1909 VDB DDO

Ira wrote:
On Oct 24, 6:55 pm, "Thomas A." wrote:
Thomas A. wrote:
Ira wrote:
On Oct 24, 4:24 am, "Thomas A." wrote:
Jim Menning wrote:
"Jim Menning" wrote in message
...

"Thomas A." wrote in message
m...
Check out this eBay item: 120480688551. Now look at the zoom of
LIBERTY picture. Yes, there is some doubling there on the I, B,
T, and Y.

Considering that it is not visible in the full obverse
photograph, I wonder if what you are seeing is a lighting
effect causing a reflection on the surface of the coin or the
inside of the slab window, not any actual doubling.

Maybe I'm not looking at this right. The doubling I first saw in
the zoomed version above the LIBERTY letters doesn't appear to be
obvious in the full obverse image, making me think that's not
what is actually doubled here. The letters B and R seem to have
something going on inside themselves. What exactly is doubled
here on this version that isn't likely a camera aberration?

Well, I just went to Heritage and looked at their DDO. It is
classified as FS-012.1 or FS-1102 so it's the same error but the
HA coin is a PCGS MS64. On their maximum view (the cent is 7.5
inches across) I can't see the doubling on the top of I, B, T and
Y (as I could on the eBay coin). I do see the lower loop of the B
and the loop of the R with something extra going on that you
mention. Which brings us back to the point of my original post
that you clipped.

We are way beyond an interesting or obvious "doubling" now. This
is not an exciting numismatic discovery. This is another way to
make a buck.

Hey, let's put a nifty sticker on it and jack it up another fifty
bucks.

You sound pretty jaded, Tom. Whatsa matter, wake up on thewrong
side of the bed?

The coin illustrated is clearly a doubled die 1909 VDB. It has
been a coin with major collector interest for many, many years and
has a 5 star collector interest rating in the Fivaz - Stanton
Cherry Picker's guide. The coin in that eBay auction is the major
die variety, with doubling only on the RTY of LIBERTY and the 190
of 1909 in the date.

If you are a member of PCGS Coin Facts, a subscription only
service, a large enlargement makes this clear. In MS-65 Rd only 18
examples have been graded and 10 more in 66Rd, with a single 67 Rd
shown in the PCGS image on their site.

It's nonsense to state that all coins with sufficient magnification
will show doubling of some sort. Don't think that hundreds of
thousands of 1909 VDBs haven't been scrutinized looking for the
doubling and te added value such doubling is worth to collectors.
Any doubled die must be seen with only 7X magnification and it is
not necesary for only naked eye doubling to be considered a true
or major variety. You might as well state that almost all the
Sheldon die varieties of large cents are of no additional value to
collectors, although for the rarer varities, you'd be dead wrong.
Recent large cent auctions have proven that again and again.

The coin in the eBay auction looks like a nice one ad the price
represents an excellent buy. With a lot of bottom fishers on eBay
looking for the buy of the century, however, it wouldn't surprise
me to have the auction expire with no takers. Most dealers of
quality cons have given up on eBay at this point, with very few
remaining. I'm still there, but I may reconsider if things don't
improve. eBay's insistence upon only PayPal fo payment as well as
significant boosts in final value fees makes eBay a marginal venue
for the higher value coins.

Ira

A reasonable counterpoint. However I believe that any potential
variety whose credibility relies upon a perhaps sage, yet still
somewhat arbitrary 7X magnification for validity has gone well
beyond the bounds of sensible delineation. This is not "just past"
naked-eye it, is seven times beyond it.

On one hand I do find it interesting that some of these coins
demonstrate this minimal variety, even noteworthy. On the other to
proclaim that a new, and by implication, important or in some way
meaningful numismatic specimen has been found stretches my sense of
believability. I see it as nothing more than another way to coerce
money out of collectors whose wallet has already been stressed by
the congnoscenti telling us what we should find important.

For the record I am an experienced numismatist, not a dealer and I
own an example of each of the Lincoln 1909 and 1909-S regular and
variety cents, all MS65RD or MS66RD and PCGS. I found the 1909-S/S a
barely acceptable stretch for my sensibilities and I find this
example to be beyond reasonable.

I can understand your defense of experienced and intelligent
numismatists who find the coin a viable variety, however I feel it
necessary that at this point we begin to question whether our love
for the hobby has driven us to seek that which simply does not
exist.

As long as I am at it, I object to you muddying the waters by
comparing Sheldon varieties with these modern mass-produced coins.
The difference between collecting large cents by Sheldon numbers, or
any other 19th century or earlier coin by true die variances, is
nothing at all like this hunting of minutiae I see over and over
again on modern coins.

The allure and numismatic delight in the varieties found by Sheldon
and others bring us back to a time of craftsmen with a definite
hands on approach to their art of coin producing. This is further
exemplified by a majority of collectors of the older Federal and
Colonial coppers, myself included, to prefer them unslabbed - to be
able to touch them and to feel their history and uniquness.

I am by no means dismissing the true varieties we find on the modern
coins and their more modern production methods; it is a fascinating
field of study, rather I am suggesting that we all take a step back
and make sure that we are comfortable with this ever-increasing
chant that these minimal varieties are important in any numismatic
way. They generate money, period. To price this coin at over ten
times the value of a coin without this variance is nothing more than
a game of Brinksmanship by those who like to play that game and
those who profit by it. For us as numismatists to give this sort of
behavior any numismatic validity by silently sitting and nodding
along as if we believe this is educationally significant is nothing
short of an embarassment to this honorable fiield of study.

Object all you like, Tom.

Doubling on a modern mass produced coin is still quite scarce for the
major varieties of Lincolns, including but not limited to, the 1909
VDB DDO, 1909 S/ horiz S, 1917 DDO, 1936 DDO Type 1, 1922 No D, 1941
DDO, 1943 D/D, 1944 D/S and of course the 1955 DDO, the newly
discovered ultra rare 1958 DDO, very rare 1969-S DDO, and 1972 DDO
Variety 1. These are all quite popular with collectors, and these
collectors may not be interested in the varieties of large cents, but
all can co-exsist without charges of fraud, greed or scamming. Who,
exactly, is making these large profits from what you consider these
"bogus" varieties? There are simply not enough of these around to
feather anyone's nest, except for the 1955 DDOs, 1972 DDOs and 1922 No
Ds. These are always around in quantity, but are popular with non
variety collectors as well, as the variety is clearly visible to the
naked eye. Stewart Blay, a well known collector paid $125,000 for a
1958 DDO cent a few years ago, the sole MS-65 known, and just tis
year, another in lesser grade changed hands by well known collector in
a lesser grade for $165,000 I'm told.These folks are no fools and most
would consider them knowledgeable numismatists. In fact, one of our
venerable curmudgeons on this forum just bought from me a real nice
1972 DDO cent. He's also a lover of large cents as well.

That's not the guy who lives over in East Kumquat, is it?

People can collect what they wish and what interests them. I don't
happen to personally like high grade MS-69 and MS-70 Mint mass
produced commemoratives or bullion coins as collectibles, but many
others do. So what? To each his own.

I think that observation is borne out by the wide variety of collecting
interests expressed in this newsgroup. Ac-cen-chu-ate the positive, say I!

Tom, you started this thread by belittling the 1909 VDB DDO in the
eBay auction. Just suck it up and move on.

I'm glad this topic came up, as I have been oblivious to this Lincoln
variety. The proliferation of numismatic research, plus the books and
articles it generates, keep this hobby young and vibrant. I don't have to
collect everything to appreciate the scholarship that has been done in areas
where I don't collect, which far outnumber those that I do collect.

James the Tentmaker

Bruce Remick wrote:
"Ira" wrote in message
...
On Oct 24, 6:55 pm, "Thomas A." wrote:
Thomas A. wrote:
Ira wrote:
On Oct 24, 4:24 am, "Thomas A." wrote:
Jim Menning wrote:
"Jim Menning" wrote in message
...

"Thomas A." wrote in message
m...
Check out this eBay item: 120480688551. Now look at the zoom of
LIBERTY picture. Yes, there is some doubling there on the I, B,
T, and Y.

Considering that it is not visible in the full obverse
photograph, I wonder if what you are seeing is a lighting
effect causing a reflection on the surface of the coin or the
inside of the slab window, not any actual doubling.

Maybe I'm not looking at this right. The doubling I first saw in
the zoomed version above the LIBERTY letters doesn't appear to be
obvious in the full obverse image, making me think that's not
what is actually doubled here. The letters B and R seem to have
something going on inside themselves. What exactly is doubled
here on this version that isn't likely a camera aberration?

Well, I just went to Heritage and looked at their DDO. It is
classified as FS-012.1 or FS-1102 so it's the same error but the
HA coin is a PCGS MS64. On their maximum view (the cent is 7.5
inches across) I can't see the doubling on the top of I, B, T and
Y (as I could on the eBay coin). I do see the lower loop of the B
and the loop of the R with something extra going on that you
mention. Which brings us back to the point of my original post
that you clipped.

We are way beyond an interesting or obvious "doubling" now. This
is not an exciting numismatic discovery. This is another way to
make a buck.

Hey, let's put a nifty sticker on it and jack it up another fifty
bucks.

You sound pretty jaded, Tom. Whatsa matter, wake up on thewrong
side of the bed?

The coin illustrated is clearly a doubled die 1909 VDB. It has
been a coin with major collector interest for many, many years and
has a 5 star collector interest rating in the Fivaz - Stanton
Cherry Picker's guide. The coin in that eBay auction is the major
die variety, with doubling only on the RTY of LIBERTY and the 190
of 1909 in the date.

If you are a member of PCGS Coin Facts, a subscription only
service, a large enlargement makes this clear. In MS-65 Rd only 18
examples have been graded and 10 more in 66Rd, with a single 67 Rd
shown in the PCGS image on their site.

It's nonsense to state that all coins with sufficient magnification
will show doubling of some sort. Don't think that hundreds of
thousands of 1909 VDBs haven't been scrutinized looking for the
doubling and te added value such doubling is worth to collectors.
Any doubled die must be seen with only 7X magnification and it is
not necesary for only naked eye doubling to be considered a true
or major variety. You might as well state that almost all the
Sheldon die varieties of large cents are of no additional value to
collectors, although for the rarer varities, you'd be dead wrong.
Recent large cent auctions have proven that again and again.

The coin in the eBay auction looks like a nice one ad the price
represents an excellent buy. With a lot of bottom fishers on eBay
looking for the buy of the century, however, it wouldn't surprise
me to have the auction expire with no takers. Most dealers of
quality cons have given up on eBay at this point, with very few
remaining. I'm still there, but I may reconsider if things don't
improve. eBay's insistence upon only PayPal fo payment as well as
significant boosts in final value fees makes eBay a marginal venue
for the higher value coins.

Ira

A reasonable counterpoint. However I believe that any potential
variety whose credibility relies upon a perhaps sage, yet still
somewhat arbitrary 7X magnification for validity has gone well
beyond the bounds of sensible delineation. This is not "just past"
naked-eye it, is seven times beyond it.

On one hand I do find it interesting that some of these coins
demonstrate this minimal variety, even noteworthy. On the other to
proclaim that a new, and by implication, important or in some way
meaningful numismatic specimen has been found stretches my sense of
believability. I see it as nothing more than another way to coerce
money out of collectors whose wallet has already been stressed by
the congnoscenti telling us what we should find important.

For the record I am an experienced numismatist, not a dealer and I
own an example of each of the Lincoln 1909 and 1909-S regular and
variety cents, all MS65RD or MS66RD and PCGS. I found the 1909-S/S a
barely acceptable stretch for my sensibilities and I find this
example to be beyond reasonable.

I can understand your defense of experienced and intelligent
numismatists who find the coin a viable variety, however I feel it
necessary that at this point we begin to question whether our love
for the hobby has driven us to seek that which simply does not
exist.

As long as I am at it, I object to you muddying the waters by
comparing Sheldon varieties with these modern mass-produced coins.
The difference between collecting large cents by Sheldon numbers, or
any other 19th century
or earlier coin by true die variances, is nothing at all like this
hunting of minutiae I see over and over again on modern coins.

The allure and numismatic delight in the varieties found by Sheldon
and others bring us back to a time of craftsmen with a definite
hands on approach to their art of coin producing. This is further
exemplified by a majority of collectors of the older Federal and
Colonial coppers, myself included, to prefer them unslabbed - to be
able to touch them and to feel their history and uniquness.

I am by no means dismissing the true varieties we find on the modern
coins and their more modern production methods; it is a fascinating
field of study, rather I am suggesting that we all take a step back
and make sure that we are comfortable with this ever-increasing
chant that these minimal varieties are important in any numismatic
way. They generate money, period.
To price this coin at over ten times the value of a coin without this
variance is nothing more than a game of Brinksmanship by those who
like to play that game and those who profit by it. For us as
numismatists to give this sort of behavior any numismatic validity
by silently sitting and nodding along as if we believe this is
educationally significant is nothing
short of an embarassment to this honorable fiield of study.

Object all you like, Tom.

Doubling on a modern mass produced coin is still quite scarce for the
major varieties of Lincolns, including but not limited to, the 1909
VDB DDO, 1909 S/ horiz S, 1917 DDO, 1936 DDO Type 1, 1922 No D, 1941
DDO, 1943 D/D, 1944 D/S and of course the 1955 DDO, the newly
discovered ultra rare 1958 DDO, very rare 1969-S DDO, and 1972 DDO
Variety 1. These are all quite popular with collectors, and these
collectors may not be interested in the varieties of large cents, but
all can co-exsist without charges of fraud, greed or scamming. Who,
exactly, is making these large profits from what you consider these
"bogus" varieties? There are simply not enough of these around to
feather anyone's nest, except for the 1955 DDOs, 1972 DDOs and 1922 No
Ds. These are always around in quantity, but are popular with non
variety collectors as well, as the variety is clearly visible to the
naked eye. Stewart Blay, a well known collector paid $125,000 for a
1958 DDO cent a few years ago, the sole MS-65 known, and just tis
year, another in lesser grade changed hands by well known collector in
a lesser grade for $165,000 I'm told.These folks are no fools and most
would consider them knowledgeable numismatists. In fact, one of our
venerable curmudgeons on this forum just bought from me a real nice
1972 DDO cent. He's also a lover of large cents as well.
_______________


Any collector who would pay $125,000 or $165,000 for any doubling on
a one dollar 1958 Lincoln Cent would be considered damn close to a
fool by most other collectors, and likely has never had to worry
where his next hundred grand was coming from.

Well, there *are* people like that, you know. I'm certainly not going to
sit around crying in my cheap beer because they can do it and I can't. As
far as that goes, I would surmise that I would be considered a damned fool
by "most" (virtually a meaningless term, thanks to 21st century politics)
other collectors because of my oddball collecting interests. And, I
suspect, so would you.

James the Tipler

Ira wrote:
On Oct 24, 6:55 pm, "Thomas A." wrote:
Thomas A. wrote:
Ira wrote:
On Oct 24, 4:24 am, "Thomas A." wrote:
Jim Menning wrote:
"Jim Menning" wrote in message
...

"Thomas A." wrote in message
m...
Check out this eBay item: 120480688551. Now look at the zoom of
LIBERTY picture. Yes, there is some doubling there on the I, B,
T, and Y.

Considering that it is not visible in the full obverse
photograph, I wonder if what you are seeing is a lighting
effect causing a reflection on the surface of the coin or the
inside of the slab window, not any actual doubling.

Maybe I'm not looking at this right. The doubling I first saw in
the zoomed version above the LIBERTY letters doesn't appear to be
obvious in the full obverse image, making me think that's not
what is actually doubled here. The letters B and R seem to have
something going on inside themselves. What exactly is doubled
here on this version that isn't likely a camera aberration?

Well, I just went to Heritage and looked at their DDO. It is
classified as FS-012.1 or FS-1102 so it's the same error but the
HA coin is a PCGS MS64. On their maximum view (the cent is 7.5
inches across) I can't see the doubling on the top of I, B, T and
Y (as I could on the eBay coin). I do see the lower loop of the B
and the loop of the R with something extra going on that you
mention. Which brings us back to the point of my original post
that you clipped.

We are way beyond an interesting or obvious "doubling" now. This
is not an exciting numismatic discovery. This is another way to
make a buck.

Hey, let's put a nifty sticker on it and jack it up another fifty
bucks.

You sound pretty jaded, Tom. Whatsa matter, wake up on thewrong
side of the bed?

The coin illustrated is clearly a doubled die 1909 VDB. It has
been a coin with major collector interest for many, many years and
has a 5 star collector interest rating in the Fivaz - Stanton
Cherry Picker's guide. The coin in that eBay auction is the major
die variety, with doubling only on the RTY of LIBERTY and the 190
of 1909 in the date.

If you are a member of PCGS Coin Facts, a subscription only
service, a large enlargement makes this clear. In MS-65 Rd only 18
examples have been graded and 10 more in 66Rd, with a single 67 Rd
shown in the PCGS image on their site.

It's nonsense to state that all coins with sufficient magnification
will show doubling of some sort. Don't think that hundreds of
thousands of 1909 VDBs haven't been scrutinized looking for the
doubling and te added value such doubling is worth to collectors.
Any doubled die must be seen with only 7X magnification and it is
not necesary for only naked eye doubling to be considered a true
or major variety. You might as well state that almost all the
Sheldon die varieties of large cents are of no additional value to
collectors, although for the rarer varities, you'd be dead wrong.
Recent large cent auctions have proven that again and again.

The coin in the eBay auction looks like a nice one ad the price
represents an excellent buy. With a lot of bottom fishers on eBay
looking for the buy of the century, however, it wouldn't surprise
me to have the auction expire with no takers. Most dealers of
quality cons have given up on eBay at this point, with very few
remaining. I'm still there, but I may reconsider if things don't
improve. eBay's insistence upon only PayPal fo payment as well as
significant boosts in final value fees makes eBay a marginal venue
for the higher value coins.

Ira

A reasonable counterpoint. However I believe that any potential
variety whose credibility relies upon a perhaps sage, yet still
somewhat arbitrary 7X magnification for validity has gone well
beyond the bounds of sensible delineation. This is not "just past"
naked-eye it, is seven times beyond it.

On one hand I do find it interesting that some of these coins
demonstrate this minimal variety, even noteworthy. On the other to
proclaim that a new, and by implication, important or in some way
meaningful numismatic specimen has been found stretches my sense of
believability. I see it as nothing more than another way to coerce
money out of collectors whose wallet has already been stressed by
the congnoscenti telling us what we should find important.

For the record I am an experienced numismatist, not a dealer and I
own an example of each of the Lincoln 1909 and 1909-S regular and
variety cents, all MS65RD or MS66RD and PCGS. I found the 1909-S/S a
barely acceptable stretch for my sensibilities and I find this
example to be beyond reasonable.

I can understand your defense of experienced and intelligent
numismatists who find the coin a viable variety, however I feel it
necessary that at this point we begin to question whether our love
for the hobby has driven us to seek that which simply does not
exist.

As long as I am at it, I object to you muddying the waters by
comparing Sheldon varieties with these modern mass-produced coins.
The difference between collecting large cents by Sheldon numbers, or
any other 19th century or earlier coin by true die variances, is
nothing at all like this hunting of minutiae I see over and over
again on modern coins.

The allure and numismatic delight in the varieties found by Sheldon
and others bring us back to a time of craftsmen with a definite
hands on approach to their art of coin producing. This is further
exemplified by a majority of collectors of the older Federal and
Colonial coppers, myself included, to prefer them unslabbed - to be
able to touch them and to feel their history and uniquness.

I am by no means dismissing the true varieties we find on the modern
coins and their more modern production methods; it is a fascinating
field of study, rather I am suggesting that we all take a step back
and make sure that we are comfortable with this ever-increasing
chant that these minimal varieties are important in any numismatic
way. They generate money, period. To price this coin at over ten
times the value of a coin without this variance is nothing more than
a game of Brinksmanship by those who like to play that game and
those who profit by it. For us as numismatists to give this sort of
behavior any numismatic validity by silently sitting and nodding
along as if we believe this is educationally significant is nothing
short of an embarassment to this honorable fiield of study.

Object all you like, Tom.

Doubling on a modern mass produced coin is still quite scarce for the
major varieties of Lincolns, including but not limited to, the 1909
VDB DDO, 1909 S/ horiz S, 1917 DDO, 1936 DDO Type 1, 1922 No D, 1941
DDO, 1943 D/D, 1944 D/S and of course the 1955 DDO, the newly
discovered ultra rare 1958 DDO, very rare 1969-S DDO, and 1972 DDO
Variety 1. These are all quite popular with collectors, and these
collectors may not be interested in the varieties of large cents, but
all can co-exsist without charges of fraud, greed or scamming. Who,
exactly, is making these large profits from what you consider these
"bogus" varieties? There are simply not enough of these around to
feather anyone's nest, except for the 1955 DDOs, 1972 DDOs and 1922 No
Ds. These are always around in quantity, but are popular with non
variety collectors as well, as the variety is clearly visible to the
naked eye. Stewart Blay, a well known collector paid $125,000 for a
1958 DDO cent a few years ago, the sole MS-65 known, and just tis
year, another in lesser grade changed hands by well known collector in
a lesser grade for $165,000 I'm told.These folks are no fools and most
would consider them knowledgeable numismatists. In fact, one of our
venerable curmudgeons on this forum just bought from me a real nice
1972 DDO cent. He's also a lover of large cents as well.

People can collect what they wish and what interests them. I don't
happen to personally like high grade MS-69 and MS-70 Mint mass
produced commemoratives or bullion coins as collectibles, but many
others do. So what? To each his own.

Tom, you started this thread by belittling the 1909 VDB DDO in the
eBay auction. Just suck it up and move on.

Ira

Charming sentiment. I've stated my viewpoint on this and you have stated
yours. Yeah, yeah, yeah...anybody can collect whatever they want. Just
don't try and impress me with the significance of these discoveries that
were somehow missed for a hundred years of numismatic scrutiny. One hundred
years of numismatic scrutiny.

I'll go "suck it up" now and move on. You go suck whatever you want.

Thomas A. wrote:
Ira wrote:
On Oct 24, 6:55 pm, "Thomas A." wrote:
Thomas A. wrote:
Ira wrote:
On Oct 24, 4:24 am, "Thomas A." wrote:
Jim Menning wrote:
"Jim Menning" wrote in message
...

"Thomas A." wrote in message
m...
Check out this eBay item: 120480688551. Now look at the zoom
of LIBERTY picture. Yes, there is some doubling there on the
I, B, T, and Y.

Considering that it is not visible in the full obverse
photograph, I wonder if what you are seeing is a lighting
effect causing a reflection on the surface of the coin or the
inside of the slab window, not any actual doubling.

Maybe I'm not looking at this right. The doubling I first saw in
the zoomed version above the LIBERTY letters doesn't appear to
be obvious in the full obverse image, making me think that's not
what is actually doubled here. The letters B and R seem to have
something going on inside themselves. What exactly is doubled
here on this version that isn't likely a camera aberration?

Well, I just went to Heritage and looked at their DDO. It is
classified as FS-012.1 or FS-1102 so it's the same error but the
HA coin is a PCGS MS64. On their maximum view (the cent is 7.5
inches across) I can't see the doubling on the top of I, B, T and
Y (as I could on the eBay coin). I do see the lower loop of the B
and the loop of the R with something extra going on that you
mention. Which brings us back to the point of my original post
that you clipped.

We are way beyond an interesting or obvious "doubling" now. This
is not an exciting numismatic discovery. This is another way to
make a buck.

Hey, let's put a nifty sticker on it and jack it up another fifty
bucks.

You sound pretty jaded, Tom. Whatsa matter, wake up on thewrong
side of the bed?

The coin illustrated is clearly a doubled die 1909 VDB. It has
been a coin with major collector interest for many, many years and
has a 5 star collector interest rating in the Fivaz - Stanton
Cherry Picker's guide. The coin in that eBay auction is the major
die variety, with doubling only on the RTY of LIBERTY and the 190
of 1909 in the date.

If you are a member of PCGS Coin Facts, a subscription only
service, a large enlargement makes this clear. In MS-65 Rd only 18
examples have been graded and 10 more in 66Rd, with a single 67 Rd
shown in the PCGS image on their site.

It's nonsense to state that all coins with sufficient
magnification will show doubling of some sort. Don't think that
hundreds of thousands of 1909 VDBs haven't been scrutinized
looking for the doubling and te added value such doubling is
worth to collectors. Any doubled die must be seen with only 7X
magnification and it is not necesary for only naked eye doubling
to be considered a true or major variety. You might as well state
that almost all the Sheldon die varieties of large cents are of
no additional value to collectors, although for the rarer
varities, you'd be dead wrong. Recent large cent auctions have
proven that again and again.

The coin in the eBay auction looks like a nice one ad the price
represents an excellent buy. With a lot of bottom fishers on eBay
looking for the buy of the century, however, it wouldn't surprise
me to have the auction expire with no takers. Most dealers of
quality cons have given up on eBay at this point, with very few
remaining. I'm still there, but I may reconsider if things don't
improve. eBay's insistence upon only PayPal fo payment as well as
significant boosts in final value fees makes eBay a marginal venue
for the higher value coins.

Ira

A reasonable counterpoint. However I believe that any potential
variety whose credibility relies upon a perhaps sage, yet still
somewhat arbitrary 7X magnification for validity has gone well
beyond the bounds of sensible delineation. This is not "just past"
naked-eye it, is seven times beyond it.

On one hand I do find it interesting that some of these coins
demonstrate this minimal variety, even noteworthy. On the other to
proclaim that a new, and by implication, important or in some way
meaningful numismatic specimen has been found stretches my sense of
believability. I see it as nothing more than another way to coerce
money out of collectors whose wallet has already been stressed by
the congnoscenti telling us what we should find important.

For the record I am an experienced numismatist, not a dealer and I
own an example of each of the Lincoln 1909 and 1909-S regular and
variety cents, all MS65RD or MS66RD and PCGS. I found the 1909-S/S
a barely acceptable stretch for my sensibilities and I find this
example to be beyond reasonable.

I can understand your defense of experienced and intelligent
numismatists who find the coin a viable variety, however I feel it
necessary that at this point we begin to question whether our love
for the hobby has driven us to seek that which simply does not
exist.

As long as I am at it, I object to you muddying the waters by
comparing Sheldon varieties with these modern mass-produced coins.
The difference between collecting large cents by Sheldon numbers, or
any other 19th century or earlier coin by true die variances, is
nothing at all like this hunting of minutiae I see over and over
again on modern coins.

The allure and numismatic delight in the varieties found by Sheldon
and others bring us back to a time of craftsmen with a definite
hands on approach to their art of coin producing. This is further
exemplified by a majority of collectors of the older Federal and
Colonial coppers, myself included, to prefer them unslabbed - to be
able to touch them and to feel their history and uniquness.

I am by no means dismissing the true varieties we find on the modern
coins and their more modern production methods; it is a fascinating
field of study, rather I am suggesting that we all take a step back
and make sure that we are comfortable with this ever-increasing
chant that these minimal varieties are important in any numismatic
way. They generate money, period. To price this coin at over ten
times the value of a coin without this variance is nothing more than
a game of Brinksmanship by those who like to play that game and
those who profit by it. For us as numismatists to give this sort of
behavior any numismatic validity by silently sitting and nodding
along as if we believe this is educationally significant is nothing
short of an embarassment to this honorable fiield of study.

Object all you like, Tom.

Doubling on a modern mass produced coin is still quite scarce for the
major varieties of Lincolns, including but not limited to, the 1909
VDB DDO, 1909 S/ horiz S, 1917 DDO, 1936 DDO Type 1, 1922 No D, 1941
DDO, 1943 D/D, 1944 D/S and of course the 1955 DDO, the newly
discovered ultra rare 1958 DDO, very rare 1969-S DDO, and 1972 DDO
Variety 1. These are all quite popular with collectors, and these
collectors may not be interested in the varieties of large cents, but
all can co-exsist without charges of fraud, greed or scamming. Who,
exactly, is making these large profits from what you consider these
"bogus" varieties? There are simply not enough of these around to
feather anyone's nest, except for the 1955 DDOs, 1972 DDOs and 1922
No Ds. These are always around in quantity, but are popular with non
variety collectors as well, as the variety is clearly visible to the
naked eye. Stewart Blay, a well known collector paid $125,000 for a
1958 DDO cent a few years ago, the sole MS-65 known, and just tis
year, another in lesser grade changed hands by well known collector
in a lesser grade for $165,000 I'm told.These folks are no fools and
most would consider them knowledgeable numismatists. In fact, one of
our venerable curmudgeons on this forum just bought from me a real
nice 1972 DDO cent. He's also a lover of large cents as well.

People can collect what they wish and what interests them. I don't
happen to personally like high grade MS-69 and MS-70 Mint mass
produced commemoratives or bullion coins as collectibles, but many
others do. So what? To each his own.

Tom, you started this thread by belittling the 1909 VDB DDO in the
eBay auction. Just suck it up and move on.

Ira

Charming sentiment. I've stated my viewpoint on this and you have
stated yours. Yeah, yeah, yeah...anybody can collect whatever they
want. Just don't try and impress me with the significance of these
discoveries that were somehow missed for a hundred years of
numismatic scrutiny. One hundred years of numismatic scrutiny.

I'll go "suck it up" now and move on. You go suck whatever you want.

Oh, dear.

"Mr. Jaggers" lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com wrote in message
...
Bruce Remick wrote:
"Ira" wrote in message
...
On Oct 24, 6:55 pm, "Thomas A." wrote:
Thomas A. wrote:
Ira wrote:
On Oct 24, 4:24 am, "Thomas A." wrote:
Jim Menning wrote:
"Jim Menning" wrote in message
...

"Thomas A." wrote in message
m...
Check out this eBay item: 120480688551. Now look at the zoom of
LIBERTY picture. Yes, there is some doubling there on the I, B,
T, and Y.

Considering that it is not visible in the full obverse
photograph, I wonder if what you are seeing is a lighting
effect causing a reflection on the surface of the coin or the
inside of the slab window, not any actual doubling.

Maybe I'm not looking at this right. The doubling I first saw in
the zoomed version above the LIBERTY letters doesn't appear to be
obvious in the full obverse image, making me think that's not
what is actually doubled here. The letters B and R seem to have
something going on inside themselves. What exactly is doubled
here on this version that isn't likely a camera aberration?

Well, I just went to Heritage and looked at their DDO. It is
classified as FS-012.1 or FS-1102 so it's the same error but the
HA coin is a PCGS MS64. On their maximum view (the cent is 7.5
inches across) I can't see the doubling on the top of I, B, T and
Y (as I could on the eBay coin). I do see the lower loop of the B
and the loop of the R with something extra going on that you
mention. Which brings us back to the point of my original post
that you clipped.

We are way beyond an interesting or obvious "doubling" now. This
is not an exciting numismatic discovery. This is another way to
make a buck.

Hey, let's put a nifty sticker on it and jack it up another fifty
bucks.

You sound pretty jaded, Tom. Whatsa matter, wake up on thewrong
side of the bed?

The coin illustrated is clearly a doubled die 1909 VDB. It has
been a coin with major collector interest for many, many years and
has a 5 star collector interest rating in the Fivaz - Stanton
Cherry Picker's guide. The coin in that eBay auction is the major
die variety, with doubling only on the RTY of LIBERTY and the 190
of 1909 in the date.

If you are a member of PCGS Coin Facts, a subscription only
service, a large enlargement makes this clear. In MS-65 Rd only 18
examples have been graded and 10 more in 66Rd, with a single 67 Rd
shown in the PCGS image on their site.

It's nonsense to state that all coins with sufficient magnification
will show doubling of some sort. Don't think that hundreds of
thousands of 1909 VDBs haven't been scrutinized looking for the
doubling and te added value such doubling is worth to collectors.
Any doubled die must be seen with only 7X magnification and it is
not necesary for only naked eye doubling to be considered a true
or major variety. You might as well state that almost all the
Sheldon die varieties of large cents are of no additional value to
collectors, although for the rarer varities, you'd be dead wrong.
Recent large cent auctions have proven that again and again.

The coin in the eBay auction looks like a nice one ad the price
represents an excellent buy. With a lot of bottom fishers on eBay
looking for the buy of the century, however, it wouldn't surprise
me to have the auction expire with no takers. Most dealers of
quality cons have given up on eBay at this point, with very few
remaining. I'm still there, but I may reconsider if things don't
improve. eBay's insistence upon only PayPal fo payment as well as
significant boosts in final value fees makes eBay a marginal venue
for the higher value coins.

Ira

A reasonable counterpoint. However I believe that any potential
variety whose credibility relies upon a perhaps sage, yet still
somewhat arbitrary 7X magnification for validity has gone well
beyond the bounds of sensible delineation. This is not "just past"
naked-eye it, is seven times beyond it.

On one hand I do find it interesting that some of these coins
demonstrate this minimal variety, even noteworthy. On the other to
proclaim that a new, and by implication, important or in some way
meaningful numismatic specimen has been found stretches my sense of
believability. I see it as nothing more than another way to coerce
money out of collectors whose wallet has already been stressed by
the congnoscenti telling us what we should find important.

For the record I am an experienced numismatist, not a dealer and I
own an example of each of the Lincoln 1909 and 1909-S regular and
variety cents, all MS65RD or MS66RD and PCGS. I found the 1909-S/S a
barely acceptable stretch for my sensibilities and I find this
example to be beyond reasonable.

I can understand your defense of experienced and intelligent
numismatists who find the coin a viable variety, however I feel it
necessary that at this point we begin to question whether our love
for the hobby has driven us to seek that which simply does not
exist.

As long as I am at it, I object to you muddying the waters by
comparing Sheldon varieties with these modern mass-produced coins.
The difference between collecting large cents by Sheldon numbers, or
any other 19th century
or earlier coin by true die variances, is nothing at all like this
hunting of minutiae I see over and over again on modern coins.

The allure and numismatic delight in the varieties found by Sheldon
and others bring us back to a time of craftsmen with a definite
hands on approach to their art of coin producing. This is further
exemplified by a majority of collectors of the older Federal and
Colonial coppers, myself included, to prefer them unslabbed - to be
able to touch them and to feel their history and uniquness.

I am by no means dismissing the true varieties we find on the modern
coins and their more modern production methods; it is a fascinating
field of study, rather I am suggesting that we all take a step back
and make sure that we are comfortable with this ever-increasing
chant that these minimal varieties are important in any numismatic
way. They generate money, period.
To price this coin at over ten times the value of a coin without this
variance is nothing more than a game of Brinksmanship by those who
like to play that game and those who profit by it. For us as
numismatists to give this sort of behavior any numismatic validity
by silently sitting and nodding along as if we believe this is
educationally significant is nothing
short of an embarassment to this honorable fiield of study.

Object all you like, Tom.

Doubling on a modern mass produced coin is still quite scarce for the
major varieties of Lincolns, including but not limited to, the 1909
VDB DDO, 1909 S/ horiz S, 1917 DDO, 1936 DDO Type 1, 1922 No D, 1941
DDO, 1943 D/D, 1944 D/S and of course the 1955 DDO, the newly
discovered ultra rare 1958 DDO, very rare 1969-S DDO, and 1972 DDO
Variety 1. These are all quite popular with collectors, and these
collectors may not be interested in the varieties of large cents, but
all can co-exsist without charges of fraud, greed or scamming. Who,
exactly, is making these large profits from what you consider these
"bogus" varieties? There are simply not enough of these around to
feather anyone's nest, except for the 1955 DDOs, 1972 DDOs and 1922 No
Ds. These are always around in quantity, but are popular with non
variety collectors as well, as the variety is clearly visible to the
naked eye. Stewart Blay, a well known collector paid $125,000 for a
1958 DDO cent a few years ago, the sole MS-65 known, and just tis
year, another in lesser grade changed hands by well known collector in
a lesser grade for $165,000 I'm told.These folks are no fools and most
would consider them knowledgeable numismatists. In fact, one of our
venerable curmudgeons on this forum just bought from me a real nice
1972 DDO cent. He's also a lover of large cents as well.
_______________


Any collector who would pay $125,000 or $165,000 for any doubling on
a one dollar 1958 Lincoln Cent would be considered damn close to a
fool by most other collectors, and likely has never had to worry
where his next hundred grand was coming from.

Well, there *are* people like that, you know. I'm certainly not going to
sit around crying in my cheap beer because they can do it and I can't. As
far as that goes, I would surmise that I would be considered a damned fool
by "most" (virtually a meaningless term, thanks to 21st century politics)
other collectors because of my oddball collecting interests. And, I
suspect, so would you.


The irony here is that the changing hands of that 1958 DDO probably would
not have rated any attention had it not been for the obscene price somebody
paid. If you or I were to spend $125,000 for a 1958 DDO Lincoln many of our
peers probably would consider us fools, with good reason, but not at all
because of our collecting interests, no matter how "oddball".

Bruce Remick wrote:
"Mr. Jaggers" lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com wrote in message
...
Bruce Remick wrote:
"Ira" wrote in message
...
On Oct 24, 6:55 pm, "Thomas A." wrote:
Thomas A. wrote:
Ira wrote:
On Oct 24, 4:24 am, "Thomas A." wrote:
Jim Menning wrote:
"Jim Menning" wrote in message
...

"Thomas A." wrote in message
m...
Check out this eBay item: 120480688551. Now look at the zoom
of LIBERTY picture. Yes, there is some doubling there on the
I, B, T, and Y.

Considering that it is not visible in the full obverse
photograph, I wonder if what you are seeing is a lighting
effect causing a reflection on the surface of the coin or the
inside of the slab window, not any actual doubling.

Maybe I'm not looking at this right. The doubling I first saw
in the zoomed version above the LIBERTY letters doesn't appear
to be obvious in the full obverse image, making me think
that's not what is actually doubled here. The letters B and R
seem to have something going on inside themselves. What
exactly is doubled here on this version that isn't likely a
camera aberration?

Well, I just went to Heritage and looked at their DDO. It is
classified as FS-012.1 or FS-1102 so it's the same error but the
HA coin is a PCGS MS64. On their maximum view (the cent is 7.5
inches across) I can't see the doubling on the top of I, B, T
and Y (as I could on the eBay coin). I do see the lower loop of
the B and the loop of the R with something extra going on that
you mention. Which brings us back to the point of my original
post that you clipped.

We are way beyond an interesting or obvious "doubling" now. This
is not an exciting numismatic discovery. This is another way to
make a buck.

Hey, let's put a nifty sticker on it and jack it up another
fifty bucks.

You sound pretty jaded, Tom. Whatsa matter, wake up on thewrong
side of the bed?

The coin illustrated is clearly a doubled die 1909 VDB. It has
been a coin with major collector interest for many, many years
and has a 5 star collector interest rating in the Fivaz - Stanton
Cherry Picker's guide. The coin in that eBay auction is the major
die variety, with doubling only on the RTY of LIBERTY and the 190
of 1909 in the date.

If you are a member of PCGS Coin Facts, a subscription only
service, a large enlargement makes this clear. In MS-65 Rd only
18 examples have been graded and 10 more in 66Rd, with a single
67 Rd shown in the PCGS image on their site.

It's nonsense to state that all coins with sufficient
magnification will show doubling of some sort. Don't think that
hundreds of thousands of 1909 VDBs haven't been scrutinized
looking for the doubling and te added value such doubling is
worth to collectors. Any doubled die must be seen with only 7X
magnification and it is not necesary for only naked eye doubling
to be considered a true or major variety. You might as well
state that almost all the Sheldon die varieties of large cents
are of no additional value to collectors, although for the rarer
varities, you'd be dead wrong. Recent large cent auctions have
proven that again and again.

The coin in the eBay auction looks like a nice one ad the price
represents an excellent buy. With a lot of bottom fishers on eBay
looking for the buy of the century, however, it wouldn't surprise
me to have the auction expire with no takers. Most dealers of
quality cons have given up on eBay at this point, with very few
remaining. I'm still there, but I may reconsider if things don't
improve. eBay's insistence upon only PayPal fo payment as well as
significant boosts in final value fees makes eBay a marginal
venue for the higher value coins.

Ira

A reasonable counterpoint. However I believe that any potential
variety whose credibility relies upon a perhaps sage, yet still
somewhat arbitrary 7X magnification for validity has gone well
beyond the bounds of sensible delineation. This is not "just past"
naked-eye it, is seven times beyond it.

On one hand I do find it interesting that some of these coins
demonstrate this minimal variety, even noteworthy. On the other to
proclaim that a new, and by implication, important or in some way
meaningful numismatic specimen has been found stretches my sense
of believability. I see it as nothing more than another way to
coerce money out of collectors whose wallet has already been
stressed by the congnoscenti telling us what we should find
important.

For the record I am an experienced numismatist, not a dealer and I
own an example of each of the Lincoln 1909 and 1909-S regular and
variety cents, all MS65RD or MS66RD and PCGS. I found the
1909-S/S a barely acceptable stretch for my sensibilities and I
find this example to be beyond reasonable.

I can understand your defense of experienced and intelligent
numismatists who find the coin a viable variety, however I feel it
necessary that at this point we begin to question whether our love
for the hobby has driven us to seek that which simply does not
exist.

As long as I am at it, I object to you muddying the waters by
comparing Sheldon varieties with these modern mass-produced coins.
The difference between collecting large cents by Sheldon numbers,
or any other 19th century
or earlier coin by true die variances, is nothing at all like this
hunting of minutiae I see over and over again on modern coins.

The allure and numismatic delight in the varieties found by Sheldon
and others bring us back to a time of craftsmen with a definite
hands on approach to their art of coin producing. This is further
exemplified by a majority of collectors of the older Federal and
Colonial coppers, myself included, to prefer them unslabbed - to be
able to touch them and to feel their history and uniquness.

I am by no means dismissing the true varieties we find on the
modern coins and their more modern production methods; it is a
fascinating field of study, rather I am suggesting that we all
take a step back and make sure that we are comfortable with this
ever-increasing chant that these minimal varieties are important
in any numismatic way. They generate money, period.
To price this coin at over ten times the value of a coin without
this variance is nothing more than a game of Brinksmanship by
those who like to play that game and those who profit by it. For
us as numismatists to give this sort of behavior any numismatic
validity by silently sitting and nodding along as if we believe
this is educationally significant is nothing
short of an embarassment to this honorable fiield of study.

Object all you like, Tom.

Doubling on a modern mass produced coin is still quite scarce for
the major varieties of Lincolns, including but not limited to, the
1909 VDB DDO, 1909 S/ horiz S, 1917 DDO, 1936 DDO Type 1, 1922 No
D, 1941 DDO, 1943 D/D, 1944 D/S and of course the 1955 DDO, the
newly discovered ultra rare 1958 DDO, very rare 1969-S DDO, and
1972 DDO Variety 1. These are all quite popular with collectors,
and these collectors may not be interested in the varieties of
large cents, but all can co-exsist without charges of fraud, greed
or scamming. Who, exactly, is making these large profits from what
you consider these "bogus" varieties? There are simply not enough
of these around to feather anyone's nest, except for the 1955 DDOs,
1972 DDOs and 1922 No Ds. These are always around in quantity, but
are popular with non variety collectors as well, as the variety is
clearly visible to the naked eye. Stewart Blay, a well known
collector paid $125,000 for a 1958 DDO cent a few years ago, the
sole MS-65 known, and just tis year, another in lesser grade
changed hands by well known collector in a lesser grade for
$165,000 I'm told.These folks are no fools and most would consider
them knowledgeable numismatists. In fact, one of our venerable
curmudgeons on this forum just bought from me a real nice 1972 DDO
cent. He's also a lover of large cents as well. _______________


Any collector who would pay $125,000 or $165,000 for any doubling on
a one dollar 1958 Lincoln Cent would be considered damn close to a
fool by most other collectors, and likely has never had to worry
where his next hundred grand was coming from.

Well, there *are* people like that, you know. I'm certainly not
going to sit around crying in my cheap beer because they can do it
and I can't. As far as that goes, I would surmise that I would be
considered a damned fool by "most" (virtually a meaningless term,
thanks to 21st century politics) other collectors because of my
oddball collecting interests. And, I suspect, so would you.


The irony here is that the changing hands of that 1958 DDO probably
would not have rated any attention had it not been for the obscene
price somebody paid. If you or I were to spend $125,000 for a 1958
DDO Lincoln many of our peers probably would consider us fools, with
good reason, but not at all because of our collecting interests, no
matter how "oddball".

The same paradigm that governs world news (if it bleeds, it leads, man bites
dog, Cubs win world series) also governs numismatic news. Your point?

Speaking only for myself, I collect for my own enjoyment, and care not a
whit what anybody thinks of me for doing it.

James the Fool

"Bruce Remick" wrote in message
...
Any collector who would pay $125,000 or $165,000 for any doubling on a one
dollar 1958 Lincoln Cent would be considered damn close to a fool by most
other collectors, and likely has never had to worry where his next hundred
grand was coming from.

I agree, it's ludicrous to spend that type of money for a modern die variety.
A fool and his money...

"Mr. Jaggers" lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com wrote in message
...


The irony here is that the changing hands of that 1958 DDO probably
would not have rated any attention had it not been for the obscene
price somebody paid. If you or I were to spend $125,000 for a 1958
DDO Lincoln many of our peers probably would consider us fools, with
good reason, but not at all because of our collecting interests, no
matter how "oddball".



The same paradigm that governs world news (if it bleeds, it leads, man
bites dog, Cubs win world series) also governs numismatic news. Your
point?

Today, money usually makes coin news. Not the coin itself. The lead
stories in the numismatic pubs typically tout the high price brought by the
latest rarity. Even the new owner is often anonymous. Few care in whose
collection the coin now resides, just the price it sold for. If the same
rarity was traded between two collectors, there likely would be no news to
report. If that rare large cent changed hands between two collectors
instead of selling at auction for over a million bucks, it would hardly make
a news ripple.


Speaking only for myself, I collect for my own enjoyment, and care not a
whit what anybody thinks of me for doing it.

I doubt there are many people who DO care about what others collect.
Likewise, few collectors care about what others might think of them, or they
never would have begun collecting whatever they collect. What WOULD raise
eyebrows would be news about a collector who paid $125,000 for a 1958 penny
that wasn't struck quite right, while coin dealers' junk boxes might contain
BU 50% offcenter 1958 pennies priced at five bucks. But, like you say, the
$125k buyer probably doesn't really care a whit.

Bruce Remick wrote:
"Mr. Jaggers" lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com wrote in message
...


The irony here is that the changing hands of that 1958 DDO probably
would not have rated any attention had it not been for the obscene
price somebody paid. If you or I were to spend $125,000 for a 1958
DDO Lincoln many of our peers probably would consider us fools, with
good reason, but not at all because of our collecting interests, no
matter how "oddball".



The same paradigm that governs world news (if it bleeds, it leads,
man bites dog, Cubs win world series) also governs numismatic news. Your
point?

Today, money usually makes coin news. Not the coin itself. The lead
stories in the numismatic pubs typically tout the high price brought
by the latest rarity. Even the new owner is often anonymous. Few
care in whose collection the coin now resides, just the price it sold
for. If the same rarity was traded between two collectors, there
likely would be no news to report. If that rare large cent changed
hands between two collectors instead of selling at auction for over a
million bucks, it would hardly make a news ripple.

And the reason for that is that it would be via private treaty, the
operative word being private. Private treaties have an annoying habit of
avoiding the bright lights. That's how rare coins can disappear for
generations before eventually surfacing again.

Speaking only for myself, I collect for my own enjoyment, and care
not a whit what anybody thinks of me for doing it.

I doubt there are many people who DO care about what others collect.

Your comments show that *you* care, otherwise, why bring any of this up?

Likewise, few collectors care about what others might think of them,
or they never would have begun collecting whatever they collect. What
WOULD raise eyebrows would be news about a collector who paid
$125,000 for a 1958 penny that wasn't struck quite right, while coin
dealers' junk boxes might contain BU 50% offcenter 1958 pennies
priced at five bucks. But, like you say, the $125k buyer probably
doesn't really care a whit.

In the eyes of the general, non-numismatic public, that DDO coin is no more
but no less important than an 1804 dollar or 1913 nickel. The public sale
at big hammer makes sudden impact, then the effects quickly taper off to
near zero before the next big news splash happens. Again, all this
posturing proves nothing. But, it's getting sleepy out, and as for my
posture, it will soon be supine. Zzzzzzz........

z............z....

On Oct 23, 10:42*pm, "Thomas A." wrote:
Check out this eBay item: 120480688551. *Now look at the zoom of LIBERTY
picture. *Yes, there is some doubling there on the I, B, T, and Y.

I think the fine line we didn't want to cross over variety overkill is
behind us. *I have little doubt that with sufficient magnification, great
optics and electronics we will be able to classify each and every coin as
its own unique variety. *Oh, bountiful joy. *Not.

I missed an important point about the coin in the eBay auction, and
one which I think others are apt to make as well. The MS 65 rd 1909
VDB in the auction is the FS 1102, which although has some elements if
the obverse doubled, the doubling is quite minimal, and the $6500 PCGS
Price Guide value the seller quotes is for the FS 1101 aka FS 012. The
one in the auction has a Price Guide value of $1500, not $6500. In
fact, the one in the auction cannot be accepted into the PCGS major
varity Lincoln set, as it's considered a minor variety.

I'll notify seller if this fact, but I doubt he'll change the
auction.

Ira