RUSSIA: 1842 rouble (A-Ch) -- rare overdate?

I picked up this coin today at the "Internationale Münzenbörse" in
Basel. This venue used to be the "World Money Fair", but that has
moved to Berlin and will take place next weekend. Needless to say, the
show has lost much of its former glamour (I can only compare it to
last year's show). Spent a little under $100 total: in addition to
this coin, all I found was an 1861 Indian cent in choice VF
(borderline XF) for about VG money, and a gorgeous 1925 Peace dollar
for $18. It's always an interesting experience to attend a European
coin show ("Slabs? What are those??" g ... all the coins are either
in large flat display trays or in 2x2's in an album).

Anyway, these pre-1844 roubles never cease to surprise me. There are
so many die cracks in this one that I wonder how they kept it from
falling apart completely? The eagle side (never can get it straight
what is "obverse" and "reverse" with these coins) has the most awesome
die polish (if one can still call it that) at 8 pm.

But I'm most interested in the date which appears to be repunched ...
but over what?? The 2 looks like 2/1, but the 4 has some wierd thing
coming off the top ... Anyway, here are the pics:

http://imagecloset.com/8/01590828-Ru...2_A_CH_obv.jpg
http://imagecloset.com/8/01400828-Ru...2_A_CH_rev.jpg
http://imagecloset.com/8/01060828-Ru...ate_detail.jpg

If you have R.W. Julian's book "Russian Silver Coinage 1796-1917", it
looks to me like #1087 (described on p. 92) -- eagle "d" with 7 buds,
and no misspellings.

--
Bob Hairgrove

Unable to bring up imagecloset.com. However, you are quite right that
pre-1844 roubles
often have numerous die breaks and are poorly struck. This is especially
true for the late
1830s as well.

The overdate is probably, as you say, 1842/1. I have seen one of these
but it may be from
a different reverse die.

RWJ


Bob Hairgrove wrote:

I picked up this coin today at the "Internationale Münzenbörse" in
Basel. This venue used to be the "World Money Fair", but that has
moved to Berlin and will take place next weekend. Needless to say, the
show has lost much of its former glamour (I can only compare it to
last year's show). Spent a little under $100 total: in addition to
this coin, all I found was an 1861 Indian cent in choice VF
(borderline XF) for about VG money, and a gorgeous 1925 Peace dollar
for $18. It's always an interesting experience to attend a European
coin show ("Slabs? What are those??" g ... all the coins are either
in large flat display trays or in 2x2's in an album).

Anyway, these pre-1844 roubles never cease to surprise me. There are
so many die cracks in this one that I wonder how they kept it from
falling apart completely? The eagle side (never can get it straight
what is "obverse" and "reverse" with these coins) has the most awesome
die polish (if one can still call it that) at 8 pm.

But I'm most interested in the date which appears to be repunched ...
but over what?? The 2 looks like 2/1, but the 4 has some wierd thing
coming off the top ... Anyway, here are the pics:

http://imagecloset.com/8/01590828-Ru...2_A_CH_obv.jpg
http://imagecloset.com/8/01400828-Ru...2_A_CH_rev.jpg
http://imagecloset.com/8/01060828-Ru...ate_detail.jpg

If you have R.W. Julian's book "Russian Silver Coinage 1796-1917", it
looks to me like #1087 (described on p. 92) -- eagle "d" with 7 buds,
and no misspellings.

--
Bob Hairgrove

On Sat, 28 Jan 2006 15:48:02 -0500, RW Julian
wrote:

Unable to bring up imagecloset.com.

Bob, I know that some people here have said that they also had trouble
with this server. I would post my pictures to ABPN, but my NG server
doesn't carry it, so this is what I ended up with. There's also the
Yahoo picture site, but they always resize the pictures to about 1/2
the screen width (which seriously hampers a lot of numismatic
research! g)

If you have that high-speed cable internet connection you said you
were getting, it should eventually work. Please keep trying;
otherwise, I would be happy to resize the pictures to something
downloadable with dial-up and provide close-ups only of the salient
parts and e-mail them to you...

However, you are quite right that
pre-1844 roubles
often have numerous die breaks and are poorly struck. This is especially
true for the late
1830s as well.

The overdate is probably, as you say, 1842/1. I have seen one of these
but it may be from
a different reverse die.

Which one? I might be mistaken as to the correct die attribution;
after all, there are only a dozen or so different eagles! g (BTW,
which one is the "reverse"??)


RWJ


Bob Hairgrove wrote:

I picked up this coin today at the "Internationale Münzenbörse" in
Basel. This venue used to be the "World Money Fair", but that has
moved to Berlin and will take place next weekend. Needless to say, the
show has lost much of its former glamour (I can only compare it to
last year's show). Spent a little under $100 total: in addition to
this coin, all I found was an 1861 Indian cent in choice VF
(borderline XF) for about VG money, and a gorgeous 1925 Peace dollar
for $18. It's always an interesting experience to attend a European
coin show ("Slabs? What are those??" g ... all the coins are either
in large flat display trays or in 2x2's in an album).

Anyway, these pre-1844 roubles never cease to surprise me. There are
so many die cracks in this one that I wonder how they kept it from
falling apart completely? The eagle side (never can get it straight
what is "obverse" and "reverse" with these coins) has the most awesome
die polish (if one can still call it that) at 8 pm.

But I'm most interested in the date which appears to be repunched ...
but over what?? The 2 looks like 2/1, but the 4 has some wierd thing
coming off the top ... Anyway, here are the pics:

http://imagecloset.com/8/01590828-Ru...2_A_CH_obv.jpg
http://imagecloset.com/8/01400828-Ru...2_A_CH_rev.jpg
http://imagecloset.com/8/01060828-Ru...ate_detail.jpg

If you have R.W. Julian's book "Russian Silver Coinage 1796-1917", it
looks to me like #1087 (described on p. 92) -- eagle "d" with 7 buds,
and no misspellings.

--
Bob Hairgrove




--
Bob Hairgrove

Well .... this time it came up with no trouble whatsoever. Go figure.

The overdate, in my opinion, is clearly 1842/1. It also appears as
though the
die sinker started one kind of figure 4 then changed his mind on the angle
at the upper left side; this could perhaps be called a blundered 4.

I do not have a note as to which eagle is involved for the overdate I
have seen.
The eagle, by the way, I consider as the obverse as it is the State
symbol. On the
other hand if there is a portrait on one side and the eagle on the other
I think
the portrait side becomes the obverse. In Russia today the State symbol is
always considered the obverse on current coins regardless of the other side
though most collectors in the West would prefer the opposite.

RWJ

Bob Hairgrove wrote:

On Sat, 28 Jan 2006 15:48:02 -0500, RW Julian
wrote:



Unable to bring up imagecloset.com.



Bob, I know that some people here have said that they also had trouble
with this server. I would post my pictures to ABPN, but my NG server
doesn't carry it, so this is what I ended up with. There's also the
Yahoo picture site, but they always resize the pictures to about 1/2
the screen width (which seriously hampers a lot of numismatic
research! g)


However, you are quite right that
pre-1844 roubles
often have numerous die breaks and are poorly struck. This is especially
true for the late
1830s as well.

The overdate is probably, as you say, 1842/1. I have seen one of these
but it may be from
a different reverse die.



Which one? I might be mistaken as to the correct die attribution;
after all, there are only a dozen or so different eagles! g (BTW,
which one is the "reverse"??)



RWJ


Bob Hairgrove wrote:



I picked up this coin today at the "Internationale Münzenbörse" in
Basel. This venue used to be the "World Money Fair", but that has
moved to Berlin and will take place next weekend. Needless to say, the
show has lost much of its former glamour (I can only compare it to
last year's show). Spent a little under $100 total: in addition to
this coin, all I found was an 1861 Indian cent in choice VF
(borderline XF) for about VG money, and a gorgeous 1925 Peace dollar
for $18. It's always an interesting experience to attend a European
coin show ("Slabs? What are those??" g ... all the coins are either
in large flat display trays or in 2x2's in an album).

Anyway, these pre-1844 roubles never cease to surprise me. There are
so many die cracks in this one that I wonder how they kept it from
falling apart completely? The eagle side (never can get it straight
what is "obverse" and "reverse" with these coins) has the most awesome
die polish (if one can still call it that) at 8 pm.

But I'm most interested in the date which appears to be repunched ...
but over what?? The 2 looks like 2/1, but the 4 has some wierd thing
coming off the top ... Anyway, here are the pics:

http://imagecloset.com/8/01590828-Ru...2_A_CH_obv.jpg
http://imagecloset.com/8/01400828-Ru...2_A_CH_rev.jpg
http://imagecloset.com/8/01060828-Ru...ate_detail.jpg

If you have R.W. Julian's book "Russian Silver Coinage 1796-1917", it
looks to me like #1087 (described on p. 92) -- eagle "d" with 7 buds,
and no misspellings.

--
Bob Hairgrove






--
Bob Hairgrove

On Sun, 29 Jan 2006 13:39:30 -0500, RW Julian
wrote:

Well .... this time it came up with no trouble whatsoever. Go figure.

The overdate, in my opinion, is clearly 1842/1. It also appears as
though the
die sinker started one kind of figure 4 then changed his mind on the angle
at the upper left side; this could perhaps be called a blundered 4.

I do not have a note as to which eagle is involved for the overdate I
have seen.

Thanks for persevering, Bob ... I appreciate it very much. Do you have
any idea whether such coins would command a premium on the market?

The eagle, by the way, I consider as the obverse as it is the State
symbol. On the
other hand if there is a portrait on one side and the eagle on the other
I think
the portrait side becomes the obverse. In Russia today the State symbol is
always considered the obverse on current coins regardless of the other side
though most collectors in the West would prefer the opposite.

So the monogram of Catherine the Great on a 5 kopek coin, for example,
is not the state symbol, but the eagle is? I suppose the fact that
most U.S. American coins that have an eagle, have it on the reverse,
is what has got me confused.

BTW, after almost a year of looking almost every day, there has
finally been a rare-date poltina of Nicholas II up for auction on eBay
-- 1902-AR, only in F-15 or thereabouts -- but it's mine now!
Mintage figure of only 36,009. I think I'd be content to pull in a
nice 1907 some day and then just leave the rest to chance ...

BTW2, did you go to the last New York sale of Dmitri Markov? I took
the opportunity of looking at the lots of Nicholas II at the Basel
office of his "Swiss Connection" (Dr. Hans Voegtli, ACAMA) and
actually held the 1903 poltina in my hand, thinking that this is one
coin that I shall probably never own, but satisfied just to have held
it once -- even if it was in an NGC slab! In your book you write that
1898 and 1903 poltinas are believed to have been struck in proofs
only. Well, this 1903 poltina was advertised in Mr. Markov's auction
as "prooflike", but not "proof"; and after seeing it, I wouldn't say
it was a proof, either; it *is* a splendid coin, though. Amazingly low
mintage of 19 pieces total, and only 10 for 1898 ... not even enough
for one roll!

Dmitri Markov also had a choice proof 1912 Borodino commemorative
rouble in the auction (lot #1560) ... but in your book you state that
this is "unknown in proof"? I also looked at that one, and it is
indeed a proof, as far as I could tell. That is one absolutely
gorgeous coin...someday I'll sell all my 50 kopek pieces and splurge
on that one coin...if I can still find it, that is!

Bob Hairgrove wrote:
[snipped]

--
Bob Hairgrove

Well, my news server is working again, after being down for 50 hours, so
I was able to read
this message.

Overdates tend to bring slightly better money but there is no fixed rule.

The Russians tend to put the monogram of the Empress for the obverse but
my view is that
the State emblem is more important than the ruler's initials. You would
probably get 11 opinions
from 10 people on this one, however. I also think that the portrait
outweighs the eagle, which is
probably not consistent!

The 1902 poltina is rare; sorry I missed that one!

I was not at the NY International (never have been) but the proof 1912
Borodino has shown
up in proof since the book was published in 1993. I could not find any
record of such a coin
before publication but have seen two or three since. It is extremely
rare and was clearly made
only for VIPs. The pieces I saw were definitely proofs and not proof-like.

The 19 pieces you mention (which is found in the annual fiscal report of
the mint) is not really a
mintage as such. It is actually the number of pieces distributed to key
collections, as that of the
Emperor, the Hermitage, various museums, and important collectors such
as Grand Duke
Georgii Mikhailovich. The proof coins sold to ordinary collectors were
never listed in the
official mint reports so the true mintage of the 1903 poltina, which was
made only in proof,
is unknown but perhaps in the 200 to 300 range. There were, by the way,
several proof-only
mintages under Nicholas II, such as the 5 through 20 kopecks of 1913
with the EB initials.

RWJ

Bob Hairgrove wrote:

On Sun, 29 Jan 2006 13:39:30 -0500, RW Julian
wrote:



Well .... this time it came up with no trouble whatsoever. Go figure.

The overdate, in my opinion, is clearly 1842/1. It also appears as
though the
die sinker started one kind of figure 4 then changed his mind on the angle
at the upper left side; this could perhaps be called a blundered 4.

I do not have a note as to which eagle is involved for the overdate I
have seen.



Thanks for persevering, Bob ... I appreciate it very much. Do you have
any idea whether such coins would command a premium on the market?



The eagle, by the way, I consider as the obverse as it is the State
symbol. On the
other hand if there is a portrait on one side and the eagle on the other
I think
the portrait side becomes the obverse. In Russia today the State symbol is
always considered the obverse on current coins regardless of the other side
though most collectors in the West would prefer the opposite.



So the monogram of Catherine the Great on a 5 kopek coin, for example,
is not the state symbol, but the eagle is? I suppose the fact that
most U.S. American coins that have an eagle, have it on the reverse,
is what has got me confused.

BTW, after almost a year of looking almost every day, there has
finally been a rare-date poltina of Nicholas II up for auction on eBay
-- 1902-AR, only in F-15 or thereabouts -- but it's mine now!
Mintage figure of only 36,009. I think I'd be content to pull in a
nice 1907 some day and then just leave the rest to chance ...

BTW2, did you go to the last New York sale of Dmitri Markov? I took
the opportunity of looking at the lots of Nicholas II at the Basel
office of his "Swiss Connection" (Dr. Hans Voegtli, ACAMA) and
actually held the 1903 poltina in my hand, thinking that this is one
coin that I shall probably never own, but satisfied just to have held
it once -- even if it was in an NGC slab! In your book you write that
1898 and 1903 poltinas are believed to have been struck in proofs
only. Well, this 1903 poltina was advertised in Mr. Markov's auction
as "prooflike", but not "proof"; and after seeing it, I wouldn't say
it was a proof, either; it *is* a splendid coin, though. Amazingly low
mintage of 19 pieces total, and only 10 for 1898 ... not even enough
for one roll!

Dmitri Markov also had a choice proof 1912 Borodino commemorative
rouble in the auction (lot #1560) ... but in your book you state that
this is "unknown in proof"? I also looked at that one, and it is
indeed a proof, as far as I could tell. That is one absolutely
gorgeous coin...someday I'll sell all my 50 kopek pieces and splurge
on that one coin...if I can still find it, that is!



Bob Hairgrove wrote:


[snipped]

--
Bob Hairgrove