The bookselling racket (was: Collecting Dictionaries)

In "Collecting Dictionaries" thread i wrote:

I have rarely spent much for them until recently since competition from bookdealing racketeers has artificially inflated prices and scarcified many desirable books.

my-wings wrote:

Alice bookdealing...hopefully not a racketeer!

I know and like some bookdealers, but some of my views may offend some
who read them here. I am bound to speak my mind, so i can only hope
they won't take it personally.

I am primarily referring to used book dealers who buy from low cost
markets and mark the prices way up. The books were already available
to me (the user, the buying public) at an affordable price. Now, if i
want them, i need to pay serious money.

Since the recent boom in internet selling, which seems to be growing by
the day, so many professionals and amateurs alike have entered the
market that competition for cheap used books is extreme.

It is the rampant buying of already available low cost books for resale
that i call a racket, and this those who do it racketeers.

John A. Stovall wrote:

Odd way to describe those who make our collecting possible.

Thrift stores and other low price markets have made my collecting
possible. Had the markest been what they are now when i began my
dictionary collection, it would not be anywhere near what it is today,
as i could never have afforded it.

I for one am grateful to my many friends who are book dealer and have helped me grow my collections

I am more grateful to the thrift markets. I only go to the dealers as
a last resort when i can't find what i want, which i am doing more and
more out of desperation as the low cost markets are "cleaned up".

"The booksellers are generous liberal-minded men." Samuel Johnson

Was he referring to resalers back then ?

This does not apply to all, but there is a common class of bookdealers
who see books primarily as commodities. They may not even read much
themselves, but they have learned to spot what will sell. I can spot
these sorts easily at thrift stores. There's something about the way
they look at books that tells me what they are looking for in them:
money.

ER Lyon

xerlome wrote:
...
I am primarily referring to used book dealers who buy from low cost
markets and mark the prices way up. The books were already available
to me (the user, the buying public) at an affordable price. Now, if i
want them, i need to pay serious money.

Since the recent boom in internet selling, which seems to be growing by
the day, so many professionals and amateurs alike have entered the
market that competition for cheap used books is extreme.

In part this is because it hardly pays to list books on the Internet
that cost more for shipping than for the book. I know at least one
local bookseller who listed only books above a certain price on the
Internet, and I suspect this is not uncommon. Checking the on-line
listings for another bookstore, I find nothing my Shakespeare priced
under $5, yet I know they have lots in the store. Why spend time
putting the low-end on line?

It is the rampant buying of already available low cost books for resale
that i call a racket, and this those who do it racketeers.

This is what dealers in every area have always done.

John A. Stovall wrote

Odd way to describe those who make our collecting possible.

Thrift stores and other low price markets have made my collecting
possible. Had the markest been what they are now when i began my
dictionary collection, it would not be anywhere near what it is today,
as i could never have afforded it.

One might as well claim art dealers are racketeers because people have
decided to pay ridiculous amounts of money for art that at one time the
artist couldn't even sell.

I for one am grateful to my many friends who are book dealer and have helped me grow my collections

I am more grateful to the thrift markets. I only go to the dealers as
a last resort when i can't find what i want, which i am doing more and
more out of desperation as the low cost markets are "cleaned up".

The thrift markets sold (and sell) books cheap because that is not their
main focus. They are more concerned with clothing and household goods,
and in many cases are running as a charity in any case.

This does not apply to all, but there is a common class of bookdealers
who see books primarily as commodities. They may not even read much
themselves, but they have learned to spot what will sell. I can spot
these sorts easily at thrift stores. There's something about the way
they look at books that tells me what they are looking for in them:
money.

They have always been there. And if they weren't, the thrift stores
would eventually throw away the books to make room for winter coats.

Sure, lots of dealers over-price their books. I see them in
bookfinder.com all the time. The good thing about the Internet is that
even if one dealer decides he wants to charge $200 for a book, one can
see if other dealers are selling it for $20. (We've all seen this, right?)

--
Evelyn C. Leeper
Complaint is the largest tribute heaven receives,
and the sincerest part of our devotion. --Jonathan Swift

Evelyn C. Leeper wrote:

xerlome wrote:
I am primarily referring to used book dealers who buy from low cost
markets and mark the prices way up... Now, if i
want them, i need to pay serious money.

In part this is because it hardly pays to list books on the Internet
that cost more for shipping than for the book... Why spend time
putting the low-end on line?

I'm sure that's true. But i doubt you are suggesting that the cheap
books they don't list are likely to be the ones i want - are you ?
Perhaps they are just the ones i, as a low income buyer, should settle
for.

It is the rampant buying of already available low cost books for resale
that i call a racket, and this those who do it racketeers.

This is what dealers in every area have always done.

Obviously it is much worse now. As a buyer i have noticed dramatic
change in just the last few years. I used to regularly buy books for 3
for a dollar at a local Salvation Army Store, grat items, old and new,
every time i went. Now i rarely see any of that level of material. I
don't believe this is due to extreme increase of personal buying.
There are clearly vastly more resalers than a few years ago.

One might as well claim art dealers are racketeers because people have
decided to pay ridiculous amounts of money for art that at one time the
artist couldn't even sell.

Where the practices i have described apply to other fields, then i
might feel the same way. I am primarily dealing with books. I surely
couldn't afford to expand to other areas, especially the way things are
going.

The thrift markets sold (and sell) books cheap because that is not their
main focus. They are more concerned with clothing and household goods,
and in many cases are running as a charity in any case.

Thrift stores sell everything cheap, clothes included. I see clothing
resalers buying there, too. I'm not very picky about clothes, so i
don't notice the effect as much.

Yes, thrift store profits go to charity. As a source of goods for low
income people, they also serve as a kind of charity.

Over the last few years, more and more of these stores have started
"smart pricing" books, perhaps in response to the booming internet
resale industry. Often the prices are not so smart, though, but based
on what someone imagines is "worth something." I have noticed that
many stores are treating all dictionaries as if they are "hot." Some
trashy Collegiate 7th edition might cost as much as 5 or 10 dollars ( a
particularly egregious example). I was annoyed by this at first, but
now i appreciate that it at least discourages the resalers enough to
reserve items i want (something better than a Collegiate 7th, though.)
It is preferable to paying $20 or $50 or $100 or more to resalers.

there is a common class of bookdealers who see books primarily as commodities.

They have always been there. And if they weren't, the thrift stores
would eventually throw away the books to make room for winter coats.

Thrift stores do not throw out books before a lot of people have looked
at them. Sometimes i see the same stuff aound for years. I do not
believe that the sale of books at thrift stores (the ones bookdealers
would buy at least) depends upon bookdealers buying them. I am not one
of just some few people who buy books for themselves. And we would not
prefer to pay 10 or 100 times the thrift prices to the resalers. If
people will buy the books from the resalers, thrift markets surely can
sell them, too.

The good thing about the Internet is that
even if one dealer decides he wants to charge $200 for a book, one can
see if other dealers are selling it for $20.

This is rare, you must admit. A range like $20 to $200 is not common
for identical books in equal condition. The high range is usually some
preposterously unreasonable price for the item. Yes, i've seen this.
I think there are some sellers who just hope some fool will come along.


I've often seen in book searches where someone is selling a used copy
of an in-print book for twice or more the current retail price of a new
copy of the same edition. I wrote to one of these sellers and asked
him why. He replied that he didn't know, he wasn't familiar with other
people's prices.

ER Lyon

on 31 Dec 2005 00:49:43 -0800, xerlome stated:

Evelyn C. Leeper wrote:

xerlome wrote:
This is what dealers in every area have always done.

Obviously it is much worse now. As a buyer i have noticed dramatic
change in just the last few years. I used to regularly buy books for 3
for a dollar at a local Salvation Army Store, grat items, old and new,
every time i went. Now i rarely see any of that level of material. I
don't believe this is due to extreme increase of personal buying.
There are clearly vastly more resalers than a few years ago.

I think you should also take into consideration the shifting
market. As someone else has said, there are probably plenty
of people now who put their books on eBay instead of donating
them to thrift stores. And there are probably a lot of people
like you - not big dealers - who are buying up the very
inexpensive books from thrift stores and also putting them
online. I'm not a dealer, nor have I had a lot of experience
with them, but I wouldn't go blaming them entirely for the
shift you're seeing.


Over the last few years, more and more of these stores have started
"smart pricing" books, perhaps in response to the booming internet
resale industry. Often the prices are not so smart, though, but based
on what someone imagines is "worth something." I have noticed that
many stores are treating all dictionaries as if they are "hot." Some
trashy Collegiate 7th edition might cost as much as 5 or 10 dollars ( a
particularly egregious example). I was annoyed by this at first, but
now i appreciate that it at least discourages the resalers enough to
reserve items i want (something better than a Collegiate 7th, though.)
It is preferable to paying $20 or $50 or $100 or more to resalers.

Well, you know, I think it's perfectly reasonable of thrift
stores to "smart price" their books instead of selling them
four for a buck. One of our local stores has volunteers
working there, and donates all of their income to care for
the elderly. Why shouldn't they get $10 for a book instead
of $0.25, if people are willing to pay it?

I'm sorry, but my heart just doesn't bleed for collectors
like you (*and* me) who can no longer get an astonishing
deal every time we turn around. At least we're not 95 with
no one to care for us.


The good thing about the Internet is that
even if one dealer decides he wants to charge $200 for a book, one can
see if other dealers are selling it for $20.

This is rare, you must admit.

Absolutely not.

A range like $20 to $200 is not common
for identical books in equal condition. The high range is usually some
preposterously unreasonable price for the item. Yes, i've seen this.
I think there are some sellers who just hope some fool will come along.

It _is_ incredibly common. The only times I *don't* see
it are for some of the books for which there just aren't
a lot of copies available. And that's only because (I
think) there aren't enough copies for sale to demonstrate
the typical $1 to $10 (or $20 to $200, or whatever) range.

As an example, I chose a title randomly that I remembered
seeing sell well (new) off the shelves when I worked for
a book distributor, and looked it up in addall. (You do
know about used.addall.com, don't you? *Excellent* place
to get a good idea of the price range of a book; I go there,
look at the prices, and see if I can beat them on eBay.)

Ironweed, by William Kennedy, paperback. Discounting the
two uncorrected proofs (going for $500 and $600, latter
signed), there are 300 listings for this book (which
probably means there are about 200 copies - several are
duplicates) and the price range is $0.49 to $45.63. Note
the nearly 10x range.

I see this *all* the time. I've gotten accustomed to
thinking that I should be paying at the bottom end of the
10x range; the top end is usually either people trying to
scam a large $ amount (as you seem to think is mostly
the case) or people who actually paid a fair percent of
that and are trying to recoup, or, sometimes, people who
have a book that actually is better than those priced at
the bottom end, but haven't made it clear in their listing.
Or those who are clueless about the fact that others are
selling the same title for 1/10 their price. I suspect
the last to be the case more often than not. That's their
problem; their book will just sit there and gather dust.

I see it all the time on eBay, too. I collect "Materia
Medica" books (medical books on drugs from 1800 to ~1920)
and I have frequently seen the same author's work, in
similar condition, selling for $5 and for $50. Or even
for $200 or so. In fact, there's one such on eBay right
now: Robert Bartholow's Materia Medica (I have two copies,
one I probably paid $5 for, and a much nicer one I think
I paid $20 for): three listings, $19.99, $36.00, and
$375.00. I think the last seller is nuts, personally,
but there's no law against making a fool of yourself
online. I also suspect that the $375 copy is no better
than the $19.99 copy (which ends in 4 hours and has, so
far, no bids; if I didn't already have two copies I'd
buy it). That fool with the high price has not
provided any pictures, so I don't entertain any high
expectation that he'll ever sell his copy.


I've often seen in book searches where someone is selling a used copy
of an in-print book for twice or more the current retail price of a new
copy of the same edition. I wrote to one of these sellers and asked
him why. He replied that he didn't know, he wasn't familiar with other
people's prices.

My point. There are clueless sellers out there. It isn't
that there's a racket, or that they're trying to scam the
public (not most of them, anyway); they just haven't taken
the time to look around and see what their books are
actually worth.

So why don't you just ignore them? They're just fools;
not worth jacking up your blood pressure over.


-Allison

on 31 Dec 2005 08:17:44 -0800, Allison Turner- stated:


Ironweed, by William Kennedy, paperback. Discounting the
two uncorrected proofs (going for $500 and $600, latter
signed), there are 300 listings for this book (which
probably means there are about 200 copies - several are
duplicates) and the price range is $0.49 to $45.63. Note
the nearly 10x range.

uh. Oops. 100x range. But my point stands.

-Allison
you wouldn't know I teach math, would you?

Allison Turner- wrote:
on 31 Dec 2005 08:17:44 -0800, Allison Turner- stated:


Ironweed, by William Kennedy, paperback. Discounting the
two uncorrected proofs (going for $500 and $600, latter
signed), there are 300 listings for this book (which
probably means there are about 200 copies - several are
duplicates) and the price range is $0.49 to $45.63. Note
the nearly 10x range.

uh. Oops. 100x range. But my point stands.

-Allison
you wouldn't know I teach math, would you?

Well, I would have bet you don't teach typing.

David Ames

Allison Turner wrote:

on 31 Dec 2005 00:49:43 -0800, xerlome stated:

I used to regularly buy books for 3
for a dollar at a local Salvation Army Store, great items, old and new,
every time i went. Now i rarely see any of that level of material. I
don't believe this is due to extreme increase of personal buying.
There are clearly vastly more resalers than a few years ago.

there are probably a lot of people
like you - not big dealers - who are buying up the very
inexpensive books from thrift stores and also putting them
online.

I think you are right. Resalers, eBayers.


I think it's perfectly reasonable of thrift
stores to "smart price" their books instead of selling them
four for a buck. One of our local stores has volunteers
working there, and donates all of their income to care for
the elderly. Why shouldn't they get $10 for a book instead
of $0.25, if people are willing to pay it?

That works for me. A happy medium, under the circumstances. The
lowest end of the income scale get's the shaft, of course, but a lot of
unfortunates get some help, too. And the resalers are likely to leave
more books behind.

I'm sorry, but my heart just doesn't bleed for collectors
like you (*and* me) who can no longer get an astonishing
deal every time we turn around. At least we're not 95 with
no one to care for us.

I know. Right now i am full time caregiver for my elderly mother who
is seriously crippled and in pain with arthritis. She's feels sorry
for her old school friend who has to be in a nursing home. She often
quotes Garrison Keillor: "It could be worse." When she or i start to
complain about our lot, she finally says: "We should be glad we don't
live in Iraq."

I'm not as evolved as that yet. I still say, "That doen't mean i have
no complaint !"

A range like $20 to $200 is not common
for identical books in equal condition. The high range is usually some
preposterously unreasonable price for the item.

It _is_ incredibly common. The only times I *don't* see
it are for some of the books for which there just aren't
a lot of copies available.

I can't argue with your examples. It must be different for different
types of books. I shouldn't try to make any general statements,
because nowadays i'm 90% looking for dictionaries and language books.
When i'm seeing a book offered commonly for $20 to $50, and then
there's someone who wants $225, i just dismiss it as preposterous.
When all i see for a long time is $175, $260, etc., then i see
something like $75, i might grab it thinking this may be the best i'll
see, maybe ever. I've given in to this 3 or 4 times. But with books
like these, i'm not seeing any $20.

Ironweed, by William Kennedy, paperback.
the price range is $0.49 to $45.63.

For a common paperback. Weird

I've often seen in book searches where someone is selling a used copy
of an in-print book for twice or more the current retail price of a new
copy of the same edition.

So why don't you just ignore them? They're just fools;
not worth jacking up your blood pressure over.

I can see why it may seem as if i suffer from high blood pressure. The
truth is, i'm not as rabid as i sound.

ER Lyon

"xerlome" wrote in message
oups.com...
In "Collecting Dictionaries" thread i wrote:

I have rarely spent much for them until recently since competition from
bookdealing racketeers has artificially inflated prices and scarcified
many desirable books.

my-wings wrote:

Alice bookdealing...hopefully not a racketeer!

I know and like some bookdealers, but some of my views may offend some
who read them here. I am bound to speak my mind, so i can only hope
they won't take it personally.



Well, as long as you know what you're getting in to....


I am primarily referring to used book dealers who buy from low cost
markets and mark the prices way up. The books were already available
to me (the user, the buying public) at an affordable price. Now, if i
want them, i need to pay serious money.


I don't know how many thrift stores you visit, but it's highly unlikely that
you will be able to find every title you want and need by dropping into the
local Goodwill on the lucky day your special book happens to be there. Even
if all the books you wanted were available at those shops, then the price
you pay for not making the rounds regularly and first is the dealer's
premium for making it his business to seek out and find these books and make
them available to specialist collectors who want them.

No book dealer could survive by selling fifty-cent books for a dollar
(multiple jokes about penny sellers aside). The dealer has to become
knowledgeable and proficient at finding the hidden gems in plain sight and
then matching them to the appropriate market that will value them highly
enough for the dealer to survive and do it again another day.

Book dealers add other value to the transaction as well. For one thing, they
collectively visit many, many more thrift shops than you could and assemble
a stock that will let you have the exact title, in the exact condition, at
the exact time you want it. And it takes them years of living on starvation
wages and eating their mistakes to learn that skill.

Besides, it's a fallacy to think that book dealers get all of their stock
from thrift stores at pennies a book. Book dealers buy from estates, at
auction, on eBay, from walk-in customers if they have a brick and morter
store, and from other book dealers, either because the book is in their
specialty and they have customers for it, or because the other dealer didn't
make enough money to stay in business. A dealer may pay up to a third or
half of what they think they can sell a book for. So...that $200 title may
well have cost the book dealer $100 before it ever sees an on-line listing.
And out of the $100 profit that he might get (some day, after tying his
money up for years), most of that will go to pay the rent, insurance, and
other expenses of being in business.


Since the recent boom in internet selling, which seems to be growing by
the day, so many professionals and amateurs alike have entered the
market that competition for cheap used books is extreme.

It is the rampant buying of already available low cost books for resale
that i call a racket, and this those who do it racketeers.


And yet (taking the other side from my comments above), the competition
among sellers has never been higher. There really and truly are sellers who
have huge amounts of stock listed on line for less than $1. Just plug any
common title into eBay to find perfectly nice hard-back first editions going
for literally pennies. There is no collusion among sellers to keep prices
artifically inflated. Just the opposite, in fact. Most of the out-of-print
sellers are small, independent businesses. They do the same kind of research
their customer's can do on line, and they price their titles to sell, based
on scarcity and condition.

What with a purchaser's ability to stalk eBay listings and compare prices
from multiple sellers on large book-search sites, the internet has made
this, in my opinion, the best time ever to be a collector. If there are
bargains to be found, you can find them on line.


John A. Stovall wrote:

Odd way to describe those who make our collecting possible.

Thrift stores and other low price markets have made my collecting
possible. Had the markest been what they are now when i began my
dictionary collection, it would not be anywhere near what it is today,
as i could never have afforded it.

I for one am grateful to my many friends who are book dealer and have
helped me grow my collections

I am more grateful to the thrift markets. I only go to the dealers as
a last resort when i can't find what i want, which i am doing more and
more out of desperation as the low cost markets are "cleaned up".


In your earlier post, I believe you said you had been at this for six years.
The internet has been "around" as a book-buying venue for most of that time.
I respectfully submit that what's changed in that time is not the advent of
preditory book dealers, but your own requirements.

Your collection has matured, and you've already found most of the "easy"
titles. You are now looking for the scarcer items, and naturally they are
going to cost more. You can wait years and years for them to show up in your
local Goodwill (an they probably never will), or you can go to a book
dealer, who has quite probably paid more than thrift store prices for that
particular book in the first place.

Welcome to the joys and aggravation of book collecting!


Alice

--
Book collecting terms illustrated. Occasional books for sale.
http://www.mywingsbooks.com/

I appreciate the thoughtful replies. I will reply to them, but will
first clarify my view.

When we by a new book, we are paying numerous people who made the book
possible. We pay the writer, possibly an editor, illustrator, and/or
photographer, the publisher, the manufacturer and those who produce the
materials and machinery used to manufacture the book, and, finally,
cuts for the distributor and seller - as well as various people
employed along the way. Each gets no more than a single or double
digit percentage.

When a resaler picks up a used book for, say, a dollar, and then sells
it for the price of a new book or even higher, we are paying the dealer
a four (or even five) digit percent profit for buying and holding an
already available book after the original buyer has paid the legitimate
costs and later decided to donate it to a charity thrift store or
public library. Even $20.00 is a 2000% markup. I see this as a kind
of market theft.

So this is how resalers artificially inflate used book prices and
scarcify good books to serve only their own profit. This is not a
service to the general public, but only to the dealer and to the elite
buyer who doesn't have to compete with the mass of poorer people. This
further impoverishes low income buyers, establishing that it is only
the relatively well-to-do who may own these books.

I know for a fact that there are dealers of large turnover who buy up
books at low prices, attempt to sell them for a while, then take
leftovers to the dump rather than sell them cheap or donate them to
thrift stores. This makes sense to the dealers, of course, because
cheap books compete with their sales, whether they or a thrift store
sells them. Thrift store also dump books, but at least they are
cheaply available for a while and well picked over before they do.

I personally know of part time book dealers who work for thrift markets
and pre-sort the books that come in. I also personally know of
dealers who have insiders at libraries saving desirable items for them
before library sales. Particularly in the case of discards, this
practice is reprehensible in my view because the public largely pays
for the library and its books, and the sale is the public's last chance
to acquire them at a low cost.

I have often watched resalers at sales in a mad rush to grab the best
books ahead of the reading public (and other dealers, of course). As
one who buys for himself, my sympathies go to those who must compete
with them. I wish there were a way to allow the reading public plenty
of time to look over the already available low cost used books before
the profiteers get to them, but there is obviously no reasonable way to
control this in a free market.

I am not opposed to all bookselling, only certain practices which i
find abusive. As i have already said, i have liked used book dealers i
have known, and i can relate to what they do. As a matter of fact, i
have the bug in me that would have me join their ranks, and the
aptitude to do it. I may do so if i feel i can succeed without
compromising my principles. We vote by our actions for what we feel is
right and the kind of world we want to live in, which is why i feel i
cannot practice this kind of resaling.

ER Lyon

xerlome wrote:
I appreciate the thoughtful replies. I will reply to them, but will
first clarify my view.

When we by a new book, we are paying numerous people who made the book
possible. We pay the writer, possibly an editor, illustrator, and/or
photographer, the publisher, the manufacturer and those who produce the
materials and machinery used to manufacture the book, and, finally,
cuts for the distributor and seller - as well as various people
employed along the way. Each gets no more than a single or double
digit percentage.

When a resaler picks up a used book for, say, a dollar, and then sells
it for the price of a new book or even higher, we are paying the dealer
a four (or even five) digit percent profit for buying and holding an
already available book after the original buyer has paid the legitimate
costs and later decided to donate it to a charity thrift store or
public library. Even $20.00 is a 2000% markup. I see this as a kind
of market theft.


While I sometimes feel the same frustration that you express,
ultimately I side with the dealers. I think a sizeable markup is fair,
and I also think that dealers add value, which I also should pay for.

The comparison to new books is not quite applicable. A new book will
be returned to the publisher for a refund if it sits for any length of
time on a new book seller's shelf. That seller takes little risk and
invests relatively little in inventory to have the book sit there for a
few weeks in hopes of a customer. A used book dealer, however, has no
such recourse, and therefore accrues a cost that I think you are not
accounting for: his/her money is tied up in that book until it sells.
(And in thousands more books, none of which earn interest sitting
there.) The fact that the donor paid the initial "legitimate" costs
becomes irrelevant once the book hits the used market and is subject to
the supply and demand levels therein.

When I add that to the dealer's other overhead costs, and the value of
the dealer spending his time to corral the book rather than me spending
mine, and the ability of the dealer to tell me more about the book,
steer me to other books of interest and keep eyes open for my wants, my
conclusion is that the profit is not obscene. It's worth it to pay the
higher, even much higher, price he ends up charging rather than try to
beat the dealer to the bargain. If I then cannot afford some things I
want, such is life for a collector. If I want them badly enough I'll
try to hunt them down myself and prepare for a long wait, and if not,
then I am not willing to pay the price and that's my decision and I
can't blame anyone.

All of this applies only to a tough book to find. If someone wants a
lot of money for a book that's easy to find much cheaper, then I'm not
going to pay what he wants, and odds are no one else will either and
the dealer will learn not to try that.

If i eat at a restaurant, I expect to pay a sizeable markup, not a
marginal one, for overhead and the owner's risk, plus value added by
chef's skills, whereas if I cook for myself I avoid all that but must
eat my own cooking. If I can't eat out every night, then I can't.

Just my humble opinion.

- Todd T.