FS (To Right Person): Fake Chinese Silver Dollars

A friend of mine attended a coin show in central Illinois last month and
encountered a U.S. coin dealer with a stack of old Chinese silver dollars "from
the estate of a World War II veteran." He paid $50 for 3 pieces that looked
good to him, thinking he could make a quick $200 or so profit. He sent them to
me to sell at the NYINC a couple of weeks ago.

Genuine Chinese Imperial silver dollars should weigh about 26.8-27.1 grams,
according to the Shanghai Museum catalog. (Buy the book before the coin.) I
weighed a dragon dollar I have, and it came to 27.13 g. (Buy a good electronic
scale.) The weights of these 3 pieces a 21.13 g, 19.86 g, and 18.31 g.
Worse, one is a crazy mule: in English, it says "34th Year of Kuang Hsu" but
in Chinese, on the other side, only the 22nd year. (Learn to read the language
before buying the coin.) They have a silvery appearance, but obviously do not
have much silver content. I am not certain whether they are die struck, or
pressure casts with the reeding added by broaching (edge reeding has gaps on
some). I take them for modern tourist copies, possibly purchased in the 1980s
or 1990s.

I didn't find the right person in New York, but would prefer to take my friend
out of these at some reasonable price, rather than return them to him. I do
not want to list them on eBay for fear that they may be resold as genuine, but
if there is anyone here who is interested in one or more (they have different
designs) for study purposes, and will agree to mark or holder them as fakes,
please let me know. Contact me directly (address not munged).

I never buy collector counterfeit coins myself (intentionally!) and discourage
others from supporting fakers too. But someone might want to see what these
deceptive fakes look like, to avoid being taken in a similar situation.

Bob Leonard

If I get suckered in buying a fake coin to make a quick profit, I would
learn from my mistake take the financial hit and destroy them. Please don't
return this to the market, the next person may lose more than 50$.

"RLWinnetka" a écrit dans le message de news:
...
A friend of mine attended a coin show in central Illinois last month and
encountered a U.S. coin dealer with a stack of old Chinese silver dollars
"from
the estate of a World War II veteran." He paid $50 for 3 pieces that
looked
good to him, thinking he could make a quick $200 or so profit. He sent
them to
me to sell at the NYINC a couple of weeks ago.

Genuine Chinese Imperial silver dollars should weigh about 26.8-27.1
grams,
according to the Shanghai Museum catalog. (Buy the book before the coin.)
I
weighed a dragon dollar I have, and it came to 27.13 g. (Buy a good
electronic
scale.) The weights of these 3 pieces a 21.13 g, 19.86 g, and 18.31
g.
Worse, one is a crazy mule: in English, it says "34th Year of Kuang Hsu"
but
in Chinese, on the other side, only the 22nd year. (Learn to read the
language
before buying the coin.) They have a silvery appearance, but obviously do
not
have much silver content. I am not certain whether they are die struck,
or
pressure casts with the reeding added by broaching (edge reeding has gaps
on
some). I take them for modern tourist copies, possibly purchased in the
1980s
or 1990s.

I didn't find the right person in New York, but would prefer to take my
friend
out of these at some reasonable price, rather than return them to him. I
do
not want to list them on eBay for fear that they may be resold as genuine,
but
if there is anyone here who is interested in one or more (they have
different
designs) for study purposes, and will agree to mark or holder them as
fakes,
please let me know. Contact me directly (address not munged).

I never buy collector counterfeit coins myself (intentionally!) and
discourage
others from supporting fakers too. But someone might want to see what
these
deceptive fakes look like, to avoid being taken in a similar situation.

Bob Leonard

Bob, I would have to agree with NoSpam. Custody of all coins is temporary.
Even if a very conscientious RCCer acquires the pieces, they will eventually
see the market again. I say do a favor for numismatics and convince your
friend to put these pieces out of their (and our) misery.

James
'no honor among thieves'

"NoSpam" wrote in message
news:t1bJd.147046$KO5.76699@clgrps13...
If I get suckered in buying a fake coin to make a quick profit, I would
learn from my mistake take the financial hit and destroy them. Please
don't return this to the market, the next person may lose more than 50$.

"RLWinnetka" a écrit dans le message de news:
...
A friend of mine attended a coin show in central Illinois last month and
encountered a U.S. coin dealer with a stack of old Chinese silver dollars
"from
the estate of a World War II veteran." He paid $50 for 3 pieces that
looked
good to him, thinking he could make a quick $200 or so profit. He sent
them to
me to sell at the NYINC a couple of weeks ago.

Genuine Chinese Imperial silver dollars should weigh about 26.8-27.1
grams,
according to the Shanghai Museum catalog. (Buy the book before the
coin.) I
weighed a dragon dollar I have, and it came to 27.13 g. (Buy a good
electronic
scale.) The weights of these 3 pieces a 21.13 g, 19.86 g, and 18.31
g.
Worse, one is a crazy mule: in English, it says "34th Year of Kuang Hsu"
but
in Chinese, on the other side, only the 22nd year. (Learn to read the
language
before buying the coin.) They have a silvery appearance, but obviously
do not
have much silver content. I am not certain whether they are die struck,
or
pressure casts with the reeding added by broaching (edge reeding has gaps
on
some). I take them for modern tourist copies, possibly purchased in the
1980s
or 1990s.

I didn't find the right person in New York, but would prefer to take my
friend
out of these at some reasonable price, rather than return them to him. I
do
not want to list them on eBay for fear that they may be resold as
genuine, but
if there is anyone here who is interested in one or more (they have
different
designs) for study purposes, and will agree to mark or holder them as
fakes,
please let me know. Contact me directly (address not munged).

I never buy collector counterfeit coins myself (intentionally!) and
discourage
others from supporting fakers too. But someone might want to see what
these
deceptive fakes look like, to avoid being taken in a similar situation.

Bob Leonard

They aren't my coins. And I don't plan to pay $50 to destroy them
myself.

Interesting story . . . I'm torn about the situation with China right
now. On one hand as an ancient and world dealer, I'm opposed to import
restrictions. On the other hand, I recently sawe an auction that made my
mouth water - until.

It was in the world collections & lots section of ebay. It was a large
group of dollars, crowns, half dollars and other large sized silver
coins. I forget how many but it was a very large number, the figure 166
or 266 sticks in my head. The postage alone was like $30 or $50. It was
from China. There were Chinese dollars from pre-communist times, Peace
dollars, Morgan dollars, British & American Trade dollars, French
colonial piastres, Walker halves, etc. It made one drool - well,
momentarily.

Upon closer inspection of the many pics the seller/criminal was kind
enough to include, I noticed that a US Walker half was the same size as
a US Peace dollar! Not only that but the lettering and portraits were
sort of smooth and rather "plastic" in appearence on the British crowns
and Peace dollars (the Morgans looked real though) and the seated
Liberty on the French colonial piastres looked suspect too.

Of course the lot started low and had many bids. No doubt some greedy
person will get a very disapointing lot of nice pewter junk with maybe a
few real coins tossed in. Would I resell them? Only if the buyer was
publishing a book on fakes.

Metal fakes should be restricted to use for museums and jewelry. I think
it is criminal when a real coin is used for a belt buck, ring, money
clip, etc. That is where fakes have a role. I recall a number of years
back seeing either Sears or J.C. Pennys using Indian Head pennies for
the faces of wrist watches. I just inwardly groaned at the idea. I was
depressed all afternoon upon making the discovery in a catalog.

Now using fakes silver dollars for just such a thing is a good idea. If
they are mounted the right way they will be too badly damaged to have
any value even if passed off as real.

My 2 lepta,

Jim

RLWinnetka wrote:

A friend of mine attended a coin show in central Illinois last month and
encountered a U.S. coin dealer with a stack of old Chinese silver dollars "from
the estate of a World War II veteran." He paid $50 for 3 pieces that looked
good to him, thinking he could make a quick $200 or so profit. He sent them to
me to sell at the NYINC a couple of weeks ago.

Genuine Chinese Imperial silver dollars should weigh about 26.8-27.1 grams,
according to the Shanghai Museum catalog. (Buy the book before the coin.) I
weighed a dragon dollar I have, and it came to 27.13 g. (Buy a good electronic
scale.) The weights of these 3 pieces a 21.13 g, 19.86 g, and 18.31 g.
Worse, one is a crazy mule: in English, it says "34th Year of Kuang Hsu" but
in Chinese, on the other side, only the 22nd year. (Learn to read the language
before buying the coin.) They have a silvery appearance, but obviously do not
have much silver content. I am not certain whether they are die struck, or
pressure casts with the reeding added by broaching (edge reeding has gaps on
some). I take them for modern tourist copies, possibly purchased in the 1980s
or 1990s.

I didn't find the right person in New York, but would prefer to take my friend
out of these at some reasonable price, rather than return them to him. I do
not want to list them on eBay for fear that they may be resold as genuine, but
if there is anyone here who is interested in one or more (they have different
designs) for study purposes, and will agree to mark or holder them as fakes,
please let me know. Contact me directly (address not munged).

I never buy collector counterfeit coins myself (intentionally!) and discourage
others from supporting fakers too. But someone might want to see what these
deceptive fakes look like, to avoid being taken in a similar situation.

Bob Leonard

Would the technical requirements of the law be met if someone (like the ana)
were to stamp them COPY for free as a public service.

You could send them to the ANA along with return postage, they would stamp
them, and send them back.

Everyone would be happy - right?

wrote in message
oups.com...
They aren't my coins. And I don't plan to pay $50 to destroy them
myself.

"Bob Peterson" wrote in message
...
Would the technical requirements of the law be met if someone (like the
ana)
were to stamp them COPY for free as a public service.

You could send them to the ANA along with return postage, they would stamp
them, and send them back.

Everyone would be happy - right?


Or he simply could stamp them "COPY" on both sides himself with a metal
stamp tool and then do whatever he wanted with them. The ANA has no unique
special blessing powers.

Bruce

"Bruce Remick" wrote in message
news:0RgJd.79470$Wo.20512@lakeread08...

"Bob Peterson" wrote in message
...
Would the technical requirements of the law be met if someone (like the
ana)
were to stamp them COPY for free as a public service.

You could send them to the ANA along with return postage, they would
stamp
them, and send them back.

Everyone would be happy - right?


Or he simply could stamp them "COPY" on both sides himself with a metal
stamp tool and then do whatever he wanted with them. The ANA has no
unique
special blessing powers.

I did not mean to sound like the ANA was the only poeple with the magic
power to stamp them, but how many peopla have such a stamp?


Bruce

"Bruce Remick" wrote in message
news:0RgJd.79470$Wo.20512@lakeread08...

"Bob Peterson" wrote in message
...
Would the technical requirements of the law be met if someone (like the
ana)
were to stamp them COPY for free as a public service.

You could send them to the ANA along with return postage, they would
stamp
them, and send them back.

Everyone would be happy - right?


Or he simply could stamp them "COPY" on both sides himself with a metal
stamp tool and then do whatever he wanted with them. The ANA has no
unique
special blessing powers.

I did not mean to sound like the ANA was the only poeple with the magic
power to stamp them, but how many peopla have such a stamp?


Bruce

"Bob Peterson" wrote in message
...

"Bruce Remick" wrote in message
news:0RgJd.79470$Wo.20512@lakeread08...

"Bob Peterson" wrote in message
...
Would the technical requirements of the law be met if someone (like the
ana)
were to stamp them COPY for free as a public service.

You could send them to the ANA along with return postage, they would
stamp
them, and send them back.

Everyone would be happy - right?


Or he simply could stamp them "COPY" on both sides himself with a metal
stamp tool and then do whatever he wanted with them. The ANA has no
unique
special blessing powers.

I did not mean to sound like the ANA was the only poeple with the magic
power to stamp them, but how many peopla have such a stamp?

The ANA is not in the business of authenticating coins. Nor is it likely to
have such a stamp.

James