1909 VDB DDO

Check out this eBay item: 120480688551. Now look at the zoom of LIBERTY
picture. Yes, there is some doubling there on the I, B, T, and Y.

I think the fine line we didn't want to cross over variety overkill is
behind us. I have little doubt that with sufficient magnification, great
optics and electronics we will be able to classify each and every coin as
its own unique variety. Oh, bountiful joy. Not.

"Thomas A." wrote in message
m...
Check out this eBay item: 120480688551. Now look at the zoom of LIBERTY picture.
Yes, there is some doubling there on the I, B, T, and Y.



Considering that it is not visible in the full obverse photograph, I wonder if what
you are seeing is a lighting effect causing a reflection on the surface of the coin
or the inside of the slab window, not any actual doubling.

"Jim Menning" wrote in message
...

"Thomas A." wrote in message
m...
Check out this eBay item: 120480688551. Now look at the zoom of LIBERTY picture.
Yes, there is some doubling there on the I, B, T, and Y.



Considering that it is not visible in the full obverse photograph, I wonder if what
you are seeing is a lighting effect causing a reflection on the surface of the coin
or the inside of the slab window, not any actual doubling.


Maybe I'm not looking at this right. The doubling I first saw in the zoomed version
above the LIBERTY letters doesn't appear to be obvious in the full obverse image,
making me think that's not what is actually doubled here. The letters B and R seem
to have something going on inside themselves. What exactly is doubled here on this
version that isn't likely a camera aberration?

Jim Menning wrote:
"Jim Menning" wrote in message
...

"Thomas A." wrote in message
m...
Check out this eBay item: 120480688551. Now look at the zoom of
LIBERTY picture. Yes, there is some doubling there on the I, B, T,
and Y.

Considering that it is not visible in the full obverse photograph, I
wonder if what you are seeing is a lighting effect causing a
reflection on the surface of the coin or the inside of the slab
window, not any actual doubling.

Maybe I'm not looking at this right. The doubling I first saw in the
zoomed version above the LIBERTY letters doesn't appear to be obvious
in the full obverse image, making me think that's not what is
actually doubled here. The letters B and R seem to have something
going on inside themselves. What exactly is doubled here on this
version that isn't likely a camera aberration?

Well, I just went to Heritage and looked at their DDO. It is classified as
FS-012.1 or FS-1102 so it's the same error but the HA coin is a PCGS MS64.
On their maximum view (the cent is 7.5 inches across) I can't see the
doubling on the top of I, B, T and Y (as I could on the eBay coin). I do
see the lower loop of the B and the loop of the R with something extra going
on that you mention. Which brings us back to the point of my original post
that you clipped.

We are way beyond an interesting or obvious "doubling" now. This is not an
exciting numismatic discovery. This is another way to make a buck.

Hey, let's put a nifty sticker on it and jack it up another fifty bucks.

"Ira" wrote in message
...
On Oct 24, 4:24 am, "Thomas A." wrote:
Jim Menning wrote:
"Jim Menning" wrote in message
...

"Thomas A." wrote in message
news:ytidnSBFCct49H_XnZ2dnUVZ_g6dnZ2d@earthlink. com...
Check out this eBay item: 120480688551. Now look at the zoom of
LIBERTY picture. Yes, there is some doubling there on the I, B, T,
and Y.

Considering that it is not visible in the full obverse photograph, I
wonder if what you are seeing is a lighting effect causing a
reflection on the surface of the coin or the inside of the slab
window, not any actual doubling.

Maybe I'm not looking at this right. The doubling I first saw in the
zoomed version above the LIBERTY letters doesn't appear to be obvious
in the full obverse image, making me think that's not what is
actually doubled here. The letters B and R seem to have something
going on inside themselves. What exactly is doubled here on this
version that isn't likely a camera aberration?

Well, I just went to Heritage and looked at their DDO. It is classified as
FS-012.1 or FS-1102 so it's the same error but the HA coin is a PCGS MS64.
On their maximum view (the cent is 7.5 inches across) I can't see the
doubling on the top of I, B, T and Y (as I could on the eBay coin). I do
see the lower loop of the B and the loop of the R with something extra
going
on that you mention. Which brings us back to the point of my original post
that you clipped.

We are way beyond an interesting or obvious "doubling" now. This is not an
exciting numismatic discovery. This is another way to make a buck.

Hey, let's put a nifty sticker on it and jack it up another fifty bucks.


You sound pretty jaded, Tom. Whatsa matter, wake up on thewrong side
of the bed?

The coin illustrated is clearly a doubled die 1909 VDB. It has been a
coin with major collector interest for many, many years and has a 5
star collector interest rating in the Fivaz - Stanton Cherry Picker's
guide. The coin in that eBay auction is the major die variety, with
doubling only on the RTY of LIBERTY and the 190 of 1909 in the date.

If you are a member of PCGS Coin Facts, a subscription only service, a
large enlargement makes this clear. In MS-65 Rd only 18 examples have
been graded and 10 more in 66Rd, with a single 67 Rd shown in the PCGS
image on their site.

It's nonsense to state that all coins with sufficient magnification
will show doubling of some sort. Don't think that hundreds of
thousands of 1909 VDBs haven't been scrutinized looking for the
doubling and te added value such doubling is worth to collectors. Any
doubled die must be seen with only 7X magnification and it is not
necesary for only naked eye doubling to be considered a true or major
variety. You might as well state that almost all the Sheldon die
varieties of large cents are of no additional value to collectors,
although for the rarer varities, you'd be dead wrong. Recent large
cent auctions have proven that again and again.

The coin in the eBay auction looks like a nice one ad the price
represents an excellent buy. With a lot of bottom fishers on eBay
looking for the buy of the century, however, it wouldn't surprise me
to have the auction expire with no takers. Most dealers of quality
cons have given up on eBay at this point, with very few remaining. I'm
still there, but I may reconsider if things don't improve. eBay's
insistence upon only PayPal fo payment as well as significant boosts
in final value fees makes eBay a marginal venue for the higher value
coins.

Ira
_________________

Frome what I see, PayPal is still an "option". Many sellers state in their
description that they will take all kinds of payment and their auctions
aren't cancelled. The only thing different for sellers with the latest rule
changes is that thay HAVE to accept PayPal, although I have run across
numerous auctions that still say "Sorry, no PayPal." As long as PayPal is
more convenient for the bidder, most usually will opt for it. As a seller,
I still have to wait for the bidder to transmit the payment and for it to
clear my account so I can have access to it. Not much time difference from
a check or MO, but a bit more security.

I agree that the PayPal fees might just be the "straw" for some dealers who
feel they're getting "feed" to death using eBay. Still, unlike you, many
dealers don't get to major shows and will look to eBay as a means for
unloading slow stock ,the exposure of which otherwise might be at the mercy
of a curious showcase button-pusher at the shop.

Ira wrote:
On Oct 24, 4:24 am, "Thomas A." wrote:
Jim Menning wrote:
"Jim Menning" wrote in message
...

"Thomas A." wrote in message
m...
Check out this eBay item: 120480688551. Now look at the zoom of
LIBERTY picture. Yes, there is some doubling there on the I, B, T,
and Y.

Considering that it is not visible in the full obverse photograph,
I wonder if what you are seeing is a lighting effect causing a
reflection on the surface of the coin or the inside of the slab
window, not any actual doubling.

Maybe I'm not looking at this right. The doubling I first saw in the
zoomed version above the LIBERTY letters doesn't appear to be
obvious in the full obverse image, making me think that's not what
is actually doubled here. The letters B and R seem to have something
going on inside themselves. What exactly is doubled here on this
version that isn't likely a camera aberration?

Well, I just went to Heritage and looked at their DDO. It is
classified as FS-012.1 or FS-1102 so it's the same error but the HA
coin is a PCGS MS64. On their maximum view (the cent is 7.5 inches
across) I can't see the doubling on the top of I, B, T and Y (as I
could on the eBay coin). I do see the lower loop of the B and the
loop of the R with something extra going on that you mention. Which
brings us back to the point of my original post that you clipped.

We are way beyond an interesting or obvious "doubling" now. This is
not an exciting numismatic discovery. This is another way to make a
buck.

Hey, let's put a nifty sticker on it and jack it up another fifty
bucks.


You sound pretty jaded, Tom. Whatsa matter, wake up on thewrong side
of the bed?

The coin illustrated is clearly a doubled die 1909 VDB. It has been a
coin with major collector interest for many, many years and has a 5
star collector interest rating in the Fivaz - Stanton Cherry Picker's
guide. The coin in that eBay auction is the major die variety, with
doubling only on the RTY of LIBERTY and the 190 of 1909 in the date.

If you are a member of PCGS Coin Facts, a subscription only service, a
large enlargement makes this clear. In MS-65 Rd only 18 examples have
been graded and 10 more in 66Rd, with a single 67 Rd shown in the PCGS
image on their site.

It's nonsense to state that all coins with sufficient magnification
will show doubling of some sort. Don't think that hundreds of
thousands of 1909 VDBs haven't been scrutinized looking for the
doubling and te added value such doubling is worth to collectors. Any
doubled die must be seen with only 7X magnification and it is not
necesary for only naked eye doubling to be considered a true or major
variety. You might as well state that almost all the Sheldon die
varieties of large cents are of no additional value to collectors,
although for the rarer varities, you'd be dead wrong. Recent large
cent auctions have proven that again and again.

The coin in the eBay auction looks like a nice one ad the price
represents an excellent buy. With a lot of bottom fishers on eBay
looking for the buy of the century, however, it wouldn't surprise me
to have the auction expire with no takers. Most dealers of quality
cons have given up on eBay at this point, with very few remaining. I'm
still there, but I may reconsider if things don't improve. eBay's
insistence upon only PayPal fo payment as well as significant boosts
in final value fees makes eBay a marginal venue for the higher value
coins.

Ira

A reasonable counterpoint. However I believe that any potential variety
whose credibility relies upon a perhaps sage, yet still somewhat arbitrary
7X magnification for validity has gone well beyond the bounds of sensible
delineation. This is not "just past" naked-eye it, is seven times beyond
it.

On one hand I do find it interesting that some of these coins demonstrate
this minimal variety, even noteworthy. On the other to proclaim that a new,
and by implication, important or in some way meaningful numismatic specimen
has been found stretches my sense of believability. I see it as nothing
more than another way to coerce money out of collectors whose wallet has
already been stressed by the congnoscenti telling us what we should find
important.

For the record I am an experienced numismatist, not a dealer and I own an
example of each of the Lincoln 1909 and 1909-S regular and variety cents,
all MS65RD or MS66RD and PCGS. I found the 1909-S/S a barely acceptable
stretch for my sensibilities and I find this example to be beyond
reasonable.

I can understand your defense of experienced and intelligent numismatists
who find the coin a viable variety, however I feel it necessary that at this
point we begin to question whether our love for the hobby has driven us to
seek that which simply does not exist.

Thomas A. wrote:
Ira wrote:
On Oct 24, 4:24 am, "Thomas A." wrote:
Jim Menning wrote:
"Jim Menning" wrote in message
...

"Thomas A." wrote in message
m...
Check out this eBay item: 120480688551. Now look at the zoom of
LIBERTY picture. Yes, there is some doubling there on the I, B,
T, and Y.

Considering that it is not visible in the full obverse photograph,
I wonder if what you are seeing is a lighting effect causing a
reflection on the surface of the coin or the inside of the slab
window, not any actual doubling.

Maybe I'm not looking at this right. The doubling I first saw in
the zoomed version above the LIBERTY letters doesn't appear to be
obvious in the full obverse image, making me think that's not what
is actually doubled here. The letters B and R seem to have
something going on inside themselves. What exactly is doubled here
on this version that isn't likely a camera aberration?

Well, I just went to Heritage and looked at their DDO. It is
classified as FS-012.1 or FS-1102 so it's the same error but the HA
coin is a PCGS MS64. On their maximum view (the cent is 7.5 inches
across) I can't see the doubling on the top of I, B, T and Y (as I
could on the eBay coin). I do see the lower loop of the B and the
loop of the R with something extra going on that you mention. Which
brings us back to the point of my original post that you clipped.

We are way beyond an interesting or obvious "doubling" now. This is
not an exciting numismatic discovery. This is another way to make a
buck.

Hey, let's put a nifty sticker on it and jack it up another fifty
bucks.


You sound pretty jaded, Tom. Whatsa matter, wake up on thewrong side
of the bed?

The coin illustrated is clearly a doubled die 1909 VDB. It has been a
coin with major collector interest for many, many years and has a 5
star collector interest rating in the Fivaz - Stanton Cherry Picker's
guide. The coin in that eBay auction is the major die variety, with
doubling only on the RTY of LIBERTY and the 190 of 1909 in the date.

If you are a member of PCGS Coin Facts, a subscription only service,
a large enlargement makes this clear. In MS-65 Rd only 18 examples
have been graded and 10 more in 66Rd, with a single 67 Rd shown in
the PCGS image on their site.

It's nonsense to state that all coins with sufficient magnification
will show doubling of some sort. Don't think that hundreds of
thousands of 1909 VDBs haven't been scrutinized looking for the
doubling and te added value such doubling is worth to collectors. Any
doubled die must be seen with only 7X magnification and it is not
necesary for only naked eye doubling to be considered a true or major
variety. You might as well state that almost all the Sheldon die
varieties of large cents are of no additional value to collectors,
although for the rarer varities, you'd be dead wrong. Recent large
cent auctions have proven that again and again.

The coin in the eBay auction looks like a nice one ad the price
represents an excellent buy. With a lot of bottom fishers on eBay
looking for the buy of the century, however, it wouldn't surprise me
to have the auction expire with no takers. Most dealers of quality
cons have given up on eBay at this point, with very few remaining.
I'm still there, but I may reconsider if things don't improve. eBay's
insistence upon only PayPal fo payment as well as significant boosts
in final value fees makes eBay a marginal venue for the higher value
coins.

Ira

A reasonable counterpoint. However I believe that any potential
variety whose credibility relies upon a perhaps sage, yet still
somewhat arbitrary 7X magnification for validity has gone well beyond
the bounds of sensible delineation. This is not "just past"
naked-eye it, is seven times beyond it.

On one hand I do find it interesting that some of these coins
demonstrate this minimal variety, even noteworthy. On the other to
proclaim that a new, and by implication, important or in some way
meaningful numismatic specimen has been found stretches my sense of
believability. I see it as nothing more than another way to coerce
money out of collectors whose wallet has already been stressed by the
congnoscenti telling us what we should find important.

For the record I am an experienced numismatist, not a dealer and I
own an example of each of the Lincoln 1909 and 1909-S regular and
variety cents, all MS65RD or MS66RD and PCGS. I found the 1909-S/S a
barely acceptable stretch for my sensibilities and I find this
example to be beyond reasonable.

I can understand your defense of experienced and intelligent
numismatists who find the coin a viable variety, however I feel it
necessary that at this point we begin to question whether our love
for the hobby has driven us to seek that which simply does not exist.

As long as I am at it, I object to you muddying the waters by comparing
Sheldon varieties with these modern mass-produced coins. The difference
between collecting large cents by Sheldon numbers, or any other 19th century
or earlier coin by true die variances, is nothing at all like this hunting
of minutiae I see over and over again on modern coins.

The allure and numismatic delight in the varieties found by Sheldon and
others bring us back to a time of craftsmen with a definite hands on
approach to their art of coin producing. This is further exemplified by a
majority of collectors of the older Federal and Colonial coppers, myself
included, to prefer them unslabbed - to be able to touch them and to feel
their history and uniquness.

I am by no means dismissing the true varieties we find on the modern coins
and their more modern production methods; it is a fascinating field of
study, rather I am suggesting that we all take a step back and make sure
that we are comfortable with this ever-increasing chant that these minimal
varieties are important in any numismatic way. They generate money, period.
To price this coin at over ten times the value of a coin without this
variance is nothing more than a game of Brinksmanship by those who like to
play that game and those who profit by it. For us as numismatists to give
this sort of behavior any numismatic validity by silently sitting and
nodding along as if we believe this is educationally significant is nothing
short of an embarassment to this honorable fiield of study.

On Oct 24, 6:55*pm, "Thomas A." wrote:
Thomas A. wrote:
Ira wrote:
On Oct 24, 4:24 am, "Thomas A." wrote:
Jim Menning wrote:
"Jim Menning" wrote in message
...

"Thomas A." wrote in message
news:ytidnSBFCct49H_XnZ2dnUVZ_g6dnZ2d@earthli nk.com...
Check out this eBay item: 120480688551. Now look at the zoom of
LIBERTY picture. Yes, there is some doubling there on the I, B,
T, and Y.

Considering that it is not visible in the full obverse photograph,
I wonder if what you are seeing is a lighting effect causing a
reflection on the surface of the coin or the inside of the slab
window, not any actual doubling.

Maybe I'm not looking at this right. The doubling I first saw in
the zoomed version above the LIBERTY letters doesn't appear to be
obvious in the full obverse image, making me think that's not what
is actually doubled here. The letters B and R seem to have
something going on inside themselves. What exactly is doubled here
on this version that isn't likely a camera aberration?

Well, I just went to Heritage and looked at their DDO. It is
classified as FS-012.1 or FS-1102 so it's the same error but the HA
coin is a PCGS MS64. On their maximum view (the cent is 7.5 inches
across) I can't see the doubling on the top of I, B, T and Y (as I
could on the eBay coin). I do see the lower loop of the B and the
loop of the R with something extra going on that you mention. Which
brings us back to the point of my original post that you clipped.

We are way beyond an interesting or obvious "doubling" now. This is
not an exciting numismatic discovery. This is another way to make a
buck.

Hey, let's put a nifty sticker on it and jack it up another fifty
bucks.

You sound pretty jaded, Tom. Whatsa matter, wake up on thewrong side
of the bed?

The coin illustrated is clearly a doubled die 1909 VDB. It has been a
coin with major collector interest for many, many years and has a 5
star collector interest rating in the Fivaz - Stanton Cherry Picker's
guide. The coin in that eBay auction is the major die variety, with
doubling only on the RTY of LIBERTY and the 190 of 1909 in the date.

If you are a member of PCGS Coin Facts, a subscription only service,
a large enlargement makes this clear. In MS-65 Rd only 18 examples
have been graded and 10 more in 66Rd, with a single 67 Rd shown in
the PCGS image on their site.

It's nonsense to state that all coins with sufficient magnification
will show doubling of some sort. Don't think that hundreds of
thousands of 1909 VDBs haven't been scrutinized looking for the
doubling and te added value such doubling is worth to collectors. Any
doubled die must be seen with only 7X magnification and it is not
necesary for only naked eye doubling to be considered a true or major
variety. You might as well state that almost all the Sheldon die
varieties of large cents are of no additional value to collectors,
although for the rarer varities, you'd be dead wrong. Recent large
cent auctions have proven that again and again.

The coin in the eBay auction looks like a nice one ad the price
represents an excellent buy. With a lot of bottom fishers on eBay
looking for the buy of the century, however, it wouldn't surprise me
to have the auction expire with no takers. Most dealers of quality
cons have given up on eBay at this point, with very few remaining.
I'm still there, but I may reconsider if things don't improve. eBay's
insistence upon only PayPal fo payment as well as significant boosts
in final value fees makes eBay a marginal venue for the higher value
coins.

Ira

A reasonable counterpoint. *However I believe that any potential
variety whose credibility relies upon a perhaps sage, yet still
somewhat arbitrary 7X magnification for validity has gone well beyond
the bounds of sensible delineation. *This is not "just past"
naked-eye it, is seven times beyond it.

On one hand I do find it interesting that some of these coins
demonstrate this minimal variety, even noteworthy. *On the other to
proclaim that a new, and by implication, important or in some way
meaningful numismatic specimen has been found stretches my sense of
believability. *I see it as nothing more than another way to coerce
money out of collectors whose wallet has already been stressed by the
congnoscenti telling us what we should find important.

For the record I am an experienced numismatist, not a dealer and I
own an example of each of the Lincoln 1909 and 1909-S regular and
variety cents, all MS65RD or MS66RD and PCGS. *I found the 1909-S/S a
barely acceptable stretch for my sensibilities and I find this
example to be beyond reasonable.

I can understand your defense of experienced and intelligent
numismatists who find the coin a viable variety, however I feel it
necessary that at this point we begin to question whether our love
for the hobby has driven us to seek that which simply does not exist.

As long as I am at it, I object to you muddying the waters by comparing
Sheldon varieties with these modern mass-produced coins. *The difference
between collecting large cents by Sheldon numbers, or any other 19th century
or earlier coin by true die variances, is nothing at all like this hunting
of minutiae I see over and over again on modern coins.

The allure and numismatic delight in the varieties found by Sheldon and
others bring us back to a time of craftsmen with a definite hands on
approach to their art of coin producing. *This is further exemplified by a
majority of collectors of the older Federal and Colonial coppers, myself
included, *to prefer them unslabbed - to be able to touch them and to feel
their history and uniquness.

I am by no means dismissing the true varieties we find on the modern coins
and their more modern production methods; it is a fascinating field of
study, rather I am suggesting that we all take a step back and make sure
that we are comfortable with this ever-increasing chant that these minimal
varieties are important in any numismatic way. *They generate money, period.
To price this coin at over ten times the value of a coin without this
variance is nothing more than a game of Brinksmanship by those who like to
play that game and those who profit by it. *For us as numismatists to give
this sort of behavior any numismatic validity by silently sitting and
nodding along as if we believe this is educationally significant is nothing
short of an embarassment to this honorable fiield of study.

Object all you like, Tom.

Doubling on a modern mass produced coin is still quite scarce for the
major varieties of Lincolns, including but not limited to, the 1909
VDB DDO, 1909 S/ horiz S, 1917 DDO, 1936 DDO Type 1, 1922 No D, 1941
DDO, 1943 D/D, 1944 D/S and of course the 1955 DDO, the newly
discovered ultra rare 1958 DDO, very rare 1969-S DDO, and 1972 DDO
Variety 1. These are all quite popular with collectors, and these
collectors may not be interested in the varieties of large cents, but
all can co-exsist without charges of fraud, greed or scamming. Who,
exactly, is making these large profits from what you consider these
"bogus" varieties? There are simply not enough of these around to
feather anyone's nest, except for the 1955 DDOs, 1972 DDOs and 1922 No
Ds. These are always around in quantity, but are popular with non
variety collectors as well, as the variety is clearly visible to the
naked eye. Stewart Blay, a well known collector paid $125,000 for a
1958 DDO cent a few years ago, the sole MS-65 known, and just tis
year, another in lesser grade changed hands by well known collector in
a lesser grade for $165,000 I'm told.These folks are no fools and most
would consider them knowledgeable numismatists. In fact, one of our
venerable curmudgeons on this forum just bought from me a real nice
1972 DDO cent. He's also a lover of large cents as well.

People can collect what they wish and what interests them. I don't
happen to personally like high grade MS-69 and MS-70 Mint mass
produced commemoratives or bullion coins as collectibles, but many
others do. So what? To each his own.

Tom, you started this thread by belittling the 1909 VDB DDO in the
eBay auction. Just suck it up and move on.

Ira

Thomas A. wrote:
Thomas A. wrote:
Ira wrote:
On Oct 24, 4:24 am, "Thomas A." wrote:
Jim Menning wrote:
"Jim Menning" wrote in message
...

"Thomas A." wrote in message
m...
Check out this eBay item: 120480688551. Now look at the zoom of
LIBERTY picture. Yes, there is some doubling there on the I, B,
T, and Y.

Considering that it is not visible in the full obverse
photograph, I wonder if what you are seeing is a lighting effect
causing a reflection on the surface of the coin or the inside of
the slab window, not any actual doubling.

Maybe I'm not looking at this right. The doubling I first saw in
the zoomed version above the LIBERTY letters doesn't appear to be
obvious in the full obverse image, making me think that's not what
is actually doubled here. The letters B and R seem to have
something going on inside themselves. What exactly is doubled here
on this version that isn't likely a camera aberration?

Well, I just went to Heritage and looked at their DDO. It is
classified as FS-012.1 or FS-1102 so it's the same error but the HA
coin is a PCGS MS64. On their maximum view (the cent is 7.5 inches
across) I can't see the doubling on the top of I, B, T and Y (as I
could on the eBay coin). I do see the lower loop of the B and the
loop of the R with something extra going on that you mention. Which
brings us back to the point of my original post that you clipped.

We are way beyond an interesting or obvious "doubling" now. This is
not an exciting numismatic discovery. This is another way to make a
buck.

Hey, let's put a nifty sticker on it and jack it up another fifty
bucks.


You sound pretty jaded, Tom. Whatsa matter, wake up on thewrong side
of the bed?

The coin illustrated is clearly a doubled die 1909 VDB. It has been
a coin with major collector interest for many, many years and has a
5 star collector interest rating in the Fivaz - Stanton Cherry
Picker's guide. The coin in that eBay auction is the major die
variety, with doubling only on the RTY of LIBERTY and the 190 of
1909 in the date. If you are a member of PCGS Coin Facts, a subscription
only service,
a large enlargement makes this clear. In MS-65 Rd only 18 examples
have been graded and 10 more in 66Rd, with a single 67 Rd shown in
the PCGS image on their site.

It's nonsense to state that all coins with sufficient magnification
will show doubling of some sort. Don't think that hundreds of
thousands of 1909 VDBs haven't been scrutinized looking for the
doubling and te added value such doubling is worth to collectors.
Any doubled die must be seen with only 7X magnification and it is
not necesary for only naked eye doubling to be considered a true or
major variety. You might as well state that almost all the Sheldon
die varieties of large cents are of no additional value to
collectors, although for the rarer varities, you'd be dead wrong.
Recent large cent auctions have proven that again and again.

The coin in the eBay auction looks like a nice one ad the price
represents an excellent buy. With a lot of bottom fishers on eBay
looking for the buy of the century, however, it wouldn't surprise me
to have the auction expire with no takers. Most dealers of quality
cons have given up on eBay at this point, with very few remaining.
I'm still there, but I may reconsider if things don't improve.
eBay's insistence upon only PayPal fo payment as well as
significant boosts in final value fees makes eBay a marginal venue
for the higher value coins.

Ira

A reasonable counterpoint. However I believe that any potential
variety whose credibility relies upon a perhaps sage, yet still
somewhat arbitrary 7X magnification for validity has gone well beyond
the bounds of sensible delineation. This is not "just past"
naked-eye it, is seven times beyond it.

On one hand I do find it interesting that some of these coins
demonstrate this minimal variety, even noteworthy. On the other to
proclaim that a new, and by implication, important or in some way
meaningful numismatic specimen has been found stretches my sense of
believability. I see it as nothing more than another way to coerce
money out of collectors whose wallet has already been stressed by the
congnoscenti telling us what we should find important.

For the record I am an experienced numismatist, not a dealer and I
own an example of each of the Lincoln 1909 and 1909-S regular and
variety cents, all MS65RD or MS66RD and PCGS. I found the 1909-S/S a
barely acceptable stretch for my sensibilities and I find this
example to be beyond reasonable.

I can understand your defense of experienced and intelligent
numismatists who find the coin a viable variety, however I feel it
necessary that at this point we begin to question whether our love
for the hobby has driven us to seek that which simply does not exist.

As long as I am at it, I object to you muddying the waters by
comparing Sheldon varieties with these modern mass-produced coins. The
difference between collecting large cents by Sheldon numbers, or
any other 19th century or earlier coin by true die variances, is
nothing at all like this hunting of minutiae I see over and over
again on modern coins.
The allure and numismatic delight in the varieties found by Sheldon
and others bring us back to a time of craftsmen with a definite hands
on approach to their art of coin producing. This is further
exemplified by a majority of collectors of the older Federal and
Colonial coppers, myself included, to prefer them unslabbed - to be
able to touch them and to feel their history and uniquness.

I am by no means dismissing the true varieties we find on the modern
coins and their more modern production methods; it is a fascinating
field of study, rather I am suggesting that we all take a step back
and make sure that we are comfortable with this ever-increasing chant
that these minimal varieties are important in any numismatic way. They
generate money, period. To price this coin at over ten times the
value of a coin without this variance is nothing more than a game of
Brinksmanship by those who like to play that game and those who
profit by it. For us as numismatists to give this sort of behavior
any numismatic validity by silently sitting and nodding along as if
we believe this is educationally significant is nothing short of an
embarassment to this honorable fiield of study.

Hey, I've got an idea! I'm surprised no one has ever thought of this
before, but here it is: Everybody collect what he likes, what affords him
pleasure in a world largely bereft of pleasure, what provides him
entertainment, diversion, education, and camaraderie, and do it without
denigrating the numismatic tastes of another collector. No, wait, that
would just never work, let's just fling brickbats at each other and maintain
that great, time-tested tradition of our hobby.

James the Catapult Master

"Ira" wrote in message
...
On Oct 24, 6:55 pm, "Thomas A." wrote:
Thomas A. wrote:
Ira wrote:
On Oct 24, 4:24 am, "Thomas A." wrote:
Jim Menning wrote:
"Jim Menning" wrote in message
...

"Thomas A." wrote in message
news:ytidnSBFCct49H_XnZ2dnUVZ_g6dnZ2d@earthli nk.com...
Check out this eBay item: 120480688551. Now look at the zoom of
LIBERTY picture. Yes, there is some doubling there on the I, B,
T, and Y.

Considering that it is not visible in the full obverse photograph,
I wonder if what you are seeing is a lighting effect causing a
reflection on the surface of the coin or the inside of the slab
window, not any actual doubling.

Maybe I'm not looking at this right. The doubling I first saw in
the zoomed version above the LIBERTY letters doesn't appear to be
obvious in the full obverse image, making me think that's not what
is actually doubled here. The letters B and R seem to have
something going on inside themselves. What exactly is doubled here
on this version that isn't likely a camera aberration?

Well, I just went to Heritage and looked at their DDO. It is
classified as FS-012.1 or FS-1102 so it's the same error but the HA
coin is a PCGS MS64. On their maximum view (the cent is 7.5 inches
across) I can't see the doubling on the top of I, B, T and Y (as I
could on the eBay coin). I do see the lower loop of the B and the
loop of the R with something extra going on that you mention. Which
brings us back to the point of my original post that you clipped.

We are way beyond an interesting or obvious "doubling" now. This is
not an exciting numismatic discovery. This is another way to make a
buck.

Hey, let's put a nifty sticker on it and jack it up another fifty
bucks.

You sound pretty jaded, Tom. Whatsa matter, wake up on thewrong side
of the bed?

The coin illustrated is clearly a doubled die 1909 VDB. It has been a
coin with major collector interest for many, many years and has a 5
star collector interest rating in the Fivaz - Stanton Cherry Picker's
guide. The coin in that eBay auction is the major die variety, with
doubling only on the RTY of LIBERTY and the 190 of 1909 in the date.

If you are a member of PCGS Coin Facts, a subscription only service,
a large enlargement makes this clear. In MS-65 Rd only 18 examples
have been graded and 10 more in 66Rd, with a single 67 Rd shown in
the PCGS image on their site.

It's nonsense to state that all coins with sufficient magnification
will show doubling of some sort. Don't think that hundreds of
thousands of 1909 VDBs haven't been scrutinized looking for the
doubling and te added value such doubling is worth to collectors. Any
doubled die must be seen with only 7X magnification and it is not
necesary for only naked eye doubling to be considered a true or major
variety. You might as well state that almost all the Sheldon die
varieties of large cents are of no additional value to collectors,
although for the rarer varities, you'd be dead wrong. Recent large
cent auctions have proven that again and again.

The coin in the eBay auction looks like a nice one ad the price
represents an excellent buy. With a lot of bottom fishers on eBay
looking for the buy of the century, however, it wouldn't surprise me
to have the auction expire with no takers. Most dealers of quality
cons have given up on eBay at this point, with very few remaining.
I'm still there, but I may reconsider if things don't improve. eBay's
insistence upon only PayPal fo payment as well as significant boosts
in final value fees makes eBay a marginal venue for the higher value
coins.

Ira

A reasonable counterpoint. However I believe that any potential
variety whose credibility relies upon a perhaps sage, yet still
somewhat arbitrary 7X magnification for validity has gone well beyond
the bounds of sensible delineation. This is not "just past"
naked-eye it, is seven times beyond it.

On one hand I do find it interesting that some of these coins
demonstrate this minimal variety, even noteworthy. On the other to
proclaim that a new, and by implication, important or in some way
meaningful numismatic specimen has been found stretches my sense of
believability. I see it as nothing more than another way to coerce
money out of collectors whose wallet has already been stressed by the
congnoscenti telling us what we should find important.

For the record I am an experienced numismatist, not a dealer and I
own an example of each of the Lincoln 1909 and 1909-S regular and
variety cents, all MS65RD or MS66RD and PCGS. I found the 1909-S/S a
barely acceptable stretch for my sensibilities and I find this
example to be beyond reasonable.

I can understand your defense of experienced and intelligent
numismatists who find the coin a viable variety, however I feel it
necessary that at this point we begin to question whether our love
for the hobby has driven us to seek that which simply does not exist.

As long as I am at it, I object to you muddying the waters by comparing
Sheldon varieties with these modern mass-produced coins. The difference
between collecting large cents by Sheldon numbers, or any other 19th
century
or earlier coin by true die variances, is nothing at all like this hunting
of minutiae I see over and over again on modern coins.

The allure and numismatic delight in the varieties found by Sheldon and
others bring us back to a time of craftsmen with a definite hands on
approach to their art of coin producing. This is further exemplified by a
majority of collectors of the older Federal and Colonial coppers, myself
included, to prefer them unslabbed - to be able to touch them and to feel
their history and uniquness.

I am by no means dismissing the true varieties we find on the modern coins
and their more modern production methods; it is a fascinating field of
study, rather I am suggesting that we all take a step back and make sure
that we are comfortable with this ever-increasing chant that these minimal
varieties are important in any numismatic way. They generate money,
period.
To price this coin at over ten times the value of a coin without this
variance is nothing more than a game of Brinksmanship by those who like to
play that game and those who profit by it. For us as numismatists to give
this sort of behavior any numismatic validity by silently sitting and
nodding along as if we believe this is educationally significant is
nothing
short of an embarassment to this honorable fiield of study.

Object all you like, Tom.

Doubling on a modern mass produced coin is still quite scarce for the
major varieties of Lincolns, including but not limited to, the 1909
VDB DDO, 1909 S/ horiz S, 1917 DDO, 1936 DDO Type 1, 1922 No D, 1941
DDO, 1943 D/D, 1944 D/S and of course the 1955 DDO, the newly
discovered ultra rare 1958 DDO, very rare 1969-S DDO, and 1972 DDO
Variety 1. These are all quite popular with collectors, and these
collectors may not be interested in the varieties of large cents, but
all can co-exsist without charges of fraud, greed or scamming. Who,
exactly, is making these large profits from what you consider these
"bogus" varieties? There are simply not enough of these around to
feather anyone's nest, except for the 1955 DDOs, 1972 DDOs and 1922 No
Ds. These are always around in quantity, but are popular with non
variety collectors as well, as the variety is clearly visible to the
naked eye. Stewart Blay, a well known collector paid $125,000 for a
1958 DDO cent a few years ago, the sole MS-65 known, and just tis
year, another in lesser grade changed hands by well known collector in
a lesser grade for $165,000 I'm told.These folks are no fools and most
would consider them knowledgeable numismatists. In fact, one of our
venerable curmudgeons on this forum just bought from me a real nice
1972 DDO cent. He's also a lover of large cents as well.
_______________


Any collector who would pay $125,000 or $165,000 for any doubling on a one
dollar 1958 Lincoln Cent would be considered damn close to a fool by most
other collectors, and likely has never had to worry where his next hundred
grand was coming from.