Where did all the collectors go?

Grandpa jsdebooATcomcast.net wrote in message ...
Make that 52,575 - I just subscribed todayG.

Nope!

You'll be counted in next years dwindling subscribers. Ought to be
about 49,227 - whoops 49,228....you just joined!

Handshakes,


Dakota

On 20 Nov 2003 14:18:52 -0800, (Dakota) wrote:

Grandpa jsdebooATcomcast.net wrote in message ...
Make that 52,575 - I just subscribed todayG.

Nope!

You'll be counted in next years dwindling subscribers. Ought to be
about 49,227 - whoops 49,228....you just joined!

Pessimist! :^P

Tracy Barber

Maybe the legend was ivory handled tongs, pince-nez, and lupes...can't
remember.
I can't help think that in terms of older stamps that their numbers are
diminishing what with fires, war, floods, theft, and innumerable other
negative effects. Statistics show (maybe it was in Linns) that the profile of
a stamp collector also fits a weapons collector and mercenary who lives in an
area of frequent natural disasters and smokes in bed. In other words stamp
collectors are an adventurous and dangerous lot who live on the edge. And
stamp quantities suffer for it. Just imagine the philatelic losses chronicled
in the sweeping stamp epic "Gone With the Hinge".
all right I'm going,
tl

Rodney wrote:

| The philateliphant graveyard (near Nigeria, i think). legend has it that
| it is knee deep in tweezers.

.........Sounds very much like my good wife's makeup bag.

(Don't use one myself, I'm pretty as I am)
.......hang on! is that a hair growing out of my ear?

--
Tom Loepp

Email:
Website: http://loepp.home.mindspring.com/tom/

Doug Spade wrote:

"Grandpa" jsdebooATcomcast.net wrote in message
...

Make that 52,575 - I just subscribed todayG.



Congrats! I'll bet you stay with them for a good long time.
(Now if I could just find the time to start catching up on that stack I've
got of the past five issues...........)

Mike


I heard that! Went to the library and scored 5 free copies from the
past 4 months of issues I want to read. So they're old, the info is
still goodG.

"Grandpa" jsdebooATcomcast.net wrote in message
...

snip

I heard that! Went to the library and scored 5 free copies from the
past 4 months of issues I want to read. So they're old, the info is
still goodG.


Which to do this weekend: Catch up on Linn's or watch Michigan/Ohio State?
Decisions, decisions.

Guess I'll do both at the same time!

Mike

Tracy:

- My personal observation at exhibitions in what concerns the number and the
age of visitors.

We have discussed this. Taking kids to these expos is almost sadistic
in nature! Most old farts (I'm getting there soon enough) would
rather look at exhibits and hawk with dealers rather than bring the
kiddies to the show. There, are, though, some exceptions as we have
seen written about here.

Interesting segue you've made - I gotta point out that us "Old Farts"
don't have kids to take to stamp shows. We have grandkids or even
great grandkids - but they mostly don't live within hundreds of miles
of us. And those grandkids are not gonna give up their X-Boxes or
Playstations to drop by for a weekend just so they can accompnay us
"Old Farts" to a stamp show/bourse.

Just because the "new guard" hasn't been seen heavily - don't discount
the hen's output before the eggs are layed. The "new" guard" will
come around and do the shows in due time.

Perhaps, if there are still any dealers left around to attend shows.
I know some 20-25 dealers who were going strong 20-15-10 or even 5
years ago. they are no more! Every time I attend a show/bourse I note
here or there a favorite who is missing. Asking around I hear the
same thing. "He just wasn't making it". And some of these were
dealers who seeing the possibility of the net did come up with nice
web pages, listings, offerings. It just wasn't enough. On further
questioning all the dealers at the shows seem to be of a like mind -
they all say business is maybe 10%-25% of what it was 5-10 years
previously.

If not, a new way - like the 'Net, will provide expo enough
capabilities for many.

I'm not discounting the value of the net - there appear to be lots of
dealers there hawking their wares. eBay and Delcampe come to mind
quite easily - Earl Apfelbaum - lots of the larger dealers, they're
all there. I also see lots of auctions close with very reasonable
prices being unrealized. Delcampe is probably the most obvious
because their auctions just keep rolling over and over and over until
the item is sold - or withdrawn. There are some items that I've
watched for over 8 months!

It's no longer necessary - except to get the obligatory medals and
prizes - to show off one's goodies LIVE.

This may seem blasphemy, but I just never ever got excited over
panes/panels - (whatever their called). I hear the Ohhh's and Ahhh's -
the medal/ribbon is presented, the pane/panel is carefully placed in
the back of an SUV and 6 weeks - 2 months later it pops up at another
show where it garners more pieces of ribbon. In the end the owner is
gonna die and if it hadn't already been sold, it will be, to people
who will rip it apart hoping to be able to find someone to buy it.

- The interest in stamps of my own daughter, who played with stamps as a
child, but who then switched to Internet and computer games (and who learned
from them more and more useful things than she could ever learn from stamps,
for example the English language and the use of computers, both her daily
"tools" now).

Do you need more? Maybe other participants will tell you.

Yes, I do. I am FIRMLY NOT CONVINCED that stamp collecting is "dying"
as so many pundits keep tossing our way as they seem to espouse
"abandon hope, all ye who enter here" and do nothing to further the
cause.

It isn't abandoning hope, simply observations (certainly not
statistical observation with charts and graphs) that dealers are
vanishing. I have a couple of 'special' dealers that I visit
regularly. One that I visit most often says business stinks. I
remember a few years ago he was open at 7AM on Saturday and didn't
close until quite late - he stayed as long as he had customers. I
remember always 8-10 collectors in his shop every time I visited. Now
when I arrive he actually has to open the shop for me. I was there
this last Saturday - he shared with me that the highlight of his week
was his finding a used $2 Columbian for a collector - he was delighted
that he got $150.00 for it. Before I left he dropped a hint that he
was thinking of getting out of the business - "Uhhh...would you happen
to know someone who'd like to maybe buy the contents of the shop - I'd
sell it cheap."

As you well know, I recycle stamps in all forms. This keeps the hobby
going. If all of the pundits who writhe with fear over the hobby
dying out would do the same, then there'd be no fear of losing the
base that's out there and even increasing it.

Ah, the "Freebie Stamp Project". You mention it often and God love ya
for going to the trouble. I've even donated to it. This is a
wonderful thing you do for beginners out there in the ether. Anybody
who wants to dispute it is gonna have to go through me! I sure as hell
don't want to diminish your efforts.

But, sending off a packet of 100 WW or US stamps does not guarantee
that the recipient is going to turn into a rabid collector - willing
to go out and toss down a thousand bucks for Shaubeck albums - or even
$39.95 for a Minuteman album, or is even going to open the packet you
sent except maybe for cursory investigation. You say it keeps the
hobby growing. It might! But on the other hand, I wonder how many
glassines that you went to the trouble to send out, are lying
unattended in some dark and dank desk drawer.


But why, because
this time is obviously subtracted from that dedicated to philately?

Because we can't be devoted to it 24 / 7. That would be foolish.

A healthy life has a healthy balance of "things" in it. Too much of
something may take away from other "things" we may be missing.

Indeed, this is true. A life with a single goal is empty and lacking
investigation and involvement.

I do believe that stamp collectors have a future out there. I also
believe that most of them have a life and don't tweak every second
with a stamp album.

I guess, if you ask "Where did all the collectors go?" then you just
haven't looked hard enough to answer your own question.

Where did they all go? Golly, I don't know but the only collectors I
know are the ones who visit here (and other net venues). I can truly
state that I do not personally know a single collector.

Handshakes,


Dakota

"Dakota" wrote in message
om...
Ok, there may be some collectors who do not subscribe to Linn's (or
any of the other publications) - but how many out there are able to
add to their collections without having some trade magazine at hand?

I have never subscribed to Linn's and have no problems adding to my
collection. I'm not sure a subscription rate is going to give an acurate
tally. I would suspect that many new collectors rely on the Internet these
days.

Frank

On 20 Nov 2003 19:35:45 -0800, (Dakota) wrote:

Tracy:

- My personal observation at exhibitions in what concerns the number and the
age of visitors.

We have discussed this. Taking kids to these expos is almost sadistic
in nature! Most old farts (I'm getting there soon enough) would
rather look at exhibits and hawk with dealers rather than bring the
kiddies to the show. There, are, though, some exceptions as we have
seen written about here.

Interesting segue you've made - I gotta point out that us "Old Farts"
don't have kids to take to stamp shows. We have grandkids or even
great grandkids - but they mostly don't live within hundreds of miles
of us. And those grandkids are not gonna give up their X-Boxes or
Playstations to drop by for a weekend just so they can accompnay us
"Old Farts" to a stamp show/bourse.

That's not my fault! :^) Bring a collector to a show. This
infatuation with training kids how to use tongs / hinges before their
out of diapers is a bit premature, eh?

Just because the "new guard" hasn't been seen heavily - don't discount
the hen's output before the eggs are layed. The "new" guard" will
come around and do the shows in due time.

Perhaps, if there are still any dealers left around to attend shows.

This is about collectors, not dealers, right? Shows are usually
dealers / exhibits and if allowed, seminars. I'd go to shows to see
exhibits and go to the seminars. The dealers must sell high and buy
low, eh?

I know some 20-25 dealers who were going strong 20-15-10 or even 5
years ago. they are no more! Every time I attend a show/bourse I note
here or there a favorite who is missing. Asking around I hear the
same thing. "He just wasn't making it". And some of these were
dealers who seeing the possibility of the net did come up with nice
web pages, listings, offerings. It just wasn't enough. On further
questioning all the dealers at the shows seem to be of a like mind -
they all say business is maybe 10%-25% of what it was 5-10 years
previously.

Let's get back to collectors. Many dealers can't compete with
internet sales. Many dealers won't invest the time for internet work.
I have had extensive talks with 1 local dealer and his adventures with
other dealers. He's quite objective about it.

Maybe, in your area, there were too many dealers in the first place.
Where I live, there's 2. They do fine. We're in a small city, not a
metropolis...

If not, a new way - like the 'Net, will provide expo enough
capabilities for many.

I'm not discounting the value of the net - there appear to be lots of
dealers there hawking their wares. eBay and Delcampe come to mind
quite easily - Earl Apfelbaum - lots of the larger dealers, they're
all there. I also see lots of auctions close with very reasonable
prices being unrealized. Delcampe is probably the most obvious
because their auctions just keep rolling over and over and over until
the item is sold - or withdrawn. There are some items that I've
watched for over 8 months!

The 'Net has taken over where brick and mortar shops have been in the
past. Little overhead, much more exposure for less $. Let's face it,
someone selling decent stuff on the 'Net will stand a better chance of
selling it than locally.

As per items not selling, maybe the interest is not there. If you
were interested in that item, you'd have bought it within 8 months,
no?

The shakeout is not over. It'll go on for some time to come.

It's no longer necessary - except to get the obligatory medals and
prizes - to show off one's goodies LIVE.

This may seem blasphemy, but I just never ever got excited over
panes/panels - (whatever their called). I hear the Ohhh's and Ahhh's -
the medal/ribbon is presented, the pane/panel is carefully placed in
the back of an SUV and 6 weeks - 2 months later it pops up at another
show where it garners more pieces of ribbon. In the end the owner is
gonna die and if it hadn't already been sold, it will be, to people
who will rip it apart hoping to be able to find someone to buy it.

hehehehe. Yup. Can't take it with you when you go.

- The interest in stamps of my own daughter, who played with stamps as a
child, but who then switched to Internet and computer games (and who learned
from them more and more useful things than she could ever learn from stamps,
for example the English language and the use of computers, both her daily
"tools" now).

Do you need more? Maybe other participants will tell you.

Yes, I do. I am FIRMLY NOT CONVINCED that stamp collecting is "dying"
as so many pundits keep tossing our way as they seem to espouse
"abandon hope, all ye who enter here" and do nothing to further the
cause.

It isn't abandoning hope, simply observations (certainly not
statistical observation with charts and graphs) that dealers are
vanishing.

We're talking collectors, right? Not dealers. Many dealers are NOT
collectors. The topic, my man, the topic!

I need to SEE non-mag / non-rag stats. I need to see stats that
include 'Net usage. Until then, they are only polling a limited
market.

I have a couple of 'special' dealers that I visit
regularly. One that I visit most often says business stinks. I
remember a few years ago he was open at 7AM on Saturday and didn't
close until quite late - he stayed as long as he had customers. I
remember always 8-10 collectors in his shop every time I visited. Now
when I arrive he actually has to open the shop for me. I was there
this last Saturday - he shared with me that the highlight of his week
was his finding a used $2 Columbian for a collector - he was delighted
that he got $150.00 for it. Before I left he dropped a hint that he
was thinking of getting out of the business - "Uhhh...would you happen
to know someone who'd like to maybe buy the contents of the shop - I'd
sell it cheap."

As many would. They could sit home and sell of their remainders at
home. I'd love to get the stock my friend has. Too bad I don't have
the capital to invest. Give me a year or 2 on the 'Net and I'll
retire.

As you well know, I recycle stamps in all forms. This keeps the hobby
going. If all of the pundits who writhe with fear over the hobby
dying out would do the same, then there'd be no fear of losing the
base that's out there and even increasing it.

Ah, the "Freebie Stamp Project". You mention it often and God love ya
for going to the trouble. I've even donated to it. This is a
wonderful thing you do for beginners out there in the ether. Anybody
who wants to dispute it is gonna have to go through me! I sure as hell
don't want to diminish your efforts.

Why thankee! And thanks for donating to it.

But, sending off a packet of 100 WW or US stamps does not guarantee
that the recipient is going to turn into a rabid collector - willing
to go out and toss down a thousand bucks for Shaubeck albums - or even
$39.95 for a Minuteman album, or is even going to open the packet you
sent except maybe for cursory investigation. You say it keeps the
hobby growing. It might! But on the other hand, I wonder how many
glassines that you went to the trouble to send out, are lying
unattended in some dark and dank desk drawer.

Funny that you would say that, because that defeats what you mentioned
above. I don't post the results of sending said packets, but I get
about 25% of those receiving them telling me "Thanks!". Some send
letters as follow ups. Many e-mail me to thank me. Others thank a
few yet other people and I hear about it.

What you seemed to have overlooked before answering is this: Your
collection is much BIGGER than the people getting these stamps and
yes, you would probably overlook them as cheap, common items.

In their eyes, they are receiving something that they are looking
forward to getting. Otherwise, they wouldn't have asked for them in
the first place. A kid in the Philippines, a modest collector in
India, Grandma in East Podunk...

No, they are not classics. No, they are not junk. They may not be
your cup of tea, but they most certainly float the boat of many who
have requested them.

This is some of the same old talk that keeps newbies out of reach from
"oldies" who've been around a while. The stereotypical categorization
of said collecting skills / wants / etc...

I don't - and will not - push that on them.

Nor do I push luxury Shaubecks down their throats as a requirement for
collecting. Many ask about lower priced albums, but I always refer
them to Steiner's pages and the inexpensive way to buy the world and
print as needed. The stamp collecting hobby has far too many
high-priced goodies out there that are just FLUFF to the hobby. It
seems we buy a lot of fluff, don't we?

All of this talk seems like high-falootin' collecting, along the lines
of exhibits and expos. Glamour collecting for those wishing to show
off a treasure or 2. That's fine for those that can afford it, but
for the little guy, they truly could give 2 hoots. They want
something they can play with. Exhibits have their places and can be a
wonderful thing, if your ego is in check.

Classic collecting gear does not a collector make. Classic collecting
does not make a person classy. Classic collecting does not make
anyone better than anyone else.

When used in the wrong context, it's a put down, a slam, an affront
and so forth to those who do not have the money to buy extra goods.

But why, because
this time is obviously subtracted from that dedicated to philately?

Because we can't be devoted to it 24 / 7. That would be foolish.

A healthy life has a healthy balance of "things" in it. Too much of
something may take away from other "things" we may be missing.

Indeed, this is true. A life with a single goal is empty and lacking
investigation and involvement.

Especially in other aspects of one's life. Hence, the term nerd, geek
and so forth that stamp collectors have always been associated with.
I definitely DO NOT meet that requirement. FAR from it! :^) Heh!
If you only knew!

I do believe that stamp collectors have a future out there. I also
believe that most of them have a life and don't tweak every second
with a stamp album.

I guess, if you ask "Where did all the collectors go?" then you just
haven't looked hard enough to answer your own question.

Where did they all go? Golly, I don't know but the only collectors I
know are the ones who visit here (and other net venues). I can truly
state that I do not personally know a single collector.

Hmmm... I did notice that you took off from the original post to
discuss dealers. That's not what I was responding to, I was talking
about collectors.

When one associates collectors with a specific type of collecting,
then one rules out every other potential collector by default. That's
a shame. Just because someone doesn't aspire to become editor of
Linns or Treasurer of the APS, are they lesser for not doing so?

There are many types of stamp collector out there. Many people are
overly concerned that their progeny will go the way of the dodo bird.

A very large portion of what has been issued has been flyspeck checked
already. Many new collectors don't have to be rocket scientists nor
do they have to collect every possible variation of x,y,z Machin 1p
red.

Just because we've gone from grass roots collecting to sophisticated
collecting today doesn't mean that we can't go back to grass roots
collecting again. The 'Net will provide the connectivity between
collectors that do not live next to each other. Local clubs will
still have a presence in most areas.

Even passing damaged stamps on to those who make art from them is
another way to "sell" stamp collecting. The results of this probably
have NEVER been polled, considering it is sacrilege to do such things
with stamps.

The old taboos, standards, methods and so forth need serious
re-evaluation in today's rapidly moving world. I see this in a few
other areas that I allow in my life. Their techniques were 1930s -
1950s. That was then, this is now. Even they need some changing!

Unfortunately, the stamp hobby may die if these standards aren't
enhanced to allow new polling and tracking of collecting, sales and
the hobby in general.

If we don't change with the times, we will perpetuate our own demise.
"Woe is me, the hobby is dying!" won't cut it anymore. I refuse to be
be stagnant and roll with the flow. I mentioned this 3 years ago and
got off my arse to do something about it. I'm still standing and
revising as time passes. Who knows what the next few years will get
me involved in!

How about any of you? The gauntlet has been tossed down. Challenge
it instead of complaining about it.

Tracy Barber

On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 23:25:25 -0500, "Frank Emanuel"
wrote:


"Dakota" wrote in message
. com...
Ok, there may be some collectors who do not subscribe to Linn's (or
any of the other publications) - but how many out there are able to
add to their collections without having some trade magazine at hand?

I have never subscribed to Linn's and have no problems adding to my
collection. I'm not sure a subscription rate is going to give an acurate
tally. I would suspect that many new collectors rely on the Internet these
days.

Wow... I'm not alone.

Tracy Barber

From: Tracy Barber
Organization: The Kidz
Reply-To:
Newsgroups: rec.collecting.stamps.discuss
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 05:27:51 GMT
Subject: Where did all the collectors go?

On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 23:25:25 -0500, "Frank Emanuel"
wrote:


"Dakota" wrote in message
om...
Ok, there may be some collectors who do not subscribe to Linn's (or
any of the other publications) - but how many out there are able to
add to their collections without having some trade magazine at hand?

I have never subscribed to Linn's and have no problems adding to my
collection. I'm not sure a subscription rate is going to give an acurate
tally. I would suspect that many new collectors rely on the Internet these
days.

Wow... I'm not alone.

Of course you aren't alone! I buy or trade stamps and/or covers from...

-- Local dealers (one in particular who is aware of my interests).

-- From a local auction.

-- From three postal history websites

-- eBay

-- My stamp club (Shop 'n' Swap nights, auctions, offers by individual
collectors who know my interests)

-- Collectors I've met via this newsgroup and Stamporama

-- The Stamporama auction

-- Stamp bourses once or twice a year

-- Flea markets and antique shops (two of my better "finds" were in flea
markets" and my best postcard, at least in terms of the history behind it,
came from an antique store).

Two or perhaps three times in the last 10 years I have used Linns or the
Canadian Stamp News to contact dealers. For awhile I bought U.S. approvals
from an approval dealer who advertised in both papers. I bought a nice bunch
of Russian airmails and wartime issues from a dealer who advertised in
Linn's. The internet makes it really unnecessary to search classified ads.
There is just no way I'm going to send a want list via snail mail in hopes
that a dealer might have what I need. There are too many other, more
convenient sources. (I admit that I live in a "philatelically rich" city).

I became a member of APS so I could get the magazine, and support the APS.
Current philatelic publications are constantly being shared among members of
my stamp club, so there is really is no need to have any more subscriptions,
and I couldn't afford more subscriptions anyway. Periodicals are simply
losing their formerly high profile in the philatelic world, largely because
of the internet.

Bob Ingraham