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France defs - 1955 allegory of "France"



 
 
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  #1  
Old May 21st 08, 09:15 PM posted to rec.collecting.stamps.discuss
malcolm
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 232
Default France defs - 1955 allegory of "France"

I have several copies of the 15f red, 20f blue, and 25f red of this
issue.

As part of an ongoing investigation into all my world "common"
definitives I have eaxamined these under a lw u/v lamp.

To my surpsise I find all 3 on a paper with no reaction and also all 3
with various intensities of reaction from a quite dull to a quite but
not intense bright - the reactions being on copies mostly postmarked
between 1957 and 1959 ( where a date can be identified ).

There is no mention of this variation in SG specialised France so I
surmise that any change in paper-coating is not in connection with
postal mechanisation, but purely a formulation which flouresces "by
accident".

Does anyone have any information, theories or just plain guesses as to
what happened here?

I should add there are quite different shades - or possibly intensity
of colour also, but this seems to be unconnected with the degree of
flourescence although frankly I do not have enough copies of any of
them to come to any conclusion , with a minimum of 4 and maximum of 8
copies.

It seems to me that anyome with a large number of copies of this issue
has the opportunity of some meaningful reasearch here.

Any cerebral input gratefully received.

Malcolm
Ads
  #2  
Old May 21st 08, 11:16 PM posted to rec.collecting.stamps.discuss
Pierre COURTIADE[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 55
Default France defs - 1955 allegory of "France"

Hello Malcolm,

I am not at all a specialist of this stamp that we call in France
"Marianne de Muller" (Muller is the designer of the stamp).

It was issued in panes of 100 stamps, strips for "Roulettes" and
booklets of 20 or 8 stamps. This may explain differences in papers that
you noticed.

--

All the best,
Pierre Courtiade

  #3  
Old May 22nd 08, 10:52 AM posted to rec.collecting.stamps.discuss
Dominique Stéphan
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 38
Default France defs - 1955 allegory of "France"

malcolm a écrit:
I have several copies of the 15f red, 20f blue, and 25f red of this
issue.

As part of an ongoing investigation into all my world "common"
definitives I have eaxamined these under a lw u/v lamp.

To my surpsise I find all 3 on a paper with no reaction and also all 3
with various intensities of reaction from a quite dull to a quite but
not intense bright - the reactions being on copies mostly postmarked
between 1957 and 1959 ( where a date can be identified ).

There is no mention of this variation in SG specialised France so I
surmise that any change in paper-coating is not in connection with
postal mechanisation, but purely a formulation which flouresces "by
accident".

Does anyone have any information, theories or just plain guesses as to
what happened here?

I should add there are quite different shades - or possibly intensity
of colour also, but this seems to be unconnected with the degree of
flourescence although frankly I do not have enough copies of any of
them to come to any conclusion , with a minimum of 4 and maximum of 8
copies.

It seems to me that anyome with a large number of copies of this issue
has the opportunity of some meaningful reasearch here.

Any cerebral input gratefully received.


Hi,

Papers aren't studied that much in France. The only
special fluorescent paper variety is the 0,25 Coq
by Decaris "gold yellow".

On used copies, the water used may change the paper reaction,
it's what has likely happened.

--
Cordialement
Dominique Stéphan
http://www.blog-philatelie.com/ Mon blog philatélie
http://www.timbre-poste.com/ Timbres-poste d'usage courant
http://amisdemarianne.free.fr/ Cercle des Amis de Marianne
  #4  
Old May 23rd 08, 04:20 AM posted to rec.collecting.stamps.discuss
Rein
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 335
Default France defs - 1955 allegory of "France"

Malcolm,

not just in France but in most countries during the late fifties postage
stamps got printed on paper that contained a varying amount of optical
brightening agents just to give the stamps a "whiter than white"
appearance. Philatelists didn't noticed this until the postal
administrrations started using coloured luminescent substances in order to
detect the stamps on cover (o.e. for postal mechanisation).

In the Netherlands the definitives als had the OBA's added in the
1957+ period and it did get unnoticed until 1974 by philatelists.

groetjes, Rein

Op Wed, 21 May 2008 22:15:27 +0200 schreef malcolm
:

I have several copies of the 15f red, 20f blue, and 25f red of this
issue.

As part of an ongoing investigation into all my world "common"
definitives I have eaxamined these under a lw u/v lamp.

To my surpsise I find all 3 on a paper with no reaction and also all 3
with various intensities of reaction from a quite dull to a quite but
not intense bright - the reactions being on copies mostly postmarked
between 1957 and 1959 ( where a date can be identified ).

There is no mention of this variation in SG specialised France so I
surmise that any change in paper-coating is not in connection with
postal mechanisation, but purely a formulation which flouresces "by
accident".

Does anyone have any information, theories or just plain guesses as to
what happened here?

I should add there are quite different shades - or possibly intensity
of colour also, but this seems to be unconnected with the degree of
flourescence although frankly I do not have enough copies of any of
them to come to any conclusion , with a minimum of 4 and maximum of 8
copies.

It seems to me that anyome with a large number of copies of this issue
has the opportunity of some meaningful reasearch here.

Any cerebral input gratefully received.

Malcolm




--
Gemaakt met Opera's revolutionaire e-mailprogramma:
http://www.opera.com/mail/
  #5  
Old May 23rd 08, 11:58 AM posted to rec.collecting.stamps.discuss
malcolm
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 232
Default France defs - 1955 allegory of "France"

Thank you all.

Dominique

An interesting theory. Perhaps I should try to obtain some copies on
paper and examine them before soaking to try to verify that. However
the stamps have mostly been soaked by me from "old" kiloware in water
from the same source ( house supply) so I am not entirely convinced. I
wish now that I had checked them first and from now on I will do that
on all new kiloware. Some of the stamps have an apparently identical
reaction while some differ. The problem I have with this theory is
that I have soaked thousands of "non-flourescent" stamps from other
countries and very few, if any, display the same characteristics -
some flourescent stamps have changed their character after particular
heavy soaking, but in none has the flourescence disappeared completely
- and even French stamps prior to the Iris issue first discussed have
not reacted in the same way. Something which has just occurred to me
is the possibility of contamination of flourescent material from other
stamps or envelope-paper, - but again I have seen very little evidence
of this elsewhere - and it would not explain the identical nature of
the samples, and the non-patchy appearance of the soaked stamp.

Perhaps a better example is the allegorical 0.40 cerise
"Republique" (Cheffer) of 1969 - no phosphor bands- of which I have a
large supply - many non-flourescence, but many identically brightly
flourescent ( with only one slightly flourescent - almost definitely a
changeling as you describe ).

Is the change a result of the water itself - or chemicals present in
the domestic water supply - and if the latter have you any idea of the
active ingredient ( or water temperature ? ) responsible? I can see me
using distilled water ( battery electrolyte or steam iron water ) in
future !! - and also strict segregation of stamps and different types
of backing paper to avoid contamination when soaking.

All

The problem is that the SG so-called specialised catalogues do not
discuss papers generally other than ones normally used in connection
with postal mechanisation.There are a number of exceptions -
Australian States and early New Zealand for example in the red
Commonwealth book - now no longer published - but I suspect this
information was acquired from a very early specialised study or
two( by collectors ).

Another problem is obtaining sufficient supplies of material to do a
proper "scientific" study. With definitives used over a long period
with periodic reprints you need to obtain a "spread" of material. By
definition charity collected kiloware tends to provide a "snapshot" of
the stamps isued in a short period of time - perhaps definitives used
within say a 2 month period - when what one wants is a large supply of
the same stamp from the date of issue to the date of withdrawal.

I am grateful for everyone's input, and perhaps the best answer is "
the jury is still undecided" I intend to make further investigations
as and when the opportunity presents itself, and if any further
evidence appears I will post again.

Malcolm


  #6  
Old May 23rd 08, 12:19 PM posted to rec.collecting.stamps.discuss
Rodney
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,814
Default France defs - 1955 allegory of "France"


"malcolm"

G'day Malcolm,
Rein posted some info some time ago,
just in case it may help, I'll attach it.
Rod.

dear Alfred,

with fluorescence under the UV-lamp there is a glow that disappears

immediately when you remove the UV-source, when there is a (short)

afterglow after having removed the UV you have phosphorescence.

Fluorescence quit often results from optical brightening agents in the

base paper itself or in the coating. The colour is usually bluish white.

Any other colour - yellow, green, red - indicates a special purpose for

the postal administration. You may find stamps that have a fluorescent

coating on a non-fluorescent base paper [most often] or the other way

around (occasionally, some Polish stamps around 1996).

Phosphorescence is hardly ever incidentally present, it usually serves a

postal purpose, the colour in the afterglow may be yellow, red

[Australia], green, orange [some Dutch], etc. Although the base paper may

have optical brightening agents in it, the coating usually has them too.

This results in the above colours being weaker or - in the case of yellow

- looking whitish. Used, soaken off stamps may acquire OBA's from the

enveloppe, but also may loose the OBA from the coating and then appear

more yellowish than in the case of mint stamps.

In the case of your Singaporian (Singaporese ?) stamps the bluish may

indicate just OBA in the coating, the yellow phosphorescence [but make

sure that there is a afterglow!]

in the late sixties or early seventies, some countries found themselves

having issued phosphorescent stamps. Malaysia as far as I can remember it

right. It turned out that the stamp printers had made a mistake! In 1985

the Dutch stamp printers used paper meant for Australia (1982 stamp

booklets, red phosphorescence) for the Dutch Churches stamp booklets apart

from the usual stamp paper with yellow phosphorescence. Both type of paper

had the Harrison and Sons prefix HS3 1630 ... Hence the confusion at Joh.

Enschede's printing works. I first confronted the managing director with

the occurence of both papers, and later on he had to admit to what went

wrong and how

groetjes, Rein

Op Mon, 26 Feb 2007 06:24:03 +0100 schreef Alfred Lee

:

I am trying to sort my Singapore Ships series definitives. upon having


my UV


light shone on them, some look very dull, whereas some looked yellow,


some


blue. So, can anyone tell me which is which?




Thanks in advance








--

Gemaakt met Opera's revolutionaire e-mailprogramma:

http://www.opera.com/mail/



On 28 Feb, 03:32, "Alfred Lee" wrote:

Ha you're right on that. I bought a short wave lighthouse UV lamp, battery


operated. And it isnt very helpful.


There's a knack for Machins and many other stamps with dim phosphors

including the Canadian Queen's head definitives:-

1) Go into totally dark room

2) Close eyes

3) Turn on lamp close to stamp

4) Count slowly to 10

5) Turn off lamp and open eyes immediately to catch a glimpse of the

bands before they fade.

But often you can see the bands on Machins by forgetting the lamp and

holding the stamp at the right angle in ordinary light.

Chris



Using an Australian bent,

the SG359 (1 pound George Bass and whaleboat)

has a cream and white paper variance.

Under UV light, the cream paper flouresces much more brightly

than the white paper issue.

Same with the 5/- cattle industry IIRC.









"Alfred Lee" wrote in message

...

I am trying to sort my Singapore Ships series definitives. upon having my


UV

light shone on them, some look very dull, whereas some looked yellow, some


blue. So, can anyone tell me which is which?




Thanks in advance




--


Alfred Lee







  #7  
Old May 23rd 08, 03:44 PM posted to rec.collecting.stamps.discuss
Rein
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 335
Default France defs - 1955 allegory of "France"

Rodney,

how are archiveing all this??

As I wrote the late fifties period is barely searched for paper varieties
under the UV-lamp.

I did so for the Netherlands in 1974-1975 and published it in the
Bulletins of the Stamp Booklets Studygroup (now called Postaumaat). It was
a very detailed list, but probably so detailed that most collectors didn't
bother to dig into it. They prefer to keep on the save side and only
recognize what kinds of paper have to do with postal mechanisation.

As to the French stamps, a decent study/research will need coin-datés or
the date imprint on the sheet-margins. The French do have them, but
probably won't be bothered. The Coq d'or or first French stamp printed on
German yellow fluorescent paper was discovered by a Dutch collector!


groetjes, Rein


Op Fri, 23 May 2008 13:19:31 +0200 schreef rodney
:


"malcolm"

G'day Malcolm,
Rein posted some info some time ago,
just in case it may help, I'll attach it.
Rod.

dear Alfred,

with fluorescence under the UV-lamp there is a glow that disappears

immediately when you remove the UV-source, when there is a (short)

afterglow after having removed the UV you have phosphorescence.

Fluorescence quit often results from optical brightening agents in the

base paper itself or in the coating. The colour is usually bluish white.

Any other colour - yellow, green, red - indicates a special purpose for

the postal administration. You may find stamps that have a fluorescent

coating on a non-fluorescent base paper [most often] or the other way

around (occasionally, some Polish stamps around 1996).

Phosphorescence is hardly ever incidentally present, it usually serves a

postal purpose, the colour in the afterglow may be yellow, red

[Australia], green, orange [some Dutch], etc. Although the base paper may

have optical brightening agents in it, the coating usually has them too.

This results in the above colours being weaker or - in the case of yellow

- looking whitish. Used, soaken off stamps may acquire OBA's from the

enveloppe, but also may loose the OBA from the coating and then appear

more yellowish than in the case of mint stamps.

In the case of your Singaporian (Singaporese ?) stamps the bluish may

indicate just OBA in the coating, the yellow phosphorescence [but make

sure that there is a afterglow!]

in the late sixties or early seventies, some countries found themselves

having issued phosphorescent stamps. Malaysia as far as I can remember it

right. It turned out that the stamp printers had made a mistake! In 1985

the Dutch stamp printers used paper meant for Australia (1982 stamp

booklets, red phosphorescence) for the Dutch Churches stamp booklets
apart

from the usual stamp paper with yellow phosphorescence. Both type of
paper

had the Harrison and Sons prefix HS3 1630 ... Hence the confusion at Joh.

Enschede's printing works. I first confronted the managing director with

the occurence of both papers, and later on he had to admit to what went

wrong and how

groetjes, Rein

Op Mon, 26 Feb 2007 06:24:03 +0100 schreef Alfred Lee

:

I am trying to sort my Singapore Ships series definitives. upon having


my UV


light shone on them, some look very dull, whereas some looked yellow,


some


blue. So, can anyone tell me which is which?




Thanks in advance











--
Gemaakt met Opera's revolutionaire e-mailprogramma:
http://www.opera.com/mail/
  #8  
Old May 23rd 08, 04:54 PM posted to rec.collecting.stamps.discuss
Rodney
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,814
Default France defs - 1955 allegory of "France"


"Rein"
how are archiveing all this??


I know you are tugging my leg,
but just in case you are curious ,
it is rather simple,
I know nothing about tagging and papers,
so one day when i get an UV lamp, I will need to
access the info.

I am an MSWorks afficianado, so I use the Word processor
and save as a file called "Fluorescence~Phosphoresence"
When a topic string is exhausted in RCSD say on fluorescence
I select the the entire topic post hiearchy in Outlook Express
Select "Message"
Select "combine and decode"
I copy the written text to the file,
the entire process takes just seconds

If you have the free "agent ransack" you can search text strings in
nanoseconds.
As the word processor file is endless
one may keep reams of info in one file.

It still beats me why catalogue publishers dont supply a CD rom
with their books. If you had basic text strings with corresponding
catalogue numbers, you could locate any stamp the world has known
in milliseconds.
It wouldn't defeat the catalogue, it would enhance the use.








  #9  
Old May 23rd 08, 08:01 PM posted to rec.collecting.stamps.discuss
Dominique Stéphan
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 38
Default France defs - 1955 allegory of "France"

malcolm a écrit:
Thank you all.

Dominique

An interesting theory. Perhaps I should try to obtain some copies on
paper and examine them before soaking to try to verify that. However
the stamps have mostly been soaked by me from "old" kiloware in water
from the same source ( house supply) so I am not entirely convinced. I
wish now that I had checked them first and from now on I will do that
on all new kiloware. Some of the stamps have an apparently identical
reaction while some differ. The problem I have with this theory is
that I have soaked thousands of "non-flourescent" stamps from other
countries and very few, if any, display the same characteristics -
some flourescent stamps have changed their character after particular
heavy soaking, but in none has the flourescence disappeared completely
- and even French stamps prior to the Iris issue first discussed have
not reacted in the same way. Something which has just occurred to me
is the possibility of contamination of flourescent material from other
stamps or envelope-paper, - but again I have seen very little evidence
of this elsewhere - and it would not explain the identical nature of
the samples, and the non-patchy appearance of the soaked stamp.

Perhaps a better example is the allegorical 0.40 cerise
"Republique" (Cheffer) of 1969 - no phosphor bands- of which I have a
large supply - many non-flourescence, but many identically brightly
flourescent ( with only one slightly flourescent - almost definitely a
changeling as you describe ).

Is the change a result of the water itself - or chemicals present in
the domestic water supply - and if the latter have you any idea of the
active ingredient ( or water temperature ? ) responsible? I can see me
using distilled water ( battery electrolyte or steam iron water ) in
future !! - and also strict segregation of stamps and different types
of backing paper to avoid contamination when soaking.

All

The problem is that the SG so-called specialised catalogues do not
discuss papers generally other than ones normally used in connection
with postal mechanisation.There are a number of exceptions -
Australian States and early New Zealand for example in the red
Commonwealth book - now no longer published - but I suspect this
information was acquired from a very early specialised study or
two( by collectors ).

Another problem is obtaining sufficient supplies of material to do a
proper "scientific" study. With definitives used over a long period
with periodic reprints you need to obtain a "spread" of material. By
definition charity collected kiloware tends to provide a "snapshot" of
the stamps isued in a short period of time - perhaps definitives used
within say a 2 month period - when what one wants is a large supply of
the same stamp from the date of issue to the date of withdrawal.

I am grateful for everyone's input, and perhaps the best answer is "
the jury is still undecided" I intend to make further investigations
as and when the opportunity presents itself, and if any further
evidence appears I will post again.


Hi,

I always find interesting other "point de vue" about French
collection than French collectors :-)

The real question is : why bother ?

There is basically 2 types of papers :
- those what were a voluntary modification (aka the Coq by Decaris
fluorescent).
- those what are variation from the paper supplier.

Unless the variation is quite evident (for instance, Chalky
Paper on Liberty French by Delacroix stamps, although it was
likely a test for commemorative stamps), small variations
aren't so important.

I do have experience with soaked stamp (not so much) that
appears more fluorescent than the on paper stamps. So this
kind of study is more done with mint stamps, especially
"coins datés" (I think it's somewhat a French specialty,
definitive stamps don't have a plate number, although
it can sometimes be determined by margin marks, but
they do have a print date).

Modern French stamps require a non fluorescent paper, so
that overprinted phosphorescent bars are more easily seen by
the machines (and because fluorescent, whiter than white paper,
is the standard, so falsifications can be recognized from true stamps).



--
Cordialement
Dominique Stéphan
http://www.blog-philatelie.com/ Mon blog philatélie
http://www.timbre-poste.com/ Timbres-poste d'usage courant
http://amisdemarianne.free.fr/ Cercle des Amis de Marianne
  #10  
Old May 23rd 08, 11:50 PM posted to rec.collecting.stamps.discuss
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,049
Default France defs - 1955 allegory of "France"

On Fri, 23 May 2008 23:54:48 +0800, "rodney"
wrote:


"Rein"
how are archiveing all this??


I know you are tugging my leg,
but just in case you are curious ,
it is rather simple,
I know nothing about tagging and papers,
so one day when i get an UV lamp, I will need to
access the info.

I am an MSWorks afficianado, so I use the Word processor
and save as a file called "Fluorescence~Phosphoresence"
When a topic string is exhausted in RCSD say on fluorescence
I select the the entire topic post hiearchy in Outlook Express
Select "Message"
Select "combine and decode"
I copy the written text to the file,
the entire process takes just seconds

If you have the free "agent ransack" you can search text strings in
nanoseconds.
As the word processor file is endless
one may keep reams of info in one file.

It still beats me why catalogue publishers dont supply a CD rom
with their books. If you had basic text strings with corresponding
catalogue numbers, you could locate any stamp the world has known
in milliseconds.
It wouldn't defeat the catalogue, it would enhance the use.


I agree about the enhance, but profits may disappear. The pirating of
CDs is quite easy these days. Why buy the paper catalog when you can
have it in digital form and print it when you want to?

Of course, there are some of us who have bought their catalogs. I
bought a few Scott before 2000 but did purchase the 2000 set new. I
have purchased several - 30-40? other catalogs / reference books since
then.

For instance, the 1915 Forbin revenue catalog was free, on-line for a
while. There are others of its ilk out there. I have an older U.S.
Scott on CD - more of a curiosity item than anything else. Further, I
got it almost / maybe? free from a stamp dealer I work for.

That all said, I have partaken of some digital catalogs when found and
most have permission tags with them. :^)

Would I bootleg one? Not one that is still publishing or carrying on
as a business. Closed, defunct or no longer printing? Maybe.
 




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