1796 B-4 Draped Bust Dollar -- Opinions??

Hi, Everyone.

I recently had a coin graded by ANACS for someone wanting advice. It
came back F-12 Details, Cleaned. Here are the pics:

http://home.comcast.net/~bhartman24/1796secondobv.jpg
http://home.comcast.net/~bhartman24/1796secondrev.jpg

The reason I had it graded was for selling purposes. How do you think
it would do on Ebay? Or is Heritage a better choice? Any advice you
could give me would be appreciated. I asked some people on the PCGS
U.S. Coin Forum, and they sounded like Ebay would be an okay venue.
What do you think it would go for?

Brian

Brian Hartman wrote:
Hi, Everyone.

I recently had a coin graded by ANACS for someone wanting advice. It
came back F-12 Details, Cleaned. Here are the pics:

http://home.comcast.net/~bhartman24/1796secondobv.jpg
http://home.comcast.net/~bhartman24/1796secondrev.jpg

The reason I had it graded was for selling purposes. How do you think
it would do on Ebay? Or is Heritage a better choice? Any advice you
could give me would be appreciated. I asked some people on the PCGS
U.S. Coin Forum, and they sounded like Ebay would be an okay venue.
What do you think it would go for?

Look over the sales data in the Heritage auctions? Check other
dealer/auction site data. Get comfortable with a reserve. Give Ebay a
try with that data?


--
JMark

JMark wrote:
Brian Hartman wrote:
Hi, Everyone.

I recently had a coin graded by ANACS for someone wanting advice. It
came back F-12 Details, Cleaned. Here are the pics:

http://home.comcast.net/~bhartman24/1796secondobv.jpg
http://home.comcast.net/~bhartman24/1796secondrev.jpg

The reason I had it graded was for selling purposes. How do you think
it would do on Ebay? Or is Heritage a better choice? Any advice you
could give me would be appreciated. I asked some people on the PCGS
U.S. Coin Forum, and they sounded like Ebay would be an okay venue.
What do you think it would go for?

Look over the sales data in the Heritage auctions? Check other
dealer/auction site data. Get comfortable with a reserve. Give Ebay a
try with that data?


--
JMark

Hi, JMark.

I've looked over some of the Heritage and Ebay auctions. My issue is
that the coins Heritage auctions always look overexposed and washed
out, so I hesitate to go through them, but I'm not sure about how to
price the starting bid, how long to make the auction, etc., if I go the
Ebay route. I'm selling this for someone else, so I want to be extra
careful with it.

On 12 May 2006 11:05:51 -0700, Brian Hartman wrote:

I've looked over some of the Heritage and Ebay auctions. My issue is
that the coins Heritage auctions always look overexposed and washed
out,

Hm. I was _just_ there, and they have an "adjust brightness/contrast"
right next to the coin images. Maybe you have flash turned off and your
functionality is limited?

so I hesitate to go through them, but I'm not sure about how to
price the starting bid, how long to make the auction, etc., if I go the
Ebay route.

Well, you don't want a short auction, go for the standard 7 days. Short
auctions are often used by people who want a quick sale for less than
honorable reasons, and I am probably not alone in considering a short
auction to be a red flag.

I'd see heritage and eBay's completed auctions for pricing history, and
then start the bidding at maybe 50% of the average. Because it's
someone else's coin, explain to them that this is to encourage bidding
to start, but high enough to protect him from losing out entirely.
Or you can start bidding very low and have a reserve at his absolute
rock-bottom. It costs more but that's cheper than selling it way under
what he thinks it's worth. Let the owner decide, just present the
options to him.

I'm selling this for someone else, so I want to be extra
careful with it.

Understood and appreciated.

One thing - What does "B-4" mean in this context? I'm ignorant of 18th
century US coins but do you mean "G-4"?

Dave Hinz wrote:
On 12 May 2006 11:05:51 -0700, Brian Hartman wrote:

I've looked over some of the Heritage and Ebay auctions. My issue is
that the coins Heritage auctions always look overexposed and washed
out,

Hm. I was _just_ there, and they have an "adjust brightness/contrast"
right next to the coin images. Maybe you have flash turned off and your
functionality is limited?

Hi, Dave.

I've got the plugins necessary, and I've adjusted the images when I've
looked. My fear is that the bidders will take the images at face
value, and that the adjustments allowable by the interface are
insufficient for getting a really good look at the coin. I've looked
at several Morgans being auctioned on the Heritage site, and my first
response to most of them is, "Geez, what are they hiding???" I really
don't want people to be left with that impression of this coin.



so I hesitate to go through them, but I'm not sure about how to
price the starting bid, how long to make the auction, etc., if I go the
Ebay route.

Well, you don't want a short auction, go for the standard 7 days. Short
auctions are often used by people who want a quick sale for less than
honorable reasons, and I am probably not alone in considering a short
auction to be a red flag.

Thanks. That's what I figured. Much better to let the bids stack up
than to be perceived as trying to take the money and run!


I'd see heritage and eBay's completed auctions for pricing history, and
then start the bidding at maybe 50% of the average. Because it's
someone else's coin, explain to them that this is to encourage bidding
to start, but high enough to protect him from losing out entirely.
Or you can start bidding very low and have a reserve at his absolute
rock-bottom. It costs more but that's cheper than selling it way under
what he thinks it's worth. Let the owner decide, just present the
options to him.


I hesitate to have a reserve, because I think reserves tend to chase
bidders away, but in this case, I think a reserve would probably be the
best option. It's better to not sell than to leave the person I'm
selling for feeling screwed. Thanks for your advice!

I'm selling this for someone else, so I want to be extra
careful with it.

Understood and appreciated.

One thing - What does "B-4" mean in this context? I'm ignorant of 18th
century US coins but do you mean "G-4"?

B-4 is short for Bolender-4, a die variety of bust dollars of this
year:

http://www.coinfacts.com/silver_doll...dollar_b04.htm

"B-4 is from the same small date obverse as B-3, with the following
corrections by the engraver: the curl on top of the head and stars on
right are perfect. For the reverse, there are eight plain berries in
the wreath (in B-1, B-2, and B-3, which share the same Small Letters
reverse, there are only 7 berries in the wreath)."

It's apparently one of the more common varieties of this issue.

On 12 May 2006 11:36:09 -0700, Brian Hartman wrote:

I've got the plugins necessary, and I've adjusted the images when I've
looked. My fear is that the bidders will take the images at face
value, and that the adjustments allowable by the interface are
insufficient for getting a really good look at the coin.

I wonder if they'll let you include a link to your own webserver with
the raw scans, in an auction there? If you need webspace, I've got
plenty, just say the word.

I've looked
at several Morgans being auctioned on the Heritage site, and my first
response to most of them is, "Geez, what are they hiding???" I really
don't want people to be left with that impression of this coin.

Absolutely agree.

Well, you don't want a short auction, go for the standard 7 days. Short
auctions are often used by people who want a quick sale for less than
honorable reasons, and I am probably not alone in considering a short
auction to be a red flag.

Thanks. That's what I figured. Much better to let the bids stack up
than to be perceived as trying to take the money and run!

Right. Also don't post with a Chinese email address, that always helps.

I'd see heritage and eBay's completed auctions for pricing history, and
then start the bidding at maybe 50% of the average. Because it's
someone else's coin, explain to them that this is to encourage bidding
to start, but high enough to protect him from losing out entirely.
Or you can start bidding very low and have a reserve at his absolute
rock-bottom. It costs more but that's cheper than selling it way under
what he thinks it's worth. Let the owner decide, just present the
options to him.

I hesitate to have a reserve, because I think reserves tend to chase
bidders away, but in this case, I think a reserve would probably be the
best option. It's better to not sell than to leave the person I'm
selling for feeling screwed. Thanks for your advice!

When it's just me selling my stuff, I don't mind so much taking a hit on
a single item, because usually I can make it up elsewhere and it all
evens out. But in this case, I'd ask him to set a reserve, then you
evaluate it for realism and advise accordingly. Yes, some people won't
bid on an auction with an unknown reserve. Some listings even _say_
what the reserve is, which I've never understood but thought I'd
mention. (why not just start bidding there then? I dunno.)

I'm selling this for someone else, so I want to be extra
careful with it.

Understood and appreciated.
One thing - What does "B-4" mean in this context? I'm ignorant of 18th
century US coins but do you mean "G-4"?

B-4 is short for Bolender-4, a die variety of bust dollars of this
year:
http://www.coinfacts.com/silver_doll...dollar_b04.htm

Ah. excellent, thank you. I'm measurably less ignorant now.

It's apparently one of the more common varieties of this issue.

It's fascinating the amount of hand-engraving and craftsmanship which
went into the early dies.

Brian writes:

Hi, Everyone.

I recently had a coin graded by ANACS for someone wanting advice. It
came back F-12 Details, Cleaned. Here are the pics:

http://home.comcast.net/~bhartman24/1796secondobv.jpg
http://home.comcast.net/~bhartman24/1796secondrev.jpg

The reason I had it graded was for selling purposes. How do you think
it would do on Ebay? Or is Heritage a better choice? Any advice you
could give me would be appreciated. I asked some people on the PCGS
U.S. Coin Forum, and they sounded like Ebay would be an okay venue.
What do you think it would go for?



Been away at a show, Brian, so couldn't reply before this. No one in
the replies seems to mention that the coin is cleaned, and although
many early dollars have been cleaned, this cleaning is obvious enough
so that it is unlikely that PCGS or NGC would certify it at all. Since
an UNCLEANED F-12 (I agree with the detail grade) would sell for
$2000-$2500, I would simply start bidding a $995 in a 7 day auction.
It's typical retail would be about $1200, just under what an uncleaned
VG would bring. You may do as well or better. Or, set a reserve of $995
which will cost you a $10 reserve fee on top of the eBay listing fee
and start at $250. That will encourage bids, and you may get the type
of activity that will bring a fair price. I would mention that the coin
has been lightly cleaned and/or show the slab so stating that. If it
does sell then eBay won't charge the $10 reserve fee, but if you relist
it, the reserve fee is again imposed.

Ira

Ira wrote:

Been away at a show, Brian, so couldn't reply before this. No one in
the replies seems to mention that the coin is cleaned, and although
many early dollars have been cleaned, this cleaning is obvious enough
so that it is unlikely that PCGS or NGC would certify it at all. Since
an UNCLEANED F-12 (I agree with the detail grade) would sell for
$2000-$2500, I would simply start bidding a $995 in a 7 day auction.
It's typical retail would be about $1200, just under what an uncleaned
VG would bring. You may do as well or better. Or, set a reserve of $995
which will cost you a $10 reserve fee on top of the eBay listing fee
and start at $250. That will encourage bids, and you may get the type
of activity that will bring a fair price. I would mention that the coin
has been lightly cleaned and/or show the slab so stating that. If it
does sell then eBay won't charge the $10 reserve fee, but if you relist
it, the reserve fee is again imposed.

Ira

Hi, Ira.

You're right that PCGS wouldn't slab it. Been there, done that, got
the bodybag to prove it. I'm a little surprised that you think it
would bring less than uncleaned VG money, because from what I can see,
the details are far better than that, even acknowledging the cleaning.


I think the thing I might end up doing (pending the seller's
permission) is announcing the Ebay auction on the B/S/T forum on PCGS
and here, and then setting an opening bid of $1000 on a 1-week auction.
(Incidentally, is there any difference between a starting bid of $995
and $1000?)

Come to think of it, I think I might just go with a reserve. It will
at least attract people's attention more than a high opening bid will.
If I lose people who don't want to hit the reserve, that's okay,
because I guess that's the point.

Brian writes:



You're right that PCGS wouldn't slab it. Been there, done that, got
the bodybag to prove it. I'm a little surprised that you think it
would bring less than uncleaned VG money, because from what I can see,
the details are far better than that, even acknowledging the cleaning.
......



The cleaning will make a signifiant diffrence. In my experience, A coin
i n that price range will drop in value more than just a single grade,
but less than two grades. VG-8 has a high retail of $1500..perhaps a
typical retail now that Graysheet bid has increased to $1225.
Therefore, subtracting a bit more for the cleaning, I arrived at about
$1000.

Crianly a common date Morgan dolar in Fine miht be worth $14 and a
cleaned one $8..just for the silver. But for a high demand early bust
dollar, the value could well be cut in half.

As a I wrote, you might get a bit more, but cleaning is a major
detrrent to any bids at all from savvy collectors, so you'll attract
those with bugetary constraints or those not too experienced. $995 is
essentailly $1000, but psychologically, the under $1000 price might
well help to get the ball rolling. You decide.

Ira