"Ping" Victor About International Abuses In The Congo - Discussion (w/ Stamps!)

On Sun, 3 Aug 2008 00:24:56 +0200, "Victor Manta"
wrote:

wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 2 Aug 2008 11:26:55 +0200, "Victor Manta"
wrote:

It is more difficult to judge about your preferred example, P. Lumumba,
who
stayed at power a too short time, so that it is not easy to find out now
which were his real intentions. I already gave you a hint in this
direction.

Which, by the way, was a false "accusation" incurred by reading 1 web
page. But, I digress here. snip

Here is the USSR stamp, issued 1961, May 31, Scott 2486:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ba_1961_2k.jpg

As I said, 1 reference. And only 1.

I too have seen that stamp. There are more stamps / references of him
in non-"communist" settings than there will ever be in the propaganda
/ Cold War / media hype circles.

So, right here and now, because he has had a stamp issued for him, was
he or was he not a communist? The majority of the articles out there
will state that he was not.

Who is one to believe? One source with a bias or the rest of the
world?

"This same disclosure showed that U.S. perception at the time was that
Lumumba was a communist.[17] Eisenhower's reported call, at a meeting
of his national security advisers, for Lumumba's elimination must have
been brought on by this perception. Both Belgium and the US were
clearly influenced in their unfavourable stance towards Lumumba by the
Cold War. He seemed to gravitate around the Soviet Union. Arguably
that was because that was the only place he could find support in his
country's effort to rid itself of colonial rule, and not because he
was a communist.[18] (Ironically, the US was the first country Lumumba
requested help from).[19] — Lumumba, for his part, not only denied
being a Communist, but said he found colonialism and Communism to be
equally deplorable, and professed his personal preference for
neutrality between the East and West.[20]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrice_Lumumba

Underneath this is the stamp you mentioned above. Once again, Wiki is
a jumping off point. Here, however are quotes from specific
references.

--- So, Victor, I will ask you a simple question. If anyone here was
put on a communist country stamp, would that person be automatically
considered a communist?

Guilt by association, without act? That logic does not hold enough
water to quench a thirst. A communist in the totalitarian sense of
the word, not in the sense of communal living like we've had in the
states since the mid - late '60s - which could be called "communism".
What is a person who lives in a commune? Do tell?

Please don't skip this over with rhetoric or some quick wave of the
hand posturing. You have first hand knowledge of communism.

wrote in message
...
On Sun, 3 Aug 2008 00:24:56 +0200, "Victor Manta"
wrote:

wrote in message
. ..
On Sat, 2 Aug 2008 11:26:55 +0200, "Victor Manta"
wrote:

Preliminary note: we speak here about a stamp (USSR), about the dead person
(Patrice Lumumba) shown on it, about other stamps, and about the historical
context of the whole.

Here is the USSR stamp, issued 1961, May 31, Scott 2486:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ba_1961_2k.jpg

snip for brevity

So, right here and now, because he has had a stamp issued for him, was
he or was he not a communist? The majority of the articles out there
will state that he was not.

Formally, only a member of a national communist party is/was a communist. By
a simple syllogism, because Congo hadn't a communist party, formally PL
wasn't a communist.

What is sure is that he behaved as a communist ally. He brought Soviet
military counselors and even troops in his country, a fact that created
supplementary tensions, something that is covered on the Web. Such a
behavior, in the context of a worldwide war (incorrectly called the Cold
War), could be perceived per se as an act of war.

Concerning the Cold War, remember the blockade of Berlin (1949) and
especially the Cuban Missiles crisis (1962) when the "cold" war was so near
to become a nuclear (which means a "very hot") one. A big part of this cold
war had as playground the African continent, where the USSR tried to use the
decolonization movement in order to infiltrate itself, and this way to
extend its colonial power (this after having colonized a half of Europe,
after the WWII).

--- So, Victor, I will ask you a simple question. If anyone here was
put on a communist country stamp, would that person be automatically
considered a communist?

No, but each time it is necessary to pay some attention and be aware of some
facts (you know, eternal vigilance is the price of freedom, like said a
great American). As an example, I'll take two successive USSR stamps: 1962.
6. Sept., 85th birth anniversary of Dzerzhinsky (the father of the Bolshevik
secret police), Mi. 2642. and 1962, 10th Sept., 100th birth anniversary of
O. Henry (American writer), Mi. 2643. Guess which of them was a communist.
;-)

Now, on an even more serios note, one can ask itself why would a country
have issued _both_ stamps? Couldn't it be that its leaders had something to
conceal and they were wiping out some traces, by creating confusion? In this
case they issued in succession a stamp of a very nicely writing author (of
my youth - O. Henry) and one showing a torturer and a criminal (F.
Dzerzhinsky), who today would be judged at the Haag court of justice. Guess
why.

BTW, before the Lumumba stamp, 1962, 29 May. Mi 2487, USSR issued a set of
three stamps dedicated to the 91st birth anniversary of Lenin (Mi. 2484 -
2486). Again, the same question, guess which of them was a communist.

( If anyone here was
put on a communist country stamp, would that person be automatically
considered a communist?)
Guilt by association, without act? That logic does not hold enough
water to quench a thirst.

Here you have created a straw man and then you are easily destroying it.

Please don't skip this over with rhetoric or some quick wave of the
hand posturing. You have first hand knowledge of communism.

Because we speak here about a man on a stamp, for which I even presented a
scan, I was able to answer you a bit more extensively, hopefully without
risking too much of being accused again, like in: "...unimportant to
rec.stamps.DISCUSS. Impertinent too INHO."

I can only hope that at least Tracy won't find my answer unimportant or
impertinent to him. Will see...

--
Victor Manta

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On Sun, 3 Aug 2008 16:38:07 +0200, "Victor Manta"
wrote:

Preliminary note: we speak here about a stamp (USSR), about the dead person
(Patrice Lumumba) shown on it, about other stamps, and about the historical
context of the whole.

I won't cut out important parts like you seem to have done.

So, right here and now, because he has had a stamp issued for him, was
he or was he not a communist? The majority of the articles out there
will state that he was not.

Formally, only a member of a national communist party is/was a communist. By
a simple syllogism, because Congo hadn't a communist party, formally PL
wasn't a communist.

Then you admit that he wasn't a communist? Wow. All of that previous
and now he admits it.

Now, here we'll go again on attempting to build up a case on a bad
foundation...

What is sure is that he behaved as a communist ally. He brought Soviet
military counselors and even troops in his country, a fact that created
supplementary tensions, something that is covered on the Web. Such a
behavior, in the context of a worldwide war (incorrectly called the Cold
War), could be perceived per se as an act of war.

But - was not. Dag Hammarskjold was working on quelling the tensions
in the Congo. The Kasai and Katanga regions seceded. The U.N. did
naught to help. Lumumba asked the U.S. and then the Soviets - in that
order - to help out. Everyone was a suspect on the "McCarthy List".

snip Cold War adjunct...)

--- So, Victor, I will ask you a simple question. If anyone here was
put on a communist country stamp, would that person be automatically
considered a communist?

No, but each time it is necessary to pay some attention and be aware of some
facts (you know, eternal vigilance is the price of freedom, like said a
great American).

I believe I've been pretty diligent about this subject. It may be a
bit lopsided, because I have invested more time in the subject matter.

Now, on an even more serios note, one can ask itself why would a country
have issued _both_ stamps? Couldn't it be that its leaders had something to
conceal and they were wiping out some traces, by creating confusion? In this
case they issued in succession a stamp of a very nicely writing author (of
my youth - O. Henry) and one showing a torturer and a criminal (F.
Dzerzhinsky), who today would be judged at the Haag court of justice. Guess
why.

Is this anti-communist sympathies? I too am not enamored of the
totalitarian ways, but because Union Island (which has few residents
in the Grenadines) issues a stamp, does it make it politically
correct?

BTW, before the Lumumba stamp, 1962, 29 May. Mi 2487, USSR issued a set of
three stamps dedicated to the 91st birth anniversary of Lenin (Mi. 2484 -
2486). Again, the same question, guess which of them was a communist.

Lenin?

If anyone here was
put on a communist country stamp, would that person be automatically
considered a communist?)
Guilt by association, without act? That logic does not hold enough
water to quench a thirst.

Here you have created a straw man and then you are easily destroying it.

Ahh, but your examples presented seem to support it.

Because we speak here about a man on a stamp, for which I even presented a
scan, I was able to answer you a bit more extensively, hopefully without
risking too much of being accused again, like in: "...unimportant to
rec.stamps.DISCUSS. Impertinent too INHO."

And - you base your theory on one stamp. How many stamps were issued
since 1840? How many were politically incorrect?

I can only hope that at least Tracy won't find my answer unimportant or
impertinent to him. Will see...

No, because this is EXACTLY the stance that the world has of the
Congo. I believe I have just found another person who simply doesn't
believe it happened because it wasn't in his back yard.

I never lived during the German Holocaust. I do believe it happened.

I never lived in the Congo during any time period between 1885 -
today. I do believe that the country is being raped, pillaged and
plundered. I also believe that the only Congolese administrator will
balls enough to stand up to Belgian royal court was assassinated
because he tried to pull his country together - as well as Africa,
AWAY from the colonialists. Unfortunately, this was tainted by those
who wanted to keep the Cold War flowing...

I'm still waiting for my portrait to be put on a communist country
stamp.

wrote in message
...
snip

I'm still waiting for my portrait to be put on a communist country
stamp.

The wait is over - enjoy the movie!

http://www.sna-on.postalstamps.biz/i...cy-ussr-08.jpg

--
Victor Manta

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Spanish North Africa: http://www.sna-on.postalstamps.biz/
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On Sun, 3 Aug 2008 20:55:16 +0200, "Victor Manta"
wrote:

wrote in message
.. .
snip

I'm still waiting for my portrait to be put on a communist country
stamp.

The wait is over - enjoy the movie!

http://www.sna-on.postalstamps.biz/i...cy-ussr-08.jpg

OK, OK... I am now a communist folk hero.

"Victor Manta"
(you know, eternal vigilance is the price of freedom, like said a
great American).

There is now an update:
"The price of freedom is now $1.82c a Litre"

....and where does your money go?
A Sheik in Qatar recently flew his Lamborghini to London for an oil change.
round trip? $23,000
We are the only life form on the Planet that needs to become extinct.

On Mon, 4 Aug 2008 08:08:22 +0800, "rodney"
wrote:


"Victor Manta"
(you know, eternal vigilance is the price of freedom, like said a
great American).

There is now an update:
"The price of freedom is now $1.82c a Litre"

Well, I just got it for $4.19 / gallon.

...and where does your money go?

OPEC?

A Sheik in Qatar recently flew his Lamborghini to London for an oil change.
round trip? $23,000

Well, I nevah...

We are the only life form on the Planet that needs to become extinct.

Hmmm... agreed.

wrote in message
...
On Mon, 4 Aug 2008 08:08:22 +0800, "rodney"
wrote:

A Sheik in Qatar recently flew his Lamborghini to London for an oil
change.
round trip? $23,000

Well, I nevah...

We are the only life form on the Planet that needs to become extinct.

Hmmm... agreed.

Please speak only for yourself, gentlemen...

If this Sheik had bought his 25th horse or his 14th wife, nobody had
something to say (due to the sacrosanct right to multiculturalism), even if
by all means, resources consumption included, it would be much more costly.
But because one can't quite rely on the local technicians, and he flew his
USD 400,000 "Batman" Lamborghini to the U.K., it is a scandal.

Quite nobody mentions that every other ordinary celebrity, Al Gore
including, does regularly similar trips with his/her private jet, which is
not less expensive.

If somebody from outside wouls require all of us stoping collecting stamps,
because this activity consumes a lot of resources too, not many would agree
either.

But because an ultra-rich person spent $ 23K (under 1% of his car's price)
for an oil change, some participants are ready to sacrifice the whole
humanity, this after having bravely fought against alleged colonialists...

Anyway, I don't want to die because they feel guilty for others and/or for
themselves..., but live my life, and continue this way with my main hobby,
the stamp collecting.

--
Victor Manta

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Art on Stamps: http://artonstamps.org/
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Communism on Stamps: http://reds-on.postalstamps.biz/
Spanish North Africa: http://www.sna-on.postalstamps.biz/
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A bit tetchy tonight, Victor?

"Victor Manta"
Please speak only for yourself, gentlemen...

"rodney" wrote in message
...
"Victor Manta"
Please speak only for yourself, gentlemen...

A bit tetchy tonight, Victor?

It's 12:41 PM in Bern now, Rodney :-)

--
Victor