The two Bobs and the fake Trade Dollar in fake PCGS slab on eBay:Ira's take on this matter

A few days ago Frank Provasek brought to the attention of this group a
fake Trade Dollar in a fake slab on eBay. Here's a link:

http://cgi.ebay.com/1877-S-Trade-Dol...mZ260396626969

He was rudely insulted and denigrated by the two Bobs. Bob Finnan (Bob
F) and Bob Olson (oly). If anyone has not read the thread it's all
here on RCC. Frank was doing a community service by his post, but as
occasionally happens here on this forum, no good deed goes unpunished.
Sure, the characteristics of the fake were obvious. A so-called MS-64
but no luster OR bag marks? A few obligatory marks were placed after
production in the left obverse field to simulate bag marks but there
are quite obviously NOT bag marks. In addition, the reverse die
characteristics were wrong for this date. On genuine pieces, the
eagle's right talon and leg, on your right as you view the coin, are
so weak they are generally devoid of details. The counterfeiter didn't
know this as he used a reverse from another date of Trade Dollar to
fashion the counterfeit dies. The counterfeiter then perused the
Heritage archives to find a slab photo of the coin of the same Type
and date and used that number on the counterfeit slabs.

Fakes of this sort are particularly dangerous because buyers believe
the PCGS slab protects them and many if not most see nothing amiss
about a coin that sells for 1/10th to 1/4 of its wholesale value.
Greed and just ignorance are at work here. I've gotten two e-mails
from potential buyers for the Trade Dollar in PCGS MS-63 I have on
eBay demanding to know why I was asking so much when they could buy a
comparable one for 1/3 of my price (I paid $2000, which is Gray Sheet
Bid, my cost btw, and have it on eBay for $2195). I believe many
people just can't seem to tell the difference between a real one and a
bogus example.

So again, the slimy and unjustified behavior of Finnan and Olson again
show how damaging the posts of these two people are not only to Frank
but to all readers of this newsgroup. They discourage people from
posting at all lest they be similarly attacked by these cowards hiding
behind their keyboards. Olson (oly) and Finnan (Robert F or Bob F)
deserve no recognition from anyone on this group in my opinion. No
matter that they occasionally post some useful information. In my
view, they are bad actors and deserve to be shunned.

Ira Stein

"Ira" wrote in message
...
... In my view, they are bad actors and deserve to be shunned.

In my view, you are a pompous windbag and a hypocrite.
You normally come here to brag about how much money you have.
What happened, did you "invest" with Bernie Madoff?

On Apr 20, 9:42*am, "Bob F." wrote:
"Ira" wrote in message

...

... In my *view, they are bad actors and deserve to be shunned.

In my view, you are a pompous windbag and a hypocrite.
You normally come here to brag about how much money you have.
What happened, did you "invest" with Bernie Madoff?

Actually, Dip****, one needed $10,000,000 minimum to invest with
Madoff. Only in the last 12 months, so I understand, would he consider
as little as one million $$ as an "investment.." You must be confusing
me with your buddy Olson, the bank examiner and penny elongator.
Excuse me as I have to get dressed in my tux for a luncheon date with
Scrooge McDuck. My treat this time. "Jeeves, get the Corniche washed
please. I'm going out."

Ira

"Ira" wrote in message
...
Actually, Dip****, one needed $10,000,000 minimum to invest with
Madoff. Only in the last 12 months, so I understand, would he consider
as little as one million $$ as an "investment.." You must be confusing
me with your buddy Olson, the bank examiner and penny elongator.
Excuse me as I have to get dressed in my tux for a luncheon date with
Scrooge McDuck. My treat this time. "Jeeves, get the Corniche washed
please. I'm going out."


Like I said - windbag and hypocrite.

Ira wrote:
A few days ago Frank Provasek brought to the attention of this group a
fake Trade Dollar in a fake slab on eBay. Here's a link:

http://cgi.ebay.com/1877-S-Trade-Dol...mZ260396626969

He was rudely insulted and denigrated by the two Bobs. Bob Finnan (Bob
F) and Bob Olson (oly). If anyone has not read the thread it's all
here on RCC. Frank was doing a community service by his post, but as
occasionally happens here on this forum, no good deed goes unpunished.
Sure, the characteristics of the fake were obvious. A so-called MS-64
but no luster OR bag marks? A few obligatory marks were placed after
production in the left obverse field to simulate bag marks but there
are quite obviously NOT bag marks. In addition, the reverse die
characteristics were wrong for this date. On genuine pieces, the
eagle's right talon and leg, on your right as you view the coin, are
so weak they are generally devoid of details. The counterfeiter didn't
know this as he used a reverse from another date of Trade Dollar to
fashion the counterfeit dies. The counterfeiter then perused the
Heritage archives to find a slab photo of the coin of the same Type
and date and used that number on the counterfeit slabs.

I just took time to reread the entire thread.

That there were insults and denigration I myself will not deny. Others may
have a different assessment of what they read. It's all in what a reader
brings to the experience of Usenet. As far as the OP's community service,
all his original post contained was a link to some auctions, with no
explanation or corroborative evidence given. There aren't many of us here
who can make a snap judgment as to authenticity of a coin from a screen
image, even with good equipment, and proper evidence should therefore have
been provided immediately. Otherwise it becomes a he said, she said
situation, and we are left to scratch our heads and wonder. Based on what I
have seen in slabs of all stripes over the past couple of decades, there are
no hard and fast rules as to what MS-anything should look like, no matter
what the pontificators at the slabbing companies may assert. No discussion
of the damning pickup points for these two coins occurred until almost five
hours after the original accusation was made, leaving plenty of time for
mischief, which was engaged in by plaintiff and defendant alike. The
explanation given above is the first real answer to many of the pleas made
by me and some others six days ago. It is not a proper learning situation
if the students have to pry the information out of the teacher.

Fakes of this sort are particularly dangerous because buyers believe
the PCGS slab protects them and many if not most see nothing amiss
about a coin that sells for 1/10th to 1/4 of its wholesale value.
Greed and just ignorance are at work here. I've gotten two e-mails
from potential buyers for the Trade Dollar in PCGS MS-63 I have on
eBay demanding to know why I was asking so much when they could buy a
comparable one for 1/3 of my price (I paid $2000, which is Gray Sheet
Bid, my cost btw, and have it on eBay for $2195). I believe many
people just can't seem to tell the difference between a real one and a
bogus example.

Perfectly understandable, I'd say. Back when spark-erosion dies hit the
industry, almost anyone could learn to spot their products in a relatively
short time, and the fakery involved only the most popular of rarities. The
1909-S VDB Lincoln cent comes to mind. In the interim, the sophistication
of counterfeits has evolved and morphed into what we have today: fake coins
in fake slabs, the quality of both of which is being refined daily. Today,
virtually everything is fair game. Where will this end? The fakes are
getting better and better and leaving fewer and fewer who can spot them. At
the recent EAC convention, several prominent copper enthusiasts were
worriedly observing that this could spell the demise of the entire industry.
When only a handful of unflappable experts remain who can identify the
fakes, the fun will have long disappeared from our hobby.

So again, the slimy and unjustified behavior of Finnan and Olson again
show how damaging the posts of these two people are not only to Frank
but to all readers of this newsgroup. They discourage people from
posting at all lest they be similarly attacked by these cowards hiding
behind their keyboards. Olson (oly) and Finnan (Robert F or Bob F)
deserve no recognition from anyone on this group in my opinion. No
matter that they occasionally post some useful information. In my
view, they are bad actors and deserve to be shunned.

Each of us has the right to post what he is thinking, slimy or otherwise,
and each of us has the right (and responsibility) to choose to read or not
read anything that is posted here. It doesn't take very long for the
reputation of a given poster to become classified by the readers. If a
reader does not like what he sees when he opens one of my posts, for
example, he reigns supreme in any decision to open or avoid opening any
subsequent ones, and there is absolutely nothing I can do about it. If he
goes ahead and opens one anyway, whether out of some voyeuristic pathology,
or from boredom, or from curiosity, or whatever, he gets what he gets, and
if he gets himself offended, it's entirely his own problem at that point,
not mine.

James

Ira wrote:
On Apr 20, 9:42 am, "Bob F." wrote:
"Ira" wrote in message

...

... In my view, they are bad actors and deserve to be shunned.

In my view, you are a pompous windbag and a hypocrite.
You normally come here to brag about how much money you have.
What happened, did you "invest" with Bernie Madoff?

Actually, Dip****, one needed $10,000,000 minimum to invest with
Madoff. Only in the last 12 months, so I understand, would he consider
as little as one million $$ as an "investment.." You must be confusing
me with your buddy Olson, the bank examiner and penny elongator.
Excuse me as I have to get dressed in my tux for a luncheon date with
Scrooge McDuck. My treat this time. "Jeeves, get the Corniche washed
please. I'm going out."

I gotta confess to having to look up what a Corniche is. Whew, I guess that
alone disqualifies me from being accused of any Madoff-type deals. 8)

James

"Ira" wrote in message (Robert F or Bob F)
deserve no recognition from anyone on this group in my opinion. No
matter that they occasionally post some useful information. In my
view, they are bad actors and deserve to be shunned.

Ira Stein


I am not a "regular" here, but I lurk and post once in a while. I don't post
more mainly because I find Bob F to be a complete dick, and it is a turn off
for anyone to have every post you make get some rude, snide comment from
someone who apparently thinks this is "his" group. I am no thin skinned
internet newbie, I have been doing this since the beginning of the usenet in
the early 90s, and folks like Bob F have been around the whole time, but I
have better things to do (most days) than engage fools like him. It is a
shame though that they for whatever egomaniacal reason feel the need to ruin
things for others.

D

"dsybok" wrote in message
m...

"Ira" wrote in message (Robert F or Bob F)
deserve no recognition from anyone on this group in my opinion. No
matter that they occasionally post some useful information. In my
view, they are bad actors and deserve to be shunned.

Ira Stein


I am not a "regular" here, but I lurk and post once in a while. I
don't post more mainly because I find Bob F to be a complete dick, and
it is a turn off for anyone to have every post you make get some rude,
snide comment from someone who apparently thinks this is "his" group.
I am no thin skinned internet newbie, I have been doing this since the
beginning of the usenet in the early 90s, and folks like Bob F have
been around the whole time, but I have better things to do (most days)
than engage fools like him. It is a shame though that they for
whatever egomaniacal reason feel the need to ruin things for others.

Oh yeah? Well **** you too!
PLONK

On Apr 20, 12:51*pm, "dsybok" wrote:
"Ira" wrote in message (Robert F or Bob F)
deserve no recognition from anyone on this group in my opinion. No
matter that they occasionally post some useful information. In my
view, they are bad actors and deserve to be shunned.

Ira Stein

I am not a "regular" here, but I lurk and post once in a while. I don't post
more mainly because I find Bob F to be a complete dick, and it is a turn off
for anyone to have every post you make get some rude, snide comment from
someone who apparently thinks this is "his" group. I am no thin skinned
internet newbie, I have been doing this since the beginning of the usenet in
the early 90s, and folks like Bob F have been around the whole time, but I
have better things to do (most days) than engage fools like him. It is a
shame though that they for whatever egomaniacal reason feel the need to ruin
things for others.

D

There are a number of people here on RCC who would gladly trade your
valuable cow for their handful of magic beans. Part of the way in
which they convince you to make such a stupid trade is that they
project that they possess elite knowledge about magic beans which is
not available to the hoi polloi.

In the disreputable business of vending magic beans, it strikes me as
good that there are naysayers. That's why RF is valuable here - to
provide at least some offset to all the B.S. of the magic bean
phonies.

oly

"oly" wrote in message
...
In the disreputable business of vending magic beans, it strikes me as
good that there are naysayers. That's why RF is valuable here - to
provide at least some offset to all the B.S. of the magic bean
phonies.


Like the the unnamed blowhard "dealer" who has multi-thousand dollar
Lincoln cents on eBay never seem to sell?
You want rare coins - take a look at the mintages of Canadian George V
half dollars in the 30's, all less than 60,000 and available in Fine
condition for less than $100! .
These are coins that actually ARE rare in any condition.
George VI halves of the 30s all have mintages of less than 290,000 and
sell for less than $20 in Fine
Canadian silver dollars of the 40s are also incredible scarce yet remain
affordable in Fine (well except the 1948 which is pricey in any grade.)