Gold prices plummet!

Mr. Jaggers wrote:
George D wrote:
Mr. Jaggers wrote:

It doesn't take a genius to observe that the people who show up at
the townhall meetings, teaparties, and tax protest rallies, carrying
signs with the President's image overlain with swastikas and Hitler
images and yelling about how they don't want the government in their
lives at all, seem to always be those who have a secure healthcare
plan. I have yet to see an unemployed or "pre-existing condition"
person speak out against some form of guaranteed coverage, not a
single one. It's always the "I've got mine, screw everybody else"
attitude that dominates, leaving a disgusting stink in the room
every time healthcare is scheduled to be discussed.
I agree that we need to fix our health care system. However from what
I have read and seen what the current plans being discussed are
offering are not a GOOD fix. We need to control the lawyers and their
malpractice claims. And we need to fix the out of control excessive
costs that individuals without insurance pay.

My wife is on Medicare Advantage. She gets two prescription drugs. The
retail price for one medicine $51.99 this is the price a person
without insurance would pay. She paid $5.00 co-pay, the insurance Co.
paid $2.83 total $7.83 the other medicine was $54.99 retail and
$5.00 + $6.27 total $11.27. This disparity is what needs to be fixed.

My Daughter law with employer insurance had back surgery (Successful
BTY) total Hospital Bill was about $25,000 this included one night in
the hospital. Total they received with copays and insurance approx
$5,000. This is why people without insurance can't afford medical
care, they would have to pay the total $25,000. This is another
example of what needs to be fixed.

Obama care won't fix this or maybe it will if he gets everything he
wants and we move closer to socialism.

Socialism is not a quantum concept. It is a continuum, not a state of being
zero or one. "Closer" to socialism really has no meaning when you
understand this. That is what is so ludicrous about these people who scream
"Down with socialized medecine!" while they at the very moment are enjoying
Medicare or some other program being furnished by the government. Media
windbags always conjure up the vision of France as being an example of
rampant socialism (God knows we don't ever want to be accused of being
"French-looking"). There has only been one successful purely socialistic
society in all of history, and that is described in the fourth chapter of
Acts. The rest have all practiced mixed economies, and France is no
exception. Repressive societies such as Nazi Germany and Stalinist Russia
were nothing other than simpering "I've got mine, screw you" dictatorships
wearing fancy, engraved nametags that cynically included the word
"Socialist" in their titles.

As far as the United States is concerned, as soon as you have the words "to
promote the general welfare" in your Constitution, you have a commitment to
socialism, so are we going to say that the Founders didn't know what they
were talking about? The thought that a nation of 300,000,000 today, as
opposed to the 4,000,000 as reported in the 1790 census, would not practice
a more advanced degree of socialism is pure bunkum.

Your use of the expression "Obamacare" betrays both your news sources and
your mindset. All the proposals you have listed above have indeed been on
the table. Every single one of them has been shouted down by people on the
right, people who have health insurance - darn good health insurance. From
what you report about your own medical experiences, you have darn good
health insurance, as do I - at least for now. But I'm not yet 65, and mine
turns into a pumpkin at midnight on December 31, 2009, and then I'm going to
be in one hell of a fix if "Obamacare" fails. Limbaugh brags about not
having health insurance at all, but then when you have a contract worth half
a billion, you can pay cash for whatever happens to ail you. The rest of us
rise or fall on a combination of luck and whatever health plan we are lucky
to enjoy.

I hate to always keep bringing this up, but instead of going by what we
"read and see" in the media, which are sources motivated by self-interests,
not ours, we need to consult the primary sources - the legislative documents
themselves. Unfortunately, the majority seems to be content to bypass that
critical step and shoot off its mouth based on what somebody else "says"
about the topic at hand. The example of the one Legislator who has now
proclaimed he will not read the proposed legislation, but vote against it
anyway, is a disgrace, a sad commentary on American life in the 2000s.

James the Radical


As the documents change daily I know not how to do that and even if I
could find the most current of them I am not sufficiently knowledgeable
to be able to understand what they say and than determine what the real
effect will be if enacted. Damn even those voting on them don't read
them as you mention in your last sentence.

FWIW I do not listen to Limbaugh and the sources are from both right
wing and left wing news. My home pages are azcentral, BBC, and Foxnews
anything else would only cause me to become more confused.

I only know that anytime the US government or any other government or
quasi government gets started on anything they must grow or die. This is
true from your labor union, HOA, city, state, federal, fire, or other group.

If the current bills pass into law it will only be the beginning of a
long down hill battle of more freedoms lost. One only needs to look at
what we had 40 or 50 years ago and where we are now to know what a
slippery slope we are on and as the years pass how much faster we are
slipping. You are a teacher of history so you must know what we have
lost in freedoms during this period. Many of the laws could be
considered for our own best interest BUT every one of them reduces our
ability to function independently. We are being taught to let big
brother take care of us and not learn to look out for ourselves.

I am already on Medicare and with any luck my care will not suffer to
much in the years before I pass on to the next world I worry about my
children and grandchildren. As my examples show medical system needs to
be fixed but from what I can see what they are doing with (Obamacare)and
I take much of my information from speeches he has made not the news or
spin doctors, is NIMHO not what is needed.

George



--
Government is a voracious monster that must have your labor to control
YOU! Your money is your liberty. The taxes you pay gently enslave you,
and eventually destroy any human liberty you have. Fear government, pray
for the country.

George D wrote:
Mr. Jaggers wrote:
George D wrote:
Mr. Jaggers wrote:

It doesn't take a genius to observe that the people who show up at
the townhall meetings, teaparties, and tax protest rallies,
carrying signs with the President's image overlain with swastikas
and Hitler images and yelling about how they don't want the
government in their lives at all, seem to always be those who have
a secure healthcare plan. I have yet to see an unemployed or
"pre-existing condition" person speak out against some form of
guaranteed coverage, not a single one. It's always the "I've got
mine, screw everybody else" attitude that dominates, leaving a
disgusting stink in the room every time healthcare is scheduled to
be discussed.
I agree that we need to fix our health care system. However from
what I have read and seen what the current plans being discussed are
offering are not a GOOD fix. We need to control the lawyers and
their malpractice claims. And we need to fix the out of control
excessive costs that individuals without insurance pay.

My wife is on Medicare Advantage. She gets two prescription drugs.
The retail price for one medicine $51.99 this is the price a person
without insurance would pay. She paid $5.00 co-pay, the insurance
Co. paid $2.83 total $7.83 the other medicine was $54.99 retail and
$5.00 + $6.27 total $11.27. This disparity is what needs to be
fixed. My Daughter law with employer insurance had back surgery
(Successful
BTY) total Hospital Bill was about $25,000 this included one night
in the hospital. Total they received with copays and insurance
approx $5,000. This is why people without insurance can't afford
medical care, they would have to pay the total $25,000. This is
another example of what needs to be fixed.

Obama care won't fix this or maybe it will if he gets everything he
wants and we move closer to socialism.

Socialism is not a quantum concept. It is a continuum, not a state
of being zero or one. "Closer" to socialism really has no meaning
when you understand this. That is what is so ludicrous about these
people who scream "Down with socialized medecine!" while they at the
very moment are enjoying Medicare or some other program being
furnished by the government. Media windbags always conjure up the
vision of France as being an example of rampant socialism (God knows
we don't ever want to be accused of being "French-looking"). There
has only been one successful purely socialistic society in all of
history, and that is described in the fourth chapter of Acts. The
rest have all practiced mixed economies, and France is no exception.
Repressive societies such as Nazi Germany and Stalinist Russia were
nothing other than simpering "I've got mine, screw you"
dictatorships wearing fancy, engraved nametags that cynically
included the word "Socialist" in their titles. As far as the United
States is concerned, as soon as you have the
words "to promote the general welfare" in your Constitution, you
have a commitment to socialism, so are we going to say that the
Founders didn't know what they were talking about? The thought that
a nation of 300,000,000 today, as opposed to the 4,000,000 as
reported in the 1790 census, would not practice a more advanced
degree of socialism is pure bunkum. Your use of the expression
"Obamacare" betrays both your news
sources and your mindset. All the proposals you have listed above
have indeed been on the table. Every single one of them has been
shouted down by people on the right, people who have health
insurance - darn good health insurance. From what you report about
your own medical experiences, you have darn good health insurance,
as do I - at least for now. But I'm not yet 65, and mine turns into
a pumpkin at midnight on December 31, 2009, and then I'm going to be
in one hell of a fix if "Obamacare" fails. Limbaugh brags about not
having health insurance at all, but then when you have a contract
worth half a billion, you can pay cash for whatever happens to ail
you. The rest of us rise or fall on a combination of luck and
whatever health plan we are lucky to enjoy. I hate to always keep
bringing this up, but instead of going by what
we "read and see" in the media, which are sources motivated by
self-interests, not ours, we need to consult the primary sources -
the legislative documents themselves. Unfortunately, the majority
seems to be content to bypass that critical step and shoot off its
mouth based on what somebody else "says" about the topic at hand. The
example of the one Legislator who has now proclaimed he will not
read the proposed legislation, but vote against it anyway, is a
disgrace, a sad commentary on American life in the 2000s. James the
Radical


As the documents change daily I know not how to do that and even if I
could find the most current of them I am not sufficiently
knowledgeable to be able to understand what they say and than determine
what the
real effect will be if enacted. Damn even those voting on them don't
read them as you mention in your last sentence.

I would be hard-pressed to name a single piece of legislation in all of our
history of which the effects were precisely known at the moment of passage.
There's always a roll of the dice involved, and we find out later, sometimes
much later, exactly what the legislation has brought forth. Even the
decision to declare our independence was a calculated risk, and there was by
no stretch of the imagination unanimity on that decision.

FWIW I do not listen to Limbaugh and the sources are from both right
wing and left wing news. My home pages are azcentral, BBC, and Foxnews
anything else would only cause me to become more confused.

That's OK, as long as you are willing to acknowledge that those news
sources, every one, are commercial or corporate in their nature, and have
agendas that influence the way they interpret and present the news.

I only know that anytime the US government or any other government or
quasi government gets started on anything they must grow or die. This
is true from your labor union, HOA, city, state, federal, fire, or
other group.

It should be obvious that as our population has grown from 4 million to 300
million since our founding, that the growth of government is quite
inevitable. As we carefully nurture and prune trees, so should we nurture
and prune the government, to assure proper growth. We cannot afford to
oppose growth, but we can control the nature of the growth.

If the current bills pass into law it will only be the beginning of a
long down hill battle of more freedoms lost. One only needs to look at
what we had 40 or 50 years ago and where we are now to know what a
slippery slope we are on and as the years pass how much faster we are
slipping. You are a teacher of history so you must know what we have
lost in freedoms during this period. Many of the laws could be
considered for our own best interest BUT every one of them reduces our
ability to function independently. We are being taught to let big
brother take care of us and not learn to look out for ourselves.

The "beginning" of a downhill battle? We've been at this now for 220 years!
That said, I am at a loss to even start a list of freedoms that we have lost
over the past 50 years. Perhaps you can help me out here, sometimes I miss
things.

I am already on Medicare and with any luck my care will not suffer to
much in the years before I pass on to the next world I worry about my
children and grandchildren. As my examples show medical system needs
to be fixed but from what I can see what they are doing with
(Obamacare)and I take much of my information from speeches he has made not
the news
or spin doctors, is NIMHO not what is needed.

So far, "they" have done absolutely nothing with "Obamacare" (there, I went
ahead and used the word, holding my nose all the while) other than talk and
yell about it. I personally am withholding all judgments until I see and
understand the proposal in its final form. I may be pleasantly surprised,
or I may recoil in disgust. But then and only then will it be appropriate
for me to be shooting off my mouth about it. I'm still an optimist, though,
because I still have faith in my country. How about you?

James a/k/a Pollyanna

The Giant Brain wrote:
"George D" wrote in message
...
Obama care won't fix this or maybe it will if he gets everything he wants and
we move closer to socialism.

And that would be a bad thing because....




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6H63CD7uQA&NR=1

--
Government is a voracious monster that must have your labor to control
YOU! Your money is your liberty. The taxes you pay gently enslave you,
and eventually destroy any human liberty you have. Fear government, pray
for the country.

"George D" wrote in message
...



snipped

As the documents change daily I know not how to do that and even if I
could find the most current of them I am not sufficiently knowledgeable to
be able to understand what they say and than determine what the real
effect will be if enacted. Damn even those voting on them don't read them
as you mention in your last sentence.

FWIW I do not listen to Limbaugh and the sources are from both right
wing and left wing news. My home pages are azcentral, BBC, and Foxnews
anything else would only cause me to become more confused.

I only know that anytime the US government or any other government or
quasi government gets started on anything they must grow or die. This is
true from your labor union, HOA, city, state, federal, fire, or other
group.

If the current bills pass into law it will only be the beginning of a long
down hill battle of more freedoms lost. One only needs to look at what we
had 40 or 50 years ago and where we are now to know what a slippery slope
we are on and as the years pass how much faster we are slipping. You are a
teacher of history so you must know what we have lost in freedoms during
this period. Many of the laws could be considered for our own best
interest BUT every one of them reduces our ability to function
independently. We are being taught to let big brother take care of us and
not learn to look out for ourselves.

I was in college 50 years ago. The only freedoms I have lost since that
time, other than the freedom to be drafted, have been things like checking
in at an airport, walking out the door on the tarmack to navigate a flight
of stairs to my flight, and then lighting up a smoke. Now we have to get to
airport a couple hours early so our selves and belongings can be searched.
And smoke? Forgetaboutit. I miss our old freedom there, but then we all
have to go through the same thing. Any other "freedoms" I might have lost
in the past 50 years are equally as trivial and have little to do with our
government, per se. Which freedoms were you thinking of?


I am already on Medicare and with any luck my care will not suffer to much
in the years before I pass on to the next world I worry about my children
and grandchildren. As my examples show medical system needs to be fixed
but from what I can see what they are doing with (Obamacare)and I take
much of my information from speeches he has made not the news or spin
doctors, is NIMHO not what is needed.

I'm on Medicare, too. But I don't spend much time wringing my hands over
what changes might happen in years to come. I'm just happy that between
Medicare and my Blue Cross secondary, my recent $25K total knee replacement
cost me zero, except for some $20 copays at the outpatient rehab facility.

IMO, we should determine an efficient and affordable way to help that
portion of the 47 million uninsured (minus illegals) who can't afford health
insurance. Perhaps this could be done with the money saved from
eliminating that good old "waste and fraud" that we had apparently been
ignoring until we suddenly needed to evoke it as an offset for other
expensive proposals. Must be pretty easy to do, according to those who
advocate it. No need to revamp the whole health care system in one swoop.
First, try to get most people at least some sort of coverage, sort of like
auto or fire insurance to cover the big ticket items. Further tweaks can
come gradually as we see how the first crack evolves.

The Giant Brain wrote:
"George D" wrote in message
...
Obama care won't fix this or maybe it will if he gets everything he wants and
we move closer to socialism.

And that would be a bad thing because....


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6H63CD7uQA&NR=1

--
Government is a voracious monster that must have your labor to control
YOU! Your money is your liberty. The taxes you pay gently enslave you,
and eventually destroy any human liberty you have. Fear government, pray
for the country.

Mr. Jaggers wrote:

The "beginning" of a downhill battle? We've been at this now for 220 years!
That said, I am at a loss to even start a list of freedoms that we have lost
over the past 50 years. Perhaps you can help me out here, sometimes I miss
things.


Lets start here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USA_PATRIOT_Act


The USA PATRIOT Act, commonly known as the "Patriot Act", is a statute
enacted by the United States Government that President George W. Bush
signed into law on October 26, 2001. The contrived acronym stands for
Uniting and Strengthening America by Providing Appropriate Tools
Required to Intercept and Obstruct Terrorism Act of 2001 (Public Law
Pub.L. 107-56).

The Act increases the ability of law enforcement agencies to search
telephone, e-mail communications, medical, financial, and other records;
eases restrictions on foreign intelligence gathering within the United
States; expands the Secretary of the Treasury’s authority to regulate
financial transactions, particularly those involving foreign individuals
and entities; and enhances the discretion of law enforcement and
immigration authorities in detaining and deporting immigrants suspected
of terrorism-related acts. The act also expands the definition of
terrorism to include domestic terrorism, thus enlarging the number of
activities to which the USA PATRIOT Act’s expanded law enforcement
powers can be applied.

The Act was passed by wide margins in both houses of Congress and was
supported by members of both the Republican and Democratic parties.
Opponents of the law have criticized its authorization of indefinite
detentions of immigrants; searches through which law enforcement
officers search a home or business without the owner’s or the occupant’s
permission or knowledge; the expanded use of National Security Letters,
which allows the FBI to search telephone, e-mail, and financial records
without a court order; and the expanded access of law enforcement
agencies to business records, including library and financial records.
Since its passage, several legal challenges have been brought against
the act, and Federal courts have ruled that a number of provisions are
unconstitutional.

Many of the act's provisions were to sunset beginning December 31, 2005,
approximately 4 years after its passage. In the months preceding the
sunset date, supporters of the act pushed to make its sunsetting
provisions permanent, while critics sought to revise various sections to
enhance civil liberty protections. In July 2005, the U.S. Senate passed
a reauthorization bill with substantial changes to several sections of
the act, while the House reauthorization bill kept most of the act's
original language. The two bills were then reconciled in a conference
committee that was criticized by Senators from both the Republican and
Democratic parties for ignoring civil liberty concerns.[1] The bill,
which removed most of the changes from the Senate version, passed
Congress on March 2, 2006 and was signed into law by President George W.
Bush on March 9 and 10th, 2006.


--
Government is a voracious monster that must have your labor to control
YOU! Your money is your liberty. The taxes you pay gently enslave you,
and eventually destroy any human liberty you have. Fear government, pray
for the country.

George D wrote:
The Giant Brain wrote:
"George D" wrote in message
...
Obama care won't fix this or maybe it will if he gets everything he
wants and we move closer to socialism.

And that would be a bad thing because....


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6H63CD7uQA&NR=1

I notice that the JQP in this 1948 propaganda piece was interested in
reading the primary document, something we virtually never hear of these
days. "Oh, it's just such hard reading." "Oh, I just don't have time to
read it." "Oh, I'll just get my news from ______ (fill in the blank with
your favorite media blowhard)." Wait, there's some crank on rcc who keeps
harping on that very topic, but no one ever listens to that old fart.

And what's with that last line: "Working together to produce an
ever-greater abundance of material and spiritual values for all - that is
the secret of American prosperity"? Sure haven't heard any of that
"together" and "for all" business lately. Wait, isn't that what the
President is advocating? If that is the moral of this animation, it sure
beats the pants off of "I've got mine, screw you."

James the Bellicose

Bruce Remick wrote:
"George D" wrote in message
...



snipped

As the documents change daily I know not how to do that and even if I
could find the most current of them I am not sufficiently
knowledgeable to be able to understand what they say and than
determine what the real effect will be if enacted. Damn even those
voting on them don't read them as you mention in your last sentence.

FWIW I do not listen to Limbaugh and the sources are from both
right wing and left wing news. My home pages are azcentral, BBC, and
Foxnews anything else would only cause me to become more confused.

I only know that anytime the US government or any other government or
quasi government gets started on anything they must grow or die.
This is true from your labor union, HOA, city, state, federal, fire,
or other group.

If the current bills pass into law it will only be the beginning of
a long down hill battle of more freedoms lost. One only needs to
look at what we had 40 or 50 years ago and where we are now to know
what a slippery slope we are on and as the years pass how much
faster we are slipping. You are a teacher of history so you must
know what we have lost in freedoms during this period. Many of the
laws could be considered for our own best interest BUT every one of
them reduces our ability to function independently. We are being
taught to let big brother take care of us and not learn to look out
for ourselves.

I was in college 50 years ago. The only freedoms I have lost since
that time, other than the freedom to be drafted, have been things
like checking in at an airport, walking out the door on the tarmack
to navigate a flight of stairs to my flight, and then lighting up a
smoke. Now we have to get to airport a couple hours early so our
selves and belongings can be searched. And smoke? Forgetaboutit. I
miss our old freedom there, but then we all have to go through the
same thing. Any other "freedoms" I might have lost in the past 50
years are equally as trivial and have little to do with our
government, per se. Which freedoms were you thinking of?

I consider it as having gained a freedom with the smoking-in-public-places
ban. No longer do I have to endure the discomfort and danger of asthma from
breathing secondary smoke or smelling like a chimney when I leave a
restaurant.

James the Nicotine-Addicted

George D wrote:
Mr. Jaggers wrote:

The "beginning" of a downhill battle? We've been at this now for
220 years! That said, I am at a loss to even start a list of
freedoms that we have lost over the past 50 years. Perhaps you can
help me out here, sometimes I miss things.


Lets start here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USA_PATRIOT_Act

While I agree that the Patriot Act has been foisted on us by strutting and
preening politicians desperate to keep from appearing unpatriotic (and
therefore un-re-electable) and unsympathetic to the tragedy of 9-11 (and
therefore un-re-electable), it is essentially a rehash of the Alien and
Sedition Acts of 1798, using the technology of the 21st century, so I don't
see anything new under the sun here.

James the Anti-Terrorist

Mr. Jaggers wrote:
George D wrote:
Mr. Jaggers wrote:

The "beginning" of a downhill battle? We've been at this now for
220 years! That said, I am at a loss to even start a list of
freedoms that we have lost over the past 50 years. Perhaps you can
help me out here, sometimes I miss things.

Lets start here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USA_PATRIOT_Act

While I agree that the Patriot Act has been foisted on us by strutting and
preening politicians desperate to keep from appearing unpatriotic (and
therefore un-re-electable) and unsympathetic to the tragedy of 9-11 (and
therefore un-re-electable), it is essentially a rehash of the Alien and
Sedition Acts of 1798, using the technology of the 21st century, so I don't
see anything new under the sun here.

James the Anti-Terrorist



I assume you have read 1984. If you forecast the implications of this
act than you get to the opening of 1984 and the assumption that if you
are doing nothing wrong than you have nothing to fear. BS I say......

I know not what the the Alien and Sedition Acts of 1798, and I am not
going to research it and find out what it says or how many times it has
been used in a court of law in the last 100 years or so....

George

--
Government is a voracious monster that must have your labor to control
YOU! Your money is your liberty. The taxes you pay gently enslave you,
and eventually destroy any human liberty you have. Fear government, pray
for the country.