Why countermarks don't matter much

Here's a fairly sizeable attempted eBay scam in the works:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=3972667853

The seller, with all of one feedback, is trying to pull off a $400,000
scam with a tooled and artificially worn and toned Gallery Mint Museum
replica of the single most celebrated ancient coin, an Athenian
dekadrachm, the equivalent of an 1804 dollar, with about the same
number in existence

Look at the reverse closely. You'll see a linear depression under the
owl's legs. That's where the COPY countermark was tooled off. To
anybody who knows anything about ancient coins, this is a blatant
fake. To some rich know-nothing bidiot, it just might seem like the
opportunity of a lifetime.

Here's a picture of the same replica without the doctoring:

http://rg.cointalk.org/misc/Dek_replica.html

Scammers always find a way. The solution is education. Document the
forgeries, the tooled replicas, the unmarked replicas, the marked
replicas. Give people a chance to get smart. If they elect not to,
it's on them. A fool and his money and all that. If you shop on eBay
without knowing what you're doing, you'll eventually get stung with a
big or small scam. eBay makes it just too easy for the scammers.

--

Email: (delete "remove this")

Consumer: http://rg.ancients.info/guide
Connoisseur: http://rg.ancients.info/glom
Counterfeit: http://rg.ancients.info/bogos

Did the Gallery Mint Museum use more than one die design?

There are a number of details that just don't match....most notably the
leaves on the helmet. On the auction coin all 3 point straight up. on
the GMM piece the 2nd and 3rd leaves (from the left) are angled.

"Reid Goldsborough" wrote in message
...
Here's a fairly sizeable attempted eBay scam in the works:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=3972667853


Here's a picture of the same replica without the doctoring:

http://rg.cointalk.org/misc/Dek_replica.html


"Same" replica?
Have you slipped up on the picture link?

That owl is barely the same species. Look at the shape of the wings, the
shape and location of the "A", the "O" and the "E", the garland, the length
and thickness of the legs, etc. etc.

This isn't tooling, this is another die. (Never mind the obverse)

Counterfeit/replica or not, the second coin is not related to the first.

I'm all for exposing scammers, but accurate information is essential.

--
Jeff R.

Reid Goldsborough wrote:
Here's a fairly sizeable attempted eBay scam in the works:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=3972667853

The seller, with all of one feedback, is trying to pull off a $400,000
scam with a tooled and artificially worn and toned Gallery Mint Museum
replica of the single most celebrated ancient coin, an Athenian
dekadrachm, the equivalent of an 1804 dollar, with about the same
number in existence

Look at the reverse closely. You'll see a linear depression under the
owl's legs. That's where the COPY countermark was tooled off. To
anybody who knows anything about ancient coins, this is a blatant
fake. To some rich know-nothing bidiot, it just might seem like the
opportunity of a lifetime.

Here's a picture of the same replica without the doctoring:

http://rg.cointalk.org/misc/Dek_replica.html

Scammers always find a way. The solution is education. Document the
forgeries, the tooled replicas, the unmarked replicas, the marked
replicas. Give people a chance to get smart. If they elect not to,
it's on them. A fool and his money and all that. If you shop on eBay
without knowing what you're doing, you'll eventually get stung with a
big or small scam. eBay makes it just too easy for the scammers.

--

Email: (delete "remove this")

Consumer: http://rg.ancients.info/guide
Connoisseur: http://rg.ancients.info/glom
Counterfeit: http://rg.ancients.info/bogos

Doesn't seem to fit the Gallery Mint Museum piece you've linked. Maybe
somebody else's repro.

(1) First coin probably not genuine by any means, but Reid needs to
tune the ol' eye glasses up. (2) Reid's numismatic terminology is most
faulty; when I saw the word "countermark" I expected anything but a
bitch about the word "copy" stamped on the back of a replica. Real
countermarks do matter, and what you are refering to isn't a
countermarked coin. (3) Anybody selling a fake coin on ebay for
$400,000 is likely to be paid with fake money, fake checks or some
other form of faked reimbursement; so what's the problem?

oly

On Mon, 02 May 2005 02:30:30 -0500, Edwin Johnston
wrote:

Doesn't seem to fit the Gallery Mint Museum piece you've linked. Maybe
somebody else's repro.

Moving too quickly here. g Yep, the link I posted for the untooled
replica is a different die, but I'm fairly sure it's just another
Gallery Mint Museum die. They've been making this replica for some
time. Though the dies are different between the untooled replica I
linked to and the tooled replica used in the scam, you can see the
same hand at work. I couldn't find just now a pic of the same die of
an untooled replica that is being used in the scam, but I have a copy
of such as replica, same die. Gallery Mint Museum does pretty good
work, if you like replicas, and I know that not everybody does. They
seem to be having problems with their Web site right now -- can't get
to the pages that illustrate their products. They have an eBay store,
but they're not selling their Athenian dek replica right now.

--

Email: (delete "remove this")

Consumer: http://rg.ancients.info/guide
Connoisseur: http://rg.ancients.info/glom
Counterfeit: http://rg.ancients.info/bogos

Reid Goldsborough wrote:
On Mon, 02 May 2005 02:30:30 -0500, Edwin Johnston
wrote:


Doesn't seem to fit the Gallery Mint Museum piece you've linked. Maybe
somebody else's repro.


Moving too quickly here. g Yep, the link I posted for the untooled
replica is a different die, but I'm fairly sure it's just another
Gallery Mint Museum die. They've been making this replica for some
time. Though the dies are different between the untooled replica I
linked to and the tooled replica used in the scam, you can see the
same hand at work. I couldn't find just now a pic of the same die of
an untooled replica that is being used in the scam, but I have a copy
of such as replica, same die. Gallery Mint Museum does pretty good
work, if you like replicas, and I know that not everybody does. They
seem to be having problems with their Web site right now -- can't get
to the pages that illustrate their products. They have an eBay store,
but they're not selling their Athenian dek replica right now.


You may need to sue an Internet Explorer browser to view the GMM site
correctly. It don't work with my Firefox too well.
Anyway, here's what they offer:

Athenian Didrachm
http://www.gallerymint.com/products/...anDidrachm.htm

Athenian Tetradrachm
http://www.gallerymint.com/products/...etradrachm.htm

Athenian Decadrachm
http://www.gallerymint.com/products/...Decadrachm.htm

In a recent message Reid Goldsborough wrote:

Here's a fairly sizeable attempted eBay scam in the works:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=3972667853

The seller, with all of one feedback, is trying to pull off a $400,000
scam with a tooled and artificially worn and toned Gallery Mint Museum
replica of the single most celebrated ancient coin, an Athenian
dekadrachm, the equivalent of an 1804 dollar, with about the same
number in existence

Look at the reverse closely. You'll see a linear depression under the
owl's legs. That's where the COPY countermark was tooled off. To
anybody who knows anything about ancient coins, this is a blatant
fake. To some rich know-nothing bidiot, it just might seem like the
opportunity of a lifetime.


I would have thought that ANYONE seeing that someone had a feedback number of 1
with a rating of 66.7% would have decided that this was not a person to trust!

--
Tony Clayton
Coins of the UK : http://www.coinsoftheuk.info
Sent using RISCOS on an Acorn Strong Arm RiscPC

I doubt if anyone with $400,000 to spend will be fooled, if they are
looking for one of these they will probably be very knowledgeable about
them and won't be fooled for a second. Billy


Reid Goldsborough wrote:

Here's a fairly sizeable attempted eBay scam in the works:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=3972667853

The seller, with all of one feedback, is trying to pull off a $400,000
scam with a tooled and artificially worn and toned Gallery Mint Museum
replica of the single most celebrated ancient coin, an Athenian
dekadrachm, the equivalent of an 1804 dollar, with about the same
number in existence

Look at the reverse closely. You'll see a linear depression under the
owl's legs. That's where the COPY countermark was tooled off. To
anybody who knows anything about ancient coins, this is a blatant
fake. To some rich know-nothing bidiot, it just might seem like the
opportunity of a lifetime.

Here's a picture of the same replica without the doctoring:

http://rg.cointalk.org/misc/Dek_replica.html

Scammers always find a way. The solution is education. Document the
forgeries, the tooled replicas, the unmarked replicas, the marked
replicas. Give people a chance to get smart. If they elect not to,
it's on them. A fool and his money and all that. If you shop on eBay
without knowing what you're doing, you'll eventually get stung with a
big or small scam. eBay makes it just too easy for the scammers.

--

Email: (delete "remove this")

Consumer: http://rg.ancients.info/guide
Connoisseur: http://rg.ancients.info/glom
Counterfeit: http://rg.ancients.info/bogos

One can only hope that somebody makes a bid, doesn't pay, and that the
seller has to futz with ebay in regards to the final value fee.
Nothing like a good clusterfutz! oly