OT. Personal responsibility vs. collective one. On this day in History....12th Dec

On Sat, 13 Dec 2003 13:29:45 -0700, Grandpa jsdebooATcomcast.net
wrote:

Dave wrote:

As a white person in the United States, I'm often made to feel guilty
about slavery.

As another white person in the US, our response (stupid IMO) is to give
those we feel sorry for having done something against in the distant
past, some form of monetary renumeration and special treatment, be it
lower university tuition or affirmative action, which is nothing more
than reverse descrimination.

I only mention it because I find it interesting that some find (as I do)
that a simple but sincere "I'm sorry" is appropriate for those things
that occurred so long ago that you personally had no hand in and are not
responsible for.

So I wonder if there will be an "I'm Sorry" stamp one day?


+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Grandpa:

There already is one.

Great Britain - Occasions stamps
Issued: 04 February 2003
Scott #2101 (middle stamp)
http://www.norvic-philatelics.co.uk/2aocc1.jpg

Sorry - FDC
http://www.paston.co.uk/norvic/nvic7.jpg

Sorry - special FDC cancel
http://www.norvic-philatelics.co.uk/2ae8348.jpg

The stamps are also available for personalisation,
and a collectors sheet has been produced as
shown here. Collectors of CATS will be interested
in the SORRY stamp at bottom left.

Mint sheet
http://www.norvic-philatelics.co.uk/occshtlg.jpg
(scan is from pre-issue publicity)

Personalized FDC
http://www.paston.co.uk/norvic/nvic6.jpg

Blair



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One of the strangest dialogues that took place was between the unknown
and apparent offspring of Thomas Jefferson who were black and the known
off-spring. It seems Mr J had a lady on the side. All sorts of
allegations surfaced, then all of a sudden it got real quiet and dropped
out of the news. I'm unsure how it finally played out.

It's in the news still. Some of Jefferson's white descendants are fighting
tooth and nail to ignore what seems to be incontrovertible DNA evidence that
Jefferson did indeed father children with one of his slaves, Sally Hemings,
but others have accepted it as fact and apparently are enjoying having a
suddenly larger family network:
http://charleston.net/stories/071403/wor_14jeff.shtml

Bob Ingraham

"Dave" wrote in message
...
Since my ancestors all imigrated to Canada in the early to mid-1800s,
never owned slaves and never had anything to do with slavery in any form I
cannot feel any guilt.
Should read early to mid-1700s (or 18th Century). All the research
I've done and to make that sort of mistake!
Dave

I am kinda on the fence about societal/political apologies and reparations
for past misdeeds on the part of government, but I think I am more on the
side of the plaintiffs than the defendants, at least in "modern" cases.

Here in British Columbia, I have seen the results of two "programs" that
resulted in huge injustices to innocents.

One (repeated endlessly, it seems, throughout Canada and the U.S.) was the
virtual incarceration of native children in residential schools operated by
various churches which were serving as nothing more nor less than government
agencies to handle the "Indian Problem". The children were taught virtually
nothing. In one school I have read about, the girls were taught to cook and
sew, and the boys were "taught" to clear land for farming. They had been
taken from their homes by the R.C.M.P., separated by sex from their
siblings, and were not allowed to speak anything but English. Their meals in
the winter consisted of oatmeal. Not salted oatmeal with sugar and cream,
but plain boiled oatmeal. Beatings at the hands of priests and nuns were
common. Sexual abuse also was common and has been thoroughly documented.

To one's surprise today, these children grew into dysfunctional adults, too
often raising dysfunctional children. Alcoholism, fetal alcohol syndrome,
and unemployment are endemic in Canada's native population today; my wife
and I rarely had successful native students in our classrooms in Prince
George. Many of the street people we see here in Vancouver every day are
natives who still suffer from this injustice.

The second major injustice I have had second-hand experience with is the
internment of almost the entire Japanese Canadian population of Vancouver,
following the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbour. The Japanese community here
consisted of several thousand productive farmers and fishermen and their
families, living largely in an area known then as "Japantown," just north of
Vancouver's Chinatown, which is still a thriving community. Families were
"transported" -- there's no other word for it -- to bleak "camps" in the
Interior; in reality, there were no camps, because the "Japs" were expected
to build them. Back in Vancouver, their homes and business and fishing boats
and belongings were confiscated and sold. I worked with a teacher in Prince
George whose parents had been among those Japanese who were interned. He
seemed rather stoic about his family's history, but I always felt it was a
stoicism borne more of trauma than acceptance.

In both these cases, it seems only right that the victims and their children
deserve both compensation and apologies from current administrations. In
fact, natives who survived the residential schools have in some cases
received large cash settlements from the churches involved, and have seen
some priests convicted and imprisoned for sexual crimes. One Anglican
diocese actually went bankrupt paying court-ordered settlements.
The Japanese community of British Columbia has received grudging
acknowledgements by government that they were treated grievously, and there
has been some compensation, but hardly an amount that equals their losses.
How much is a hectare of prime farmland in the Fraser Delta worth today? I
wouldn't hazard a guess.

One of my "better" real-photo, postally used postcards pictures a torii gate
that was erected in Japantown in honor of a Royal Visit, in 1912 I believe.
A magnifying glass reveals a scene right out of Japan, with female shoppers
wearing kimonos, street vendors, and signs everywhere in Japanese. Today, by
contrast, Japantown is an urban disaster. I first saw it in the early
1970's, when a few Japanese who had returned still lived there. It was a
slum then; we had to step around men who were sleeping on sidewalks littered
with broken glass and trash. Today it has been "cleaned up" -- an annual
Japanese festival is held in a tired-looking park -- but is devoid of
anything even moderately interesting except for the few Japanese-style
architectural artifacts that have survived. There are soup lines and
"missions," but not one sign of an actual community of any sort, ethnic or
otherwise. Canada's government was guilty of a crime against a people; since
Canada's governments is an ongoing entity, it remains guilty in my opinion.

Bob Ingraham

On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 17:23:55 GMT, Bob Ingraham
wrote:

I am kinda on the fence about societal/political apologies and reparations
for past misdeeds on the part of government, but I think I am more on the
side of the plaintiffs than the defendants, at least in "modern" cases.

Here in British Columbia, I have seen the results of two "programs" that
resulted in huge injustices to innocents.

One (repeated endlessly, it seems, throughout Canada and the U.S.) was the
virtual incarceration of native children in residential schools operated by
various churches which were serving as nothing more nor less than government
agencies to handle the "Indian Problem". The children were taught virtually
nothing. In one school I have read about, the girls were taught to cook and
sew, and the boys were "taught" to clear land for farming. They had been
taken from their homes by the R.C.M.P., separated by sex from their
siblings, and were not allowed to speak anything but English. Their meals in
the winter consisted of oatmeal. Not salted oatmeal with sugar and cream,
but plain boiled oatmeal. Beatings at the hands of priests and nuns were
common. Sexual abuse also was common and has been thoroughly documented.

To one's surprise today, these children grew into dysfunctional adults, too
often raising dysfunctional children. Alcoholism, fetal alcohol syndrome,
and unemployment are endemic in Canada's native population today; my wife
and I rarely had successful native students in our classrooms in Prince
George. Many of the street people we see here in Vancouver every day are
natives who still suffer from this injustice.

The second major injustice I have had second-hand experience with is the
internment of almost the entire Japanese Canadian population of Vancouver,
following the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbour. The Japanese community here
consisted of several thousand productive farmers and fishermen and their
families, living largely in an area known then as "Japantown," just north of
Vancouver's Chinatown, which is still a thriving community. Families were
"transported" -- there's no other word for it -- to bleak "camps" in the
Interior; in reality, there were no camps, because the "Japs" were expected
to build them. Back in Vancouver, their homes and business and fishing boats
and belongings were confiscated and sold. I worked with a teacher in Prince
George whose parents had been among those Japanese who were interned. He
seemed rather stoic about his family's history, but I always felt it was a
stoicism borne more of trauma than acceptance.

In both these cases, it seems only right that the victims and their children
deserve both compensation and apologies from current administrations. In
fact, natives who survived the residential schools have in some cases
received large cash settlements from the churches involved, and have seen
some priests convicted and imprisoned for sexual crimes. One Anglican
diocese actually went bankrupt paying court-ordered settlements.
The Japanese community of British Columbia has received grudging
acknowledgements by government that they were treated grievously, and there
has been some compensation, but hardly an amount that equals their losses.
How much is a hectare of prime farmland in the Fraser Delta worth today? I
wouldn't hazard a guess.

One of my "better" real-photo, postally used postcards pictures a torii gate
that was erected in Japantown in honor of a Royal Visit, in 1912 I believe.
A magnifying glass reveals a scene right out of Japan, with female shoppers
wearing kimonos, street vendors, and signs everywhere in Japanese. Today, by
contrast, Japantown is an urban disaster. I first saw it in the early
1970's, when a few Japanese who had returned still lived there. It was a
slum then; we had to step around men who were sleeping on sidewalks littered
with broken glass and trash. Today it has been "cleaned up" -- an annual
Japanese festival is held in a tired-looking park -- but is devoid of
anything even moderately interesting except for the few Japanese-style
architectural artifacts that have survived. There are soup lines and
"missions," but not one sign of an actual community of any sort, ethnic or
otherwise. Canada's government was guilty of a crime against a people; since
Canada's governments is an ongoing entity, it remains guilty in my opinion.

....and so is Japan against the U.S. ... still no "formal" apology.

2 wrongs don't make a right, but...

Tracy Barber

On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 17:23:55 GMT, Bob Ingraham
wrote:

I am kinda on the fence about societal/political apologies and reparations
for past misdeeds on the part of government, but I think I am more on the
side of the plaintiffs than the defendants, at least in "modern" cases.

Here in British Columbia, I have seen the results of two "programs" that
resulted in huge injustices to innocents.

Just a follow up... I don't want to sound insensitive to those that
have bene "wronged" like Bob mentioned, but it arises from the mass
hysteria that was war.

BTW, I have, as well as others, helped out a school like Bob mentioned
by sending countless stamps to them, while there was a stamp program
in place. Not as bleak as the palce Bob mentioned, but fairly
close...

Tracy Barber

"Victor Manta" wrote in message
...
Peter,

Therefore, as I understand your opinion, the First Minister of Mongolia
should indeed present his excuses to Russia, China and to dozens of other
countries, because the atrocities committed by his ancestors in the
distant
past *did* happen.

And that, consequently, the official, elected representatives of different
native tribes worldwide should officially present their apologies for the
massacres that they permanently perpetrated in the past against all who
happened to live on the same territory (natives like them or not)?

I just wonder if I speak here about a third category of massacres and
injustices, about which any remembrance is politically incorrect...

I continue to think that a country shows its respect for the humans of the
past, present and future by implementing a proper political system and not
by (thousand of) reciprocal excuses for times when the individual rights
weren't properly observed (by nobody!).

Victor Manta

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
-

No, Victor, you do not understand my opinion at all. I am not saying any
government should apologize for anything done in the past - nor am I saying
that they *shouldn't* apologize. I was pointing out only that an apology
does not necessarily imply guilt or responsibility on the part the the group
giving the apology. That's all - nothing more.

Peter G. Aitken

--
Victor Manta


"Peter Aitken" wrote in message
.com...
"Victor Manta" wrote in message
...
Peter,

Therefore, as I understand your opinion, the First Minister of Mongolia
should indeed present his excuses to Russia, China and to dozens of
other
countries, because the atrocities committed by his ancestors in the
distant
past *did* happen.

And that, consequently, the official, elected representatives of
different
native tribes worldwide should officially present their apologies for
the
massacres that they permanently perpetrated in the past against all who
happened to live on the same territory (natives like them or not)?

I just wonder if I speak here about a third category of massacres and
injustices, about which any remembrance is politically incorrect...

I continue to think that a country shows its respect for the humans of
the
past, present and future by implementing a proper political system and
not
by (thousand of) reciprocal excuses for times when the individual rights
weren't properly observed (by nobody!).

Victor Manta


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
-

No, Victor, you do not understand my opinion at all. I am not saying any
government should apologize for anything done in the past - nor am I
saying
that they *shouldn't* apologize. I was pointing out only that an apology
does not necessarily imply guilt or responsibility on the part the the
group
giving the apology. That's all - nothing more.

Peter G. Aitken

Are you sure that I don't understand it? How about the following

Universal Declaration (?)

In a time when the individual right weren't respected either by your people
or by our one, we express our deeply regret for all atrocities, including
for those perpetrated by our ancestors.

Signed
The Prime Minister

Is it OK for you in this form?

Victor Manta

No, Victor, you do not understand my opinion at all. I am not saying any
government should apologize for anything done in the past - nor am I
saying
that they *shouldn't* apologize. I was pointing out only that an apology
does not necessarily imply guilt or responsibility on the part the the
group
giving the apology. That's all - nothing more.

Peter G. Aitken

Canada's government was guilty of a crime against a people; since
Canada's governments is an ongoing entity, it remains guilty in my opinion.

A fitting commentary Bob, Thank you.
The first half adequately covers the Aboriginal tragedy here.
I guess the word that broadly covers the topic is empathy.
I wonder the history book if role reversal,
A Black Government removing children from white families,
and fostering them to black families for better integration,care
and education.



(Remove gum to reply)