who's to say why people do things? Perhaps there's something about that expensive coin that you missed. If a knowledgeable UK collector buys it, you probably did miss something. Some people pay a lot of money for a coin with "purty colours", why? The £750 coin is nothing special, the buyer would be paying £375 for a bit of plastic, I doubt if it will find a UK buyer, if at all. Pretend that you have £750 to spend on coins and that you fancy a Victorian crown like the ones I listed, would you blow it on the slabbed coin at £750 or buy the Spink one at £375 and still have £375 left to spend on other coins? If I thought the price was way out of line, just because of the holder, I might pass, assuming both coins were otherwise identical. If I saw that all similar Victorian crowns in a particular company's slab were routinely traded at this higher price, I might ponder it. If I had been collecting raw crowns, I would likely continue to purchase only raw crowns. Purchasing expensive slabbed coins should not be an impulse thing. I would have to justify to myself that such a purchase would be right for me as a collector. The prices ARE way out of line just because of the holder. The slabbed coins will not be routinely traded at a higher price as I'm fairly sure that UK collectors will not be taken in, but time will tell. UK collectors make decisions the same as collectors everywhere else. If they all feel the way you do, the UK will be safe from the US slabber virus for awhile at least. I think that the majority do and I hope that we will. No UK collector has yet made made a post in support of slabbing UK coins. Two I think have cancelled their subscription the the dealer's auction catalogues, I have bought from them in the past but never again. I trust Spink's grading more than some slabbing company's as Spink have been doing it for 339 years and I have not noticed any reduction in their grading standards over the past 27 or so years. How do I know this, by comparing the coin pics in old and new editions of their Numismatic Circular. Billy You have your standards and you can be satisfied by sticking to them. Others may feel more comfortable considering a professionally graded coin. Whether you personally like slabs or not should not affect how you choose to collect. Again an unslabbed coin bought from a long time dealer with a high reputation HAS been professionally graded. Why are you of the opinion that only a slabbed coin has been "professionally graded"? I think that you have been brainwashed by the grading companies hype. When I snap my fingers you will come out of it, "snap", did it work? Billy Again, what constitutes a professional? Anyone who sells coins for a living? If you faithfully believe every UK coin shoppe owner's grading, it's you who may be vulnerable to get "suckered in". The reputable professional graders in the US have no financial stake in the coin they're grading and slabbing. Your UK dealer grades his coin and then sells it. Unbiased? This situation isn't unique to the UK. We have the same situation here. That's why some collectors here prefer independently-graded and slabbed coins. And others don't. No big deal. No need for you to feel threatened by our slabbers, unless you are having second thoughts about how a potential buyer might grade that crown you bought twenty years ago from a UK "professional grader". If not, you're safe. Go on collecting. Bruce I have no idea what constitutes a professional grader, as far as I know there are none in the UK. Going by the UK coins on ebay most of my coins are at least "EF". :-) Billy |
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#202
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On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 17:46:58 GMT, "Harv" wrote:
"note.boy" wrote in message ... Again an unslabbed coin bought from a long time dealer with a high reputation HAS been professionally graded. Why are you of the opinion that only a slabbed coin has been "professionally graded"? I think that you have been brainwashed by the grading companies hype. When I snap my fingers you will come out of it, "snap", did it work? Billy I bought a Gold quarter eagle from one of the most respected dealers in the USA at a show a couple years ago. I sent it in to PCGS. It came back in a body bag: "Cleaned or Whizzed." He guaranteed authenticity, he didn't guarantee his coins had never been cleaned or whizzed. This left a sour taste in my mouth. At the next show, I showed him the body bag flip and he gave me a dirty look and offered to buy it back for a percentage less than I had paid him for it. I took the money, added some money to it, walked over to another dealer, and bought one already in an NGC slab.. I don't know diddley **** about British Crowns, I don't collect them, but I understand and respect your opinions about Spinks' reputation. This dealer also had a sterling reputation, but it would have always bothered me to keep this coin, knowing that it could never be slabbed, at least not by PCGS or NGC. ANACS would slab it with a net grade. I decided not to go that route.. Harv, I can't recall if I told you this or not, but this is the same dealer who had a 1934-D Washington quarter in a PCGS AU58 slab with "MS63" on a label, asking MS63 money at Charlotte a couple of years ago. -- K6AZ WEB PAGES http://www.k6az.com/web_pages.htm |
#203
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Fetch the tar and feathers. :-) Billy
James Highboy wrote: "note.boy" wrote in message ... How can "one of the most most respected dealers" sell coins but NOT guarantee that they have not been cleaned or whizzed? As we all know the presence of either greatly reduces the value of a coin. Billy Billy, over here on this side of the water it happens all the time. And while the value changes with cleaning or whizzing, often the price asked does not. James 'I know, complaining again' |
#204
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On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 16:53:43 -0500, K6AZ wrote:
Harv, I can't recall if I told you this or not, but this is the same dealer who had a 1934-D Washington quarter in a PCGS AU58 slab with "MS63" on a label, asking MS63 money at Charlotte a couple of years ago. What's wrong with that? Those old 58s are the 63s of the future! ;o) Chuck |
#205
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harv - I have to ask this of you. if you liked the coin enough to buy it in
the first place, why did it bother you that a slabbing company declared it whizzed? You obviously liked the coin, then someone else made a derogatory judgment about it that changed your mind. After it came back body bagged, were you able to determine with your own senses that it actually was whizzed? or did you rely solely on the opinion of the slabbing people. |
#206
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"WinWinscenario" wrote in message ... Source? Attribution? Slabs have been a standard part of the hobby for almost 20 years now. Third-party authentication goes back even further to the days when ANACS was owned by the ANA. -- mark I think the evolution of the hobby has been reflected in the transformation of some of the leading figures. For example, Q. David Bowers used to write derogatorily about the need for 3rd party grading. Then he got sucked into a CU stock deal that made him a millionaire (again) many times over. All of a sudden, slabs became a -good- thing, and his writing started to reflect that completely different view. Or maybe he just changed his mind over time. Most of us, if we are being intellectually honest, have realized that something we believed was true no longer is. Things do change, and the market acceptance of slabbed coins make them a big part of today's coin market. that was not true even ten years ago. Regards, Tom |
#207
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-- "note.boy" wrote in message ... My argument is that no one should be paying silly money for allegedly high MS graded coins whether slabbed on not, minuscule improvements in grade is not worth paying mega bucks for. Slabbed high MS coins give collectors a false sense of security. I would agree personally. But as long as people trust a grading service's call that a particular coin is a MS68 or MS69, and will pay "silly money" for it, the game will continue. You think it's stupid. I think it's stupid. But slabbed high MS coins actually give some collectors a *strong* sense of security. Ironically, many of these same collectors would pass on a MS69 coin from a reputable dealer at $200, but would pay $600 for the same MS69 coin in a reputable slab. No doubt, the slab is the driving force here with the "registry set" crowd. I don't identify with that game. I bet that the term "raw" was invented by a dealer and not a collector to make unslabbed coins seem less desirable than slabbed ones. I have no idea how, where or why the term originated, but it has become a handy 3-letter word to clearly describe a coin that has not been slabbed. I have all receipts for the coins that I have bought from major dealers, is that enough proof for you? In theory, no. All it shows me is that you paid XX for a coin that you claim is same the one you are offering to sell me. If not then you will understand how MS graded UK coins mean nothing to UK collectors. I have no trouble understanding or accepting that. Why do have trouble accepting what MS grades mean to many US collectors, and how grading services are used in the US? The problem is that USA collectors have been brainwashed into paying silly money for alleged high grade MS coins, grades that don't exist outside the USA. There are equivalents of UK grades in europe but USA grading is unique, why it that? US collectors *live* in the USA. Why should they care how our MS-graded US coins are perceived outside the US? Many US collectors don't even collect high MS-graded US coins. Maybe UK collectors have been brainwashed by dealers into believing that a perfect "gem" uncirculated crown is worth no more than another uncirculated one that isn't quite as attractive. Ridiculous? Sure. Same as your perception of our US "problem". Actually, US heritage is largely UK and European. Maybe we got the folks who were dissatisfied with the grading methods over there. Why trust a grading company, who do not buy and sell coins (usually), over a long established dealer who does so every day? Would you rather trust a grading service that *does* buy and sell coins? There are some large, long-established dealers here in the US, and probably in the UK as well, who do not enjoy a good reputation among knowledgeable collectors. They often rely on novice collectors who will buy their "raw" coins and not question them. Of course I would not trust a grading company that sells its own graded coins, only a fool would do that. You're starting to see the light. I don't get your reasoning. In the US there are rankings for doctors, lawyers, mid-size autos, you name it. Does this make the medical profession a joke? Apples and oranges, but have you heard of Doctor Harold Shipman?, a UK doctor, now deceased? If you have eight companies all offering the same service, someone somewhere will likely rank them based on various criteria. Grading services were ranked here recently. Some came out high overall. Others not so high. All offer a similar service but may compete for customers in different ways-- cheaper rates, quicker turnaround times, guarantees, etc. People submitting coins for grading and authentification choose the one that suits their taste and goals. Had Dr. Shipman been rated and slabbed, many folks might still be alive today. Again, if there are different rankings for grading companies what the point of have coins slabbed? Collectors then have to know which place in the rankings a grading company has before being able to make an informed buying decision, new collectors may not be aware of this, the very people that slabbing is claimed to protect. The point of having a coin slabbed is for authentification, to obtain a professional opinion of it's grade, and to ensure it has not been cleaned or conserved. The slabbed coin carries this documentation as the coin transfers from owner to owner-- something a paper receipt or invoice can't do. The slab of the company that performed this service will often dictate the demand and market value of the coin inside. If you want the "best", you typically look first to the company(s) with the best reputation in the hobby. New collectors have an obligation to themselves to do some minimal research on how to collect wisely before spending their good money blindly. A little study will soon enlighten the newbie. Again, your concern is curious since you say slabbed coins in the UK are virtually nonexistant. Your coin bought from a long time UK dealer with a high reputation versus my coin slabbed by a top-rated grading service. At least I can prove what I have. You are asking me to believe that your claim should guarantee something to me. Does every UK dealer grade identically? Is every UK dealer who sells coins for a living a professional grader? No, of course not every UK dealer grades identically, but in the UK a tiny difference in MS grade does not have a dramatic effect on the value of a coin because we have no MS grading system. You seem to be suggesting that the only "professional graders" are those that work for the USA grading companies, are you? A UK dealer who consistently overgraded his coins would not be around for long. You said or at least implied that a coin graded by a UK dealer is considered to be "professionally graded". In the US, when we say a coin has been professionally graded, it usually implies that one of the independent services did the grading. Simply a difference in semantics. I said I understand when you say that in the UK there is little or no interest in anything like the 11 stages of uncirculated-ness we apply to US coins. I presume you understand that the MS60-70 grading increments have a strong following here. Most collectors who collect the lofty grades above MS64 prefer their coins to be "professionally graded". They either submit their own coins to be graded and slabbed, or buy slabbed coins that someoine else already submitted. You can chuckle at all this, but you don't have to agree with it or worry about it, because it apparently doesn't apply to collecting in the UK. Some people pay a lot of money for a coin with "purty colours", why? The £750 coin is nothing special, the buyer would be paying £375 for a bit of plastic, I doubt if it will find a UK buyer, if at all. Maybe not, but someone is wasting time if they're offering it at a truly inflated price. UK collectors make decisions the same as collectors everywhere else. If they all feel the way you do, the UK will be safe from the US slabber virus for awhile at least. I think that the majority do and I hope that we will. No UK collector has yet made made a post in support of slabbing UK coins. Two I think have cancelled their subscription the the dealer's auction catalogues, I have bought from them in the past but never again. If I were a UK collector living in the UK, I would probably avoid any slabbed coins in my area of specialization, too. But, living here in the US, find comfort in having my better type coins and all gold coins authenticated and slabbed for (my) posterity. I would not buy a copper coin in a slab because I don't like them that way in my collection. I collect US large cents, Conder Tokens, Hard Times Tokens, and similar US and foreign coppers, none of which is in a slab. I have no idea what constitutes a professional grader, as far as I know there are none in the UK. Going by the UK coins on ebay most of my coins are at least "EF". :-) Over here, it's usually a company that provides this service for a fee and then encapsulates the coin with the description. But I assume you already knew that. You may find it ironic that some of the most respected and capable US coin dealers will buy a raw coin at auction and then turn around and have it graded and slabbed for resale. Who do you trust anymore? Bruce |
#208
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"Ian" wrote in message ... Bruce Remick wrote: "Ian" wrote in message ... Bruce Remick wrote: Where there is competition, the cream will rise to the top, as it usually does. Here in Scotland the quaint old expression "sh*t floats" about sums that up. ;-) Dead bodies float, too. So do most ocean liners, sh*t, and cream. Gold and silver sinks. So do drowning living bodies, and sh*t (eventually). I don't know what any of this means but it doesn't sum up anything for me. Bruce Yep. Branding works. All slabbing companies would like you to make their particular brand of slabbing an integral part of your collecting habit. Fortunately (so far) those of us in the UK with a collecting habit are not having our addictions manipulated quite to the same extend as you guys are / have been. There simply hasn't been the same amount of marketing done over here. Then again, there isn't the same kind of money to be made from it to warrant heavy marketing over here either. The more faith you put in the slabbers the more power you give them to determine what `the market' will accept as being a moveable standard for grading and other conditions, thus sanctioning grade drift etcetera.... So while to you these slabbing companies are `the cream' to me they are as i've already described. I guess at the end of the day some collectors treat slabs like money. An idea backed by confidence. If the confidence is there, the slab has a perceived value. If the confidence goes, so does the perception of `value'. All down to `trust'. From what i've seen, `trust' is the last thing I would put on the`plus' side of slabbing, but that's just me. Billy and I have already discussed much of this here. Actually, slabbing is not as compelling here in the US as you folks seem to believe. Indeed much more so than in the UK, but certainly not universally accepted here. Regardless of how much faith one has in slabbed coins, it's hard to ignore when dealer lists and auction results show coins slabbed by ABCD selling for $30% more than identical graded coins not slabbed at all. We can all choose not to play the game, but it's hard not to take a peek once in a while. Everyone complains about grade creep, inconsistencies, etc. among grading services, but they still patronize these services. I certainly did not mean to imply that *all* grading services are "cream". I meant that the reputable ones will be the "cream" that rises to the top over time. Look at the blind confidence we place in whomever appraises and grades a diamond. Pure "trust" here for 99% of purchasers. And the diamond isn't even in a slab. Bruce |
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