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OT. Personal responsibility vs. collective one. On this day in History....12th Dec



 
 
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  #21  
Old December 14th 03, 11:29 PM
Bob Ingraham
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12/14/2003 10:05 AM

On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 17:23:55 GMT, Bob Ingraham
wrote:

I am kinda on the fence about societal/political apologies and reparations
for past misdeeds on the part of government, but I think I am more on the
side of the plaintiffs than the defendants, at least in "modern" cases.

Here in British Columbia, I have seen the results of two "programs" that
resulted in huge injustices to innocents.


Just a follow up... I don't want to sound insensitive to those that
have bene "wronged" like Bob mentioned, but it arises from the mass
hysteria that was war.


An excuse, but not a very good one. A wrong is a wrong, regardless of the
circumstances. And neither German and Italian Canadians, nor German and
Italian Americans, were shipped to what amounted to concentration camps, nor
did they have their possessions confiscated. How is the wartime treatment of
Japanese Canadians and Americans not a crime?

I should have mentioned in my first post that the residential school program
had nothing to do with the Second World War. In Canada, it dated from the
1870s and was promoted by the federal government until 1969.

BTW, I have, as well as others, helped out a school like Bob mentioned
by sending countless stamps to them, while there was a stamp program
in place. Not as bleak as the palce Bob mentioned, but fairly
close...

Tracy Barber


If you are speaking of Vanessa Isit's school here in B.C., you can be sure
that the problems its students face today are a direct result of the
residential school system. The residential schools may be closed, but their
devastating impact will be felt for years to come.

(For newbies, Vanessa is a teacher -- now on permanent medical leave because
of muscular dystrophy -- who for several years ran a stamp club in a school
that serve a native reserve in Lower Nicola, B.C. She had a lot of success
with the club -- as many as 90 kids came to weekly meetings! She once told
me some of her stamp club kids owned only one thing in the world, except
perhaps the clothes on they wore, and that was their stamp collections. Some
of them left their collections in her care because they were afraid their
parents would sell them for beer money. Vanessa can brag of a notable
philatelic achievement: she is also an artist, and one of the U.N. stamps --
I'm not sure which one -- is based on one of her paintings. Does anyone know
more about this?)

Bob Ingraham


Ads
  #22  
Old December 15th 03, 12:36 AM
Bob Ingraham
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12/14/2003 1:47 PM

Canada's government was guilty of a crime against a people; since
Canada's governments is an ongoing entity, it remains guilty in my opinion.

A fitting commentary Bob, Thank you.
The first half adequately covers the Aboriginal tragedy here.
I guess the word that broadly covers the topic is empathy.
I wonder the history book if role reversal,
A Black Government removing children from white families,
and fostering them to black families for better integration,care
and education.



(Remove gum to reply)


Role reversal is a useful way of examining the strange ways of humans, of
walking a mile in another's shoes.

One of Ray Bradbury's books, The Other Foot, postulates a Mars that has been
populated by Blacks who left earth to escape the antipathies of whites.
Earth destroys itself in a nuclear war, but a white refugees escape to Mars
hoping for a welcome, if not a warm welcome.

Along the same vein is one of Bradbury's short stories, part of the The
Martian Chronicles, titled "Way in the Middle of the Air." It concerns the
the relationship between the White and Black population of a small Southern
town, specificially between a young Black man and his employer, a red-neck
who has grown up assuming that Blacks would always be at his beck and call,
and subservient to him. He tolerates them, even likes them, in ways, but has
been known to enjoy lynchings.

When the Blacks of the town get the opportunity to escape earth in a rocket
ship to colonize Mars, they leave en masse. The white bigot finds himself
helplessly facing an empty future, because he has come to depend not so much
on the labor of Black men, but on the power that he erroneously believed he
had over them.

I want a Ray Bradbury stamp! (I'd better not say that too loudly, lest I end
up with a new collecting interest!)

Bob Ingraham



  #23  
Old December 15th 03, 01:11 AM
Tracy Barber
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On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 22:29:28 GMT, Bob Ingraham
wrote:

Just a follow up... I don't want to sound insensitive to those that
have bene "wronged" like Bob mentioned, but it arises from the mass
hysteria that was war.


An excuse, but not a very good one. A wrong is a wrong, regardless of the
circumstances. And neither German and Italian Canadians, nor German and
Italian Americans, were shipped to what amounted to concentration camps, nor
did they have their possessions confiscated. How is the wartime treatment of
Japanese Canadians and Americans not a crime?


Apparently, you have forgotten about the hysteria that was created by
the Pearl Harbor and other propaganda surrounding it. The Germans nor
the Italians directly attacked our "shores", so to speak.

And why not, Bob? Let's stop thinking with our hats of 2003 and
venture back to when this was rampant.

The Chinese took the brunt of the railroad system in the states. The
Native Americans took the brunt of expansionism west.

Canada's definitely not exempt from atrocities and so forth.

As per WWII, the Japanese were doing FAR WORSE to our older relatives
than the Canadian govt. could ever do to those kids during that time
period. At least they had something to eat, albeit oatmeal. The
Japanese, from all that has been shown, (not all of them, of course),
were worse in their tactics than some the Germans did in Europe. It's
just not mentioned as much, is all. There's plenty of misery to go
around.

There's cruelty all over this forsaken planet. Then and now.

I should have mentioned in my first post that the residential school program
had nothing to do with the Second World War. In Canada, it dated from the
1870s and was promoted by the federal government until 1969.


This would have cleared a little up, yes indeed.

BTW, I have, as well as others, helped out a school like Bob mentioned
by sending countless stamps to them, while there was a stamp program
in place. Not as bleak as the palce Bob mentioned, but fairly
close...


If you are speaking of Vanessa Isit's school here in B.C., you can be sure
that the problems its students face today are a direct result of the
residential school system. The residential schools may be closed, but their
devastating impact will be felt for years to come.


....and this is truly a shame.

(For newbies, Vanessa is a teacher -- now on permanent medical leave because
of muscular dystrophy -- who for several years ran a stamp club in a school
that serve a native reserve in Lower Nicola, B.C. She had a lot of success
with the club -- as many as 90 kids came to weekly meetings! She once told
me some of her stamp club kids owned only one thing in the world, except
perhaps the clothes on they wore, and that was their stamp collections. Some
of them left their collections in her care because they were afraid their
parents would sell them for beer money. Vanessa can brag of a notable
philatelic achievement: she is also an artist, and one of the U.N. stamps --
I'm not sure which one -- is based on one of her paintings. Does anyone know
more about this?)


This I didn't know about. Interesting. She sent me a letter
mentioning pretty much the same thing you stated about their living
conditions, schooling, the works. Pretty rough, to say the least.

Anyway - when one side of the pot-kettle-black is stating something,
usually the other side has close to the same number of bones in the
closet... sad that it is.

Tracy Barber
  #24  
Old December 15th 03, 01:57 AM
Peter Aitken
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Reply at the bottom where it belongs (you should know this, Victor!)

"Victor Manta" wrote in message
...
Are you sure that I don't understand it? How about the following

Universal Declaration (?)

In a time when the individual right weren't respected either by your

people
or by our one, we express our deeply regret for all atrocities, including
for those perpetrated by our ancestors.

Signed
The Prime Minister

Is it OK for you in this form?

Victor Manta

No, Victor, you do not understand my opinion at all. I am not saying any
government should apologize for anything done in the past - nor am I

saying
that they *shouldn't* apologize. I was pointing out only that an apology
does not necessarily imply guilt or responsibility on the part the the

group
giving the apology. That's all - nothing more.

Peter G. Aitken



Yes I am sure you do not understand what I am trying to say.


--
Peter Aitken

Remove the crap from my email address before using.


  #25  
Old December 15th 03, 08:36 PM
Victor Manta
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Default


"Peter Aitken" wrote in message
. com...
Reply at the bottom where it belongs (you should know this, Victor!)


I apology for this.

¦¦
V

"Victor Manta" wrote in message
...
Are you sure that I don't understand it? How about the following

Universal Declaration (?)

In a time when the individual right weren't respected either by your

people
or by our one, we express our deeply regret for all atrocities,

including
for those perpetrated by our ancestors.

Signed
The Prime Minister

Is it OK for you in this form?

Victor Manta

No, Victor, you do not understand my opinion at all. I am not saying

any
government should apologize for anything done in the past - nor am I

saying
that they *shouldn't* apologize. I was pointing out only that an

apology
does not necessarily imply guilt or responsibility on the part the the

group
giving the apology. That's all - nothing more.

Peter G. Aitken


Yes I am sure you do not understand what I am trying to say.

Peter Aitken


I apology for this too.

Victor Manta

  #26  
Old December 16th 03, 09:01 PM
Terry Reedy
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"Bob Ingraham" wrote in
message ...
It's in the news still. Some of Jefferson's

white descendants are fighting
tooth and nail to ignore what seems to be

incontrovertible DNA evidence that
Jefferson did indeed father children with one of

his slaves, Sally Hemings,
but others have accepted it as fact and

apparently are enjoying having a
suddenly larger family network:


I believe the original DNA study was based on the
Y (male-maker) chromosome, which is passed pretty
much intact from father to all sons. It only
showed that at least one (the last, I believe) of
the Hennings' children was likely fathered by one
of the Jefferson men. Some historians considered
Thomas's brother to be the more likely candidate.
(I have no opinion either way.) I have not read
about any further studies.


http://charleston.net/stories/071403/wor_14jeff.s
html
only says "a genetic link was established between
the Hemingses and Jeffersons in 1998". Any of the
Jefferson men could be that link.

TJR



  #27  
Old December 16th 03, 09:21 PM
Terry Reedy
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"Tracy Barber" wrote
in message
...
An excuse, but not a very good one. A wrong is

a wrong, regardless of the
circumstances. And neither German and Italian

Canadians, nor German and
Italian Americans, were shipped to what

amounted to concentration camps, nor
did they have their possessions confiscated.

How is the wartime treatment of
Japanese Canadians and Americans not a crime?


Apparently, you have forgotten about the

hysteria that was created by
the Pearl Harbor and other propaganda

surrounding it.

The Hawaiian Japanese Americans, who logically
were the most 'dangerous', were left alone. The
more bigoted West coast (where I grew up) had a
bigoted commander who pushed to treat even kids
worse than criminals.

The Germans nor
the Italians directly attacked our "shores", so

to speak.

Actually, German subs operated right off the
Atlantic coast sinking ships and landing spies.
Those caught were interned here in Delaware.

TJR


  #28  
Old December 17th 03, 12:30 AM
Bob Ingraham
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Default

12/16/2003 12:21 PM


"Tracy Barber" wrote
in message
...
An excuse, but not a very good one. A wrong is

a wrong, regardless of the
circumstances. And neither German and Italian

Canadians, nor German and
Italian Americans, were shipped to what

amounted to concentration camps, nor
did they have their possessions confiscated.

How is the wartime treatment of
Japanese Canadians and Americans not a crime?


Apparently, you have forgotten about the

hysteria that was created by
the Pearl Harbor and other propaganda

surrounding it.

The Hawaiian Japanese Americans, who logically
were the most 'dangerous', were left alone. The
more bigoted West coast (where I grew up) had a
bigoted commander who pushed to treat even kids
worse than criminals.

The Germans nor
the Italians directly attacked our "shores", so

to speak.

Actually, German subs operated right off the
Atlantic coast sinking ships and landing spies.
Those caught were interned here in Delaware.

TJR



Good points, Terry. There can really be no serious argument that "war
hysteria" was the cause of the Japanese internments in both Canada and the
U.S. Let's call it what it was: bigotry.

I found the following information, about California but relevant to Canadian
history, at this web site:
http://www.delmar.edu/socsci/rlong/race/far-15.htm. Note that it concerns
conditions well *before* the Second World War:

"Finally, when legislation
against the Chinese proved ineffectual, gangs of
resentful whites drove them bodily from the fields.
Many were deported to China under the Oriental
Exclusion Act of 1882 and the Geary Act of 1892,
while others took refuge in the cities.

"After the
Chinese were driven away, and by the time
Japanese were "enticed" to come to harvest the
crops, "over half a million acres of farm land had
been put out of cultivation in California."
During the 90's, Japanese farm laborers began
to appear around Fresno. From about 2,000 in
1890, their number grew to 24,000 in 1900, and
72,000 in 1910. They worked almost exclusively
on specialized farms. They had no families,
moved quietly from harvest to harvest, and never
obtruded their presence on the white community.
No one seemed to know where or how they lived,
or where they went when their work was done.
They were hired through their own employment
clubs, and, at first, worked for less than white and
even Chinese labor. Again, the big farms had
"solved" their labor problem.

"The Japanese, however, behaved most
ungratefully. First, after obtaining a virtual
monopoly over California farm labor, they
demanded higher wages, and got them. Second,
they began to acquire land of their own‹waste
land, to be sure, which no one else thought worth
cultivating‹and were amazingly successful in
farming on their own account. By 1918, they
were growing some 25,000 acres of rice in
California. Other arid stretches were turned into
fruitful berry country by the Japanese. These
innovations were due entirely to the skill and
imagination of Japanese farmers.

"Accordingly, instead of an "ideal labor force,"
the Japanese now were known as undesirable
"Asiatics" who must be prevented from getting a
"firm foothold and permanent position in the
community." The campaign against the Japanese
resulted in the Alien Land Act of 1913 and
restriction on Japanese immigration in 1924. They
were forced to sell their land-holdings under the
Alien Land Act, and except for the few who were
able to evade the provisions of this law, the
Japanese lost the benefit of their contribution to
California agriculture. During World War II, of
course, they suffered further losses.

  #29  
Old December 17th 03, 12:57 AM
Tracy Barber
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Default

On Tue, 16 Dec 2003 23:30:30 GMT, Bob Ingraham
wrote:

12/16/2003 12:21 PM


"Tracy Barber" wrote
in message
...
An excuse, but not a very good one. A wrong is

a wrong, regardless of the
circumstances. And neither German and Italian

Canadians, nor German and
Italian Americans, were shipped to what

amounted to concentration camps, nor
did they have their possessions confiscated.

How is the wartime treatment of
Japanese Canadians and Americans not a crime?

Apparently, you have forgotten about the

hysteria that was created by
the Pearl Harbor and other propaganda

surrounding it.

The Hawaiian Japanese Americans, who logically
were the most 'dangerous', were left alone. The
more bigoted West coast (where I grew up) had a
bigoted commander who pushed to treat even kids
worse than criminals.

The Germans nor
the Italians directly attacked our "shores", so

to speak.

Actually, German subs operated right off the
Atlantic coast sinking ships and landing spies.
Those caught were interned here in Delaware.

TJR



Good points, Terry. There can really be no serious argument that "war
hysteria" was the cause of the Japanese internments in both Canada and the
U.S. Let's call it what it was: bigotry.


And you call Japanese aggression what?

Tracy Barber
  #30  
Old December 17th 03, 01:28 AM
Eric Bustad
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Tracy Barber wrote:
On Tue, 16 Dec 2003 23:30:30 GMT, Bob Ingraham wrote:
12/16/2003 12:21 PM


"Tracy Barber" wrote in message
...

An excuse, but not a very good one. A wrong is a wrong, regardless of the
circumstances. And neither German and Italian Canadians, nor German and
Italian Americans, were shipped to what amounted to concentration camps, nor
did they have their possessions confiscated. How is the wartime treatment of
Japanese Canadians and Americans not a crime?

Apparently, you have forgotten about the hysteria that was created by
the Pearl Harbor and other propaganda surrounding it.

The Hawaiian Japanese Americans, who logically
were the most 'dangerous', were left alone. The
more bigoted West coast (where I grew up) had a
bigoted commander who pushed to treat even kids
worse than criminals.


The Germans nor
the Italians directly attacked our "shores", so to speak.

Actually, German subs operated right off the
Atlantic coast sinking ships and landing spies.
Those caught were interned here in Delaware.

TJR


Good points, Terry. There can really be no serious argument that "war
hysteria" was the cause of the Japanese internments in both Canada and the
U.S. Let's call it what it was: bigotry.


And you call Japanese aggression what?

Tracy Barber


War crimes.

Do you always blame innocent persons, such as the Japanese Americans,
for the misdeeds of the political leaders in their former homeland?

= Eric

 




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