Where did all the collectors go?

Make that 52,575 - I just subscribed todayG.

Dakota wrote:
Hey all:

There was an article in the November 24th issue of Linn's - not really
an article, rather a disclosure, giving their subscription statistics.
All publications are required by law (here in the US) to publish this
information once yearly. Many newspapers publish it in every issue -
but, I digress.

The information given states that Linn's has a subscription total of
52,574. this comes out to one collector per 6032 individuals
(assuming a total population of about 280 million in the US). I'm
sure that some of these are 'international subscriptions' so the total
would be even more meagre.

I've not done a 'headcount', but I've a feeling that there are more
dealers in the U.S. than there are subscribers to Linn's.

Ok, there may be some collectors who do not subscribe to Linn's (or
any of the other publications) - but how many out there are able to
add to their collections without having some trade magazine at hand?
A few (very few) may be blessed with several dealers in their locale.
This discounts those of us in places like Dog Trot, Texas or
Chilblains, Montana. I'm not discounting the power of the net - most,
well many, dealers do have a web presence. I wonder how many
collectors depend solely upon that venue to add to their collections.

I believe the subject of dimishing collectors has been broached here
previously so I may be trodding a well worn path. My thoughts are
that considering the (probably) negative growth of the hobby, then how
can the value (per dealers and the various catalogs) of stamps keep
expanding to obscene levels? I don't beleive all the good stamps are
being snapped up by those "Nigerian Interests"!

Or, perhaps, maybe, just could be - I missed something very obvious.
If so, I'd sure as heck appreciate someone filling me in on this
'unknown' (to me anyway) factor so that I could better understand it.

Handshakes,


Dakota

Dear Rein,

I have never questioned the necessity and importance of philatelic printed
magazines, which I sometimes read with interest.

My points rather we

- the decrease of the number of collectors, that is a fact
- also the fact that if the association membership fees go higher, the
number of members is at risk to go in the opposite direction

Just to mention that some months ago the SBZ has cancelled (for savings
reasons, as they told me in a letter) the pages related to new issues, which
were the most interesting for me, an unscientific, intuitive and childish
stamp collector. :-) I'm quite sure that even with higher membership fees
(foreseen for the journal) these pages won't be restored anymore.

Interestingly enough, the redaction of the SBZ (remainder: the associations
magazine) sent me several pieces of BBZ (Zumstein) magazine, and told me
that I can find there what I'm searching for. And indeed, I have found there
what I needed, so now I'm asking myself which money is better spent, that
for the association (which I don't need, excepting for the journal and for
the participation in the FIP webmasters contests -- which probably won't
anyway take place ) and its less interesting journal or for the BBZ (which
is not only more interesting for me, but also less expensive)...

Victor Manta

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"Rein Bakhuizen van den Brink" wrote in message
...
dear Victor,

the philatelic magazines may serve different purposes. Some rather
ephemeral like publishing society meetings, obituaries, etc; advertising;
new world issues; and so on...

But avery important role of the magazines is their content as it goes for
articles that reflect research being done - rather more in-depth stuff
that
won't reach anybody and won't get preserved for future generations.

I'm writing a monthly column in a Dutch magazine and I realize that the
way
I'm describing new Dutch stamps [and Begian as well] will be more or less
the
only manner in which the history of modern stamps will be documented as
now
all Postal Authorities like to forget to write their history, dont' think
it's
even necessary and throw away everything what's more than a year old.
The Belgian Postal authorities had to base their new policy on the parcel
post
upon the article I wrote in June 2003 aobut their 'Kilopost'.

I think it's vital that the contemporary history of the stamp is written
down
and published in a magazine that has a thorough base and can be re-read in
a few
years time. There is no guarantee that web-based publications will last
for more than
a few years.. On paper publications may survive us all.

gtx, Rein


On 20 Nov 2003 08:56:59 , "Victor Manta" wrote:
To directly answer the question asked in the Subject line: the existing
ones
are slowly but surely passing by, and the influx (of young and old) is
smaller than the loss.

The Swiss philatelic association has recently raised the fees paid by its
members, in order to finance its own journal, SBZ (or, like they said, to
maintain and even improve its quality). SBZ is distributed to each of its
members.

The reason for raising fees is, obviously, the reduction of the number of
stamp collectors. The method is, of course, controversial...

Victor Manta

"Tracy Barber" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 08:56:59 +0100, "Victor Manta"
wrote:

To directly answer the question asked in the Subject line: the existing
ones
are slowly but surely passing by, and the influx (of young and old) is
smaller than the loss.

And you know this how? Do tell!
...
Tracy Barber

With pleasure (anything for you, Tracy)

- The very important reduction of the number of those who buy the new Swiss
stamps (I have already written about this on rcsd), with the perverse result
that the quality of new stamps isn't increasing, to say so...
- The permanent loss of members by the stamp collectors association, due to
passing away and to less new members. I know that a minority of collectors
are members, but there is a proportionality here.
- What write the philatelic magazines from other Western countries about the
tendencies in our King of hobbies.
- My personal observation at exhibitions in what concerns the number and the
age of visitors.
- The interest in stamps of my own daughter, who played with stamps as a
child, but who then switched to Internet and computer games (and who learned
from them more and more useful things than she could ever learn from stamps,
for example the English language and the use of computers, both her daily
"tools" now).

Do you need more? Maybe other participants will tell you.

BTW, how much time do you spend (for non-professional reasons) on your
computer(s)? Probably like me, which means much too much. But why, because
this time is obviously subtracted from that dedicated to philately?

Victor Manta

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Philatelic Webmasters Organization: http://pwmo.org
Art on Stamps: http://values.ch
Romania Shown by Its Stamps: http://marci-postale.com
Communism on Stamps: http://www.values.ch/Communism/
Spanish Africa: http://www.values.ch/sna-site/
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---------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 20:00:24 +0100, "Victor Manta"
wrote:

"Tracy Barber" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 08:56:59 +0100, "Victor Manta"
wrote:

To directly answer the question asked in the Subject line: the existing
ones
are slowly but surely passing by, and the influx (of young and old) is
smaller than the loss.

And you know this how? Do tell!
...
Tracy Barber

With pleasure (anything for you, Tracy)

Thank you, kind sir!

- The very important reduction of the number of those who buy the new Swiss
stamps (I have already written about this on rcsd), with the perverse result
that the quality of new stamps isn't increasing, to say so...

Let's look at Switzerland for a collecting country, by itself. Other
than the classics, how many people (here) are collecting Swiss stamps
as a matter of course?

Compared to other countries, Switzerland is quite small - on the
collecting scale?

- The permanent loss of members by the stamp collectors association, due to
passing away and to less new members. I know that a minority of collectors
are members, but there is a proportionality here.

In the clubs I hav joined, there aren't that many members anyway. One
has 1000 (numbered) and the other I don't know the count.

APS was moaning about membership, but remember - advertisement has
shifted a lot from paper to TV / 'Net. I have yet to see an APS
commercial on TV.

- What write the philatelic magazines from other Western countries about the
tendencies in our King of hobbies.

Yes, yes - the old ways of counting. It seems, though, that few have
attempted to correlate info from the past 15 years regarding 'Net
usage of said collectors and how they get their stamps. Not all is
coming from the trade mags and more.

- My personal observation at exhibitions in what concerns the number and the
age of visitors.

We have discussed this. Taking kids to these expos is almost sadistic
in nature! Most old farts (I'm getting there soon enough) would
rather look at exhibits and hawk with dealers rather than bring the
kiddies to the show. There, are, though, some exceptions as we have
seen written about here.

Just because the "new guard" hasn't been seen heavily - don't discount
the hen's output before the eggs are layed. The "new" guard" will
come around and do the shows in due time.

If not, a new way - like the 'Net, will provide expo enough
capabilities for many.

It's no longer necessary - except to get the obligatory medals and
prizes - to show off one's goodies LIVE.

- The interest in stamps of my own daughter, who played with stamps as a
child, but who then switched to Internet and computer games (and who learned
from them more and more useful things than she could ever learn from stamps,
for example the English language and the use of computers, both her daily
"tools" now).

Ahhh, the old bait and switch routine! They'll get ya every time!
:^) Not every kid is going to want to collect stamps. I keep showing
Spike my stamps, especially cat stamps and other critters. All he
does is sniff and look at them. Once in a while he tries to play with
them, with thos tong-like claws he has, but he's like some of our
spear-tong collectors who've not mastered the touch yet. :^P

Do you need more? Maybe other participants will tell you.

Yes, I do. I am FIRMLY NOT CONVINCED that stamp collecting is "dying"
as so many pundits keep tossing our way as they seem to espouse
"abandon hope, all ye who enter here" and do nothing to further the
cause.

As you well know, I recycle stamps in all forms. This keeps the hobby
going. If all of the pundits who writhe with fear over the hobby
dying out would do the same, then there'd be no fear of losing the
base that's out there and even increasing it.

Subscription to the mags / rags does not always a collector make!
Subscription to the new issues from specific govts. does not always a
collector make!
Subscription and joining every society out there does not always a
collector make!

Ad nauseum...

BTW, how much time do you spend (for non-professional reasons) on your
computer(s)? Probably like me, which means much too much.

Not as much as one would think. I get off my PC and interact with a
lot more real people more times than not. It's not the novelty it
once was. It's a tool to get something done.

But why, because
this time is obviously subtracted from that dedicated to philately?

Because we can't be devoted to it 24 / 7. That would be foolish.

A healthy life has a healthy balance of "things" in it. Too much of
something may take away from other "things" we may be missing.

After a while, many people get a focus on their PC and do the "things"
that interest them instead of wandering around aimlessly in
cyberspace.

Of course, there are addicts out there that can't put down the mouse.
I am not one of them. I have to get away. It makes me physically
uncomfortable after a while. 20+ years in front of a PC will do that
to some of us! (Programming, etc.)

I usually sort stamps while a TV show is on. I get the background
noise / some interest and then get a LOT done with my philatelic
interests.

I do believe that stamp collectors have a future out there. I also
believe that most of them have a life and don't tweak every second
with a stamp album.

I guess, if you ask "Where did all the collectors go?" then you just
haven't looked hard enough to answer your own question.

Tracy Barber

"Tracy Barber" wrote in message
...
snip

I do believe that stamp collectors have a future out there. I also
believe that most of them have a life and don't tweak every second
with a stamp album.

Me too, if not then I wouldn't do all what I'm trying to do for stamp
collecting.

I guess, if you ask "Where did all the collectors go?" then you just
haven't looked hard enough to answer your own question.

Tracy Barber

Sorry, here you mistake me for Dakota :-)

Anyway, I will be able to definitively answer the question only after I will
be together with those who are already gone, which, I hope, will take some
time from now.

Victor Manta

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Art on Stamps: http://values.ch
Romania Shown by Its Stamps: http://marci-postale.com
Communism on Stamps: http://www.values.ch/Communism/
Spanish Africa: http://www.values.ch/sna-site/
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---------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Grandpa" jsdebooATcomcast.net wrote in message
...
Make that 52,575 - I just subscribed todayG.


Congrats! I'll bet you stay with them for a good long time.
(Now if I could just find the time to start catching up on that stack I've
got of the past five issues...........)

Mike

| I think it's vital that the contemporary history of the stamp is written down
| and published in a magazine that has a thorough base and can be re-read in a few
| years time. There is no guarantee that web-based publications will last for more than
| a few years.. On paper publications may survive us all.
| gtx, Rein

Yay!
heartily agree.
As people here would understand,
delving through my hundreds of 30 year old mags
is very enjoyable.

Are there any countries where the number of collectors
is increasing? (Russia, China Afghanistan Iraq....?)

The glass is half full Dakota. So long as governments continue to promote
stamps and collecting the hobby will go on. Look at all the people (est.
600,000) in the US that accumulate mint stamps. The collectors are as
diverse as ever. The only trend I see is people having fun at collecting
without the aid of the big bucks dealer. Some things never change, because
this is the way the hobby got it's start.

In my collecting area there may be fewer collectors, but the collections are
larger. Every year there are more and more articles and the readership is as
sophisticated as ever. The only impact I have experienced is a decline in
the number of postal history dealers in my immediate area. Still, all I have
to do is go to a major show once a year and I seem to find everything I
need.

I believe that today's hobby favors the specialist. The more knowledgeable
the collector, the better the experience. Just last month I found a rare
plate variety of the US 1857 Issue in a national auction. This stamp I have
been hunting for about 10 years. The only other one I've seen at auction in
the intervening period was way over priced because the seller knew how rare
it was. This time I was able to bid the garden variety catalog price and won
the lot. I think I'm going to have the bragging rights with all my friends
for about the next year.

Keep stamping.

-a



"Dakota" wrote in message
om...
Hey all:

There was an article in the November 24th issue of Linn's - not really
an article, rather a disclosure, giving their subscription statistics.
All publications are required by law (here in the US) to publish this
information once yearly. Many newspapers publish it in every issue -
but, I digress.

The information given states that Linn's has a subscription total of
52,574. this comes out to one collector per 6032 individuals
(assuming a total population of about 280 million in the US). I'm
sure that some of these are 'international subscriptions' so the total
would be even more meagre.

I've not done a 'headcount', but I've a feeling that there are more
dealers in the U.S. than there are subscribers to Linn's.

Ok, there may be some collectors who do not subscribe to Linn's (or
any of the other publications) - but how many out there are able to
add to their collections without having some trade magazine at hand?
A few (very few) may be blessed with several dealers in their locale.
This discounts those of us in places like Dog Trot, Texas or
Chilblains, Montana. I'm not discounting the power of the net - most,
well many, dealers do have a web presence. I wonder how many
collectors depend solely upon that venue to add to their collections.

I believe the subject of dimishing collectors has been broached here
previously so I may be trodding a well worn path. My thoughts are
that considering the (probably) negative growth of the hobby, then how
can the value (per dealers and the various catalogs) of stamps keep
expanding to obscene levels? I don't beleive all the good stamps are
being snapped up by those "Nigerian Interests"!

Or, perhaps, maybe, just could be - I missed something very obvious.
If so, I'd sure as heck appreciate someone filling me in on this
'unknown' (to me anyway) factor so that I could better understand it.

Handshakes,


Dakota

Well, I subscribed to Linns for a few years, and even wrote some
articles for them. I also subscribed to Stamps for a few years and wrote
some articles for them. I was a SPA, GPS and APS member at one time or
another and wrote for all of their publications. Do you see a pattern
here?

I only belong to some military groups now (MPHS) etc. I make most of the
NY shows, those upstate in Westchester and some of the small ones on LI.
I used to drive to NJ for NOJEX but haven't done that in years. I can
still hit Nassau Street and the surrounding areas, and of course have
Ebay and all the URLs on the Internet (Luft has something like 4000+
doesn't he?).

The reason I quit most publications is that in order to survive they
must write for a general audience and as I get more and more specialized
I can go 4-5 (and more) issues without finding anything of interest. I
can find some data on Google, and a lot by writing to other specialists
by private correspondence. Most collectors are willing to share as long
as you reciprocate.