Is it counterfeit?

A question was posed during a local Civil War discussion that I was
involved in which went unanswered. The topic of the state of
Louisiana's seizure of the U.S. Mint and its subsequent control by the
Confederate States of America beginning in January 1861 came up and it
was noted that mint personnel were forced to strike over two million
1861-O half dollars using the dies that had previously been used when
it was under Federal control. This raised the question of whether or
not the 1861-O half dollars are technically counterfeit since they
were not struck by the U.S. government or under its authority. Any
views?

1865 wrote:
A question was posed during a local Civil War discussion that I was
involved in which went unanswered. The topic of the state of
Louisiana's seizure of the U.S. Mint and its subsequent control by the
Confederate States of America beginning in January 1861 came up and it
was noted that mint personnel were forced to strike over two million
1861-O half dollars using the dies that had previously been used when
it was under Federal control. This raised the question of whether or
not the 1861-O half dollars are technically counterfeit since they
were not struck by the U.S. government or under its authority. Any
views?

The Confederacy considered itself a legitimate, soverign government when it
ordered the coins to be struck. Therefore, in the eyes of Confederacy and
its sympathizers, the coins were considered of the realm. In the eyes of
the Union and its sympathizers, they were considered counterfeit, or at
least illegitimate. The surrender at Appomattox did not end this dichotomy,
which lingers today, so it is my opinion that there is no answer that will
satisfy all. For better or for worse, the coins are a part of U.S. history
and numismatics, and that fact is more significant than any technicality
that might be raised.

James

"Mr. Jaggers" lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com wrote in message
...
1865 wrote:
A question was posed during a local Civil War discussion that I was
involved in which went unanswered. The topic of the state of
Louisiana's seizure of the U.S. Mint and its subsequent control by the
Confederate States of America beginning in January 1861 came up and it
was noted that mint personnel were forced to strike over two million
1861-O half dollars using the dies that had previously been used when
it was under Federal control. This raised the question of whether or
not the 1861-O half dollars are technically counterfeit since they
were not struck by the U.S. government or under its authority. Any
views?

The Confederacy considered itself a legitimate, soverign government when
it ordered the coins to be struck. Therefore, in the eyes of Confederacy
and its sympathizers, the coins were considered of the realm. In the eyes
of the Union and its sympathizers, they were considered counterfeit, or at
least illegitimate. The surrender at Appomattox did not end this
dichotomy, which lingers today, so it is my opinion that there is no
answer that will satisfy all. For better or for worse, the coins are a
part of U.S. history and numismatics, and that fact is more significant
than any technicality that might be raised.

James

I would think that the US Govt today would consider them to be in the same
category as early colonial coins, foreign silver, Civil War tokens, etc. --
non-government issues that were at one time accepted in commerce.

Other than noting that most of them were struck by the CSA, and they
have never been considered as counterfeits, not a lot more can be
added beyond speculation.


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"Frank" wrote in message
...
Other than noting that most of them were struck by the CSA, and they
have never been considered as counterfeits, not a lot more can be
added beyond speculation.

Never said they have been or would be considered counterfeit by the
government. Just non-governement issues that were used at various times in
this country. Like the other examples I listed, coins minted by the
Confederacy would not be considered legal tender today.

On Feb 25, 8:12*pm, "Bruce Remick" wrote:
"Frank" wrote in message

...

Other than noting that most of them were struck by the CSA, and they
have never been considered as counterfeits, not a lot more can be
added beyond speculation.

Never said they have been or would be considered counterfeit by the
government. *Just non-governement issues that were used at various times in
this country. *Like the other examples I listed, coins minted by the
Confederacy would not be considered legal tender today.



I want to thank those who responded. Bruce, you felt that the 1861-0's
might be viewed in the same light as colonial coinage or a non-
government issue. I searched the rcc archives on past counterfeit
discussions and through past posts was able to access the US Code
through Cornell University's site. My understanding of Title 18,
Part I, CHAPTER 25, prohibits "except under authority of the
Secretary of the Treasury or other proper officer of the United
States, any token, disk, or device in the likeness or similitude as to
design, color, or the inscription thereon of any of the coins of the
United States..." The 1861-0 is the exact "likeness" to other Seated
Liberty half dollars issued during that era, and they were minted and
distributed as money without the authority of the Federal government.
The way I interpret the code is that the 1861-0 half dollar is a
counterfeit. Am I correct or am I reading something into the law that
isn't there? By the way, most of my other compadres in our small local
Civil War roundtable disagree with me.

"1865" wrote in message
...
On Feb 25, 8:12 pm, "Bruce Remick" wrote:
"Frank" wrote in message

...

Other than noting that most of them were struck by the CSA, and they
have never been considered as counterfeits, not a lot more can be
added beyond speculation.

Never said they have been or would be considered counterfeit by the
government. Just non-governement issues that were used at various times in
this country. Like the other examples I listed, coins minted by the
Confederacy would not be considered legal tender today.



I want to thank those who responded. Bruce, you felt that the 1861-0's
might be viewed in the same light as colonial coinage or a non-
government issue. I searched the rcc archives on past counterfeit
discussions and through past posts was able to access the US Code
through Cornell University's site. My understanding of Title 18,
Part I, CHAPTER 25, prohibits "except under authority of the
Secretary of the Treasury or other proper officer of the United
States, any token, disk, or device in the likeness or similitude as to
design, color, or the inscription thereon of any of the coins of the
United States..." The 1861-0 is the exact "likeness" to other Seated
Liberty half dollars issued during that era, and they were minted and
distributed as money without the authority of the Federal government.
The way I interpret the code is that the 1861-0 half dollar is a
counterfeit. Am I correct or am I reading something into the law that
isn't there? By the way, most of my other compadres in our small local
Civil War roundtable disagree with me.
________________

You're not talking to a lawyer here. If you read something in the US Code
that you interpret one way and others interpret another, then I guess that
proves the US Code was written by lawyers who wanted to ensure their jobs.
If you can prove convincingly that a particular 1861-O half dollar did NOT
from the 330,000 struck under the Federal Government, then you have an
issue. Otherwise, I guess it can be a fun thing to debate.