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France defs - 1955 allegory of "France"
I have several copies of the 15f red, 20f blue, and 25f red of this
issue. As part of an ongoing investigation into all my world "common" definitives I have eaxamined these under a lw u/v lamp. To my surpsise I find all 3 on a paper with no reaction and also all 3 with various intensities of reaction from a quite dull to a quite but not intense bright - the reactions being on copies mostly postmarked between 1957 and 1959 ( where a date can be identified ). There is no mention of this variation in SG specialised France so I surmise that any change in paper-coating is not in connection with postal mechanisation, but purely a formulation which flouresces "by accident". Does anyone have any information, theories or just plain guesses as to what happened here? I should add there are quite different shades - or possibly intensity of colour also, but this seems to be unconnected with the degree of flourescence although frankly I do not have enough copies of any of them to come to any conclusion , with a minimum of 4 and maximum of 8 copies. It seems to me that anyome with a large number of copies of this issue has the opportunity of some meaningful reasearch here. Any cerebral input gratefully received. Malcolm |
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#2
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France defs - 1955 allegory of "France"
Hello Malcolm,
I am not at all a specialist of this stamp that we call in France "Marianne de Muller" (Muller is the designer of the stamp). It was issued in panes of 100 stamps, strips for "Roulettes" and booklets of 20 or 8 stamps. This may explain differences in papers that you noticed. -- All the best, Pierre Courtiade |
#3
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France defs - 1955 allegory of "France"
malcolm a écrit:
I have several copies of the 15f red, 20f blue, and 25f red of this issue. As part of an ongoing investigation into all my world "common" definitives I have eaxamined these under a lw u/v lamp. To my surpsise I find all 3 on a paper with no reaction and also all 3 with various intensities of reaction from a quite dull to a quite but not intense bright - the reactions being on copies mostly postmarked between 1957 and 1959 ( where a date can be identified ). There is no mention of this variation in SG specialised France so I surmise that any change in paper-coating is not in connection with postal mechanisation, but purely a formulation which flouresces "by accident". Does anyone have any information, theories or just plain guesses as to what happened here? I should add there are quite different shades - or possibly intensity of colour also, but this seems to be unconnected with the degree of flourescence although frankly I do not have enough copies of any of them to come to any conclusion , with a minimum of 4 and maximum of 8 copies. It seems to me that anyome with a large number of copies of this issue has the opportunity of some meaningful reasearch here. Any cerebral input gratefully received. Hi, Papers aren't studied that much in France. The only special fluorescent paper variety is the 0,25 Coq by Decaris "gold yellow". On used copies, the water used may change the paper reaction, it's what has likely happened. -- Cordialement Dominique Stéphan http://www.blog-philatelie.com/ Mon blog philatélie http://www.timbre-poste.com/ Timbres-poste d'usage courant http://amisdemarianne.free.fr/ Cercle des Amis de Marianne |
#4
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France defs - 1955 allegory of "France"
Malcolm,
not just in France but in most countries during the late fifties postage stamps got printed on paper that contained a varying amount of optical brightening agents just to give the stamps a "whiter than white" appearance. Philatelists didn't noticed this until the postal administrrations started using coloured luminescent substances in order to detect the stamps on cover (o.e. for postal mechanisation). In the Netherlands the definitives als had the OBA's added in the 1957+ period and it did get unnoticed until 1974 by philatelists. groetjes, Rein Op Wed, 21 May 2008 22:15:27 +0200 schreef malcolm : I have several copies of the 15f red, 20f blue, and 25f red of this issue. As part of an ongoing investigation into all my world "common" definitives I have eaxamined these under a lw u/v lamp. To my surpsise I find all 3 on a paper with no reaction and also all 3 with various intensities of reaction from a quite dull to a quite but not intense bright - the reactions being on copies mostly postmarked between 1957 and 1959 ( where a date can be identified ). There is no mention of this variation in SG specialised France so I surmise that any change in paper-coating is not in connection with postal mechanisation, but purely a formulation which flouresces "by accident". Does anyone have any information, theories or just plain guesses as to what happened here? I should add there are quite different shades - or possibly intensity of colour also, but this seems to be unconnected with the degree of flourescence although frankly I do not have enough copies of any of them to come to any conclusion , with a minimum of 4 and maximum of 8 copies. It seems to me that anyome with a large number of copies of this issue has the opportunity of some meaningful reasearch here. Any cerebral input gratefully received. Malcolm -- Gemaakt met Opera's revolutionaire e-mailprogramma: http://www.opera.com/mail/ |
#5
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France defs - 1955 allegory of "France"
Thank you all.
Dominique An interesting theory. Perhaps I should try to obtain some copies on paper and examine them before soaking to try to verify that. However the stamps have mostly been soaked by me from "old" kiloware in water from the same source ( house supply) so I am not entirely convinced. I wish now that I had checked them first and from now on I will do that on all new kiloware. Some of the stamps have an apparently identical reaction while some differ. The problem I have with this theory is that I have soaked thousands of "non-flourescent" stamps from other countries and very few, if any, display the same characteristics - some flourescent stamps have changed their character after particular heavy soaking, but in none has the flourescence disappeared completely - and even French stamps prior to the Iris issue first discussed have not reacted in the same way. Something which has just occurred to me is the possibility of contamination of flourescent material from other stamps or envelope-paper, - but again I have seen very little evidence of this elsewhere - and it would not explain the identical nature of the samples, and the non-patchy appearance of the soaked stamp. Perhaps a better example is the allegorical 0.40 cerise "Republique" (Cheffer) of 1969 - no phosphor bands- of which I have a large supply - many non-flourescence, but many identically brightly flourescent ( with only one slightly flourescent - almost definitely a changeling as you describe ). Is the change a result of the water itself - or chemicals present in the domestic water supply - and if the latter have you any idea of the active ingredient ( or water temperature ? ) responsible? I can see me using distilled water ( battery electrolyte or steam iron water ) in future !! - and also strict segregation of stamps and different types of backing paper to avoid contamination when soaking. All The problem is that the SG so-called specialised catalogues do not discuss papers generally other than ones normally used in connection with postal mechanisation.There are a number of exceptions - Australian States and early New Zealand for example in the red Commonwealth book - now no longer published - but I suspect this information was acquired from a very early specialised study or two( by collectors ). Another problem is obtaining sufficient supplies of material to do a proper "scientific" study. With definitives used over a long period with periodic reprints you need to obtain a "spread" of material. By definition charity collected kiloware tends to provide a "snapshot" of the stamps isued in a short period of time - perhaps definitives used within say a 2 month period - when what one wants is a large supply of the same stamp from the date of issue to the date of withdrawal. I am grateful for everyone's input, and perhaps the best answer is " the jury is still undecided" I intend to make further investigations as and when the opportunity presents itself, and if any further evidence appears I will post again. Malcolm |
#6
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France defs - 1955 allegory of "France"
"malcolm" G'day Malcolm, Rein posted some info some time ago, just in case it may help, I'll attach it. Rod. dear Alfred, with fluorescence under the UV-lamp there is a glow that disappears immediately when you remove the UV-source, when there is a (short) afterglow after having removed the UV you have phosphorescence. Fluorescence quit often results from optical brightening agents in the base paper itself or in the coating. The colour is usually bluish white. Any other colour - yellow, green, red - indicates a special purpose for the postal administration. You may find stamps that have a fluorescent coating on a non-fluorescent base paper [most often] or the other way around (occasionally, some Polish stamps around 1996). Phosphorescence is hardly ever incidentally present, it usually serves a postal purpose, the colour in the afterglow may be yellow, red [Australia], green, orange [some Dutch], etc. Although the base paper may have optical brightening agents in it, the coating usually has them too. This results in the above colours being weaker or - in the case of yellow - looking whitish. Used, soaken off stamps may acquire OBA's from the enveloppe, but also may loose the OBA from the coating and then appear more yellowish than in the case of mint stamps. In the case of your Singaporian (Singaporese ?) stamps the bluish may indicate just OBA in the coating, the yellow phosphorescence [but make sure that there is a afterglow!] in the late sixties or early seventies, some countries found themselves having issued phosphorescent stamps. Malaysia as far as I can remember it right. It turned out that the stamp printers had made a mistake! In 1985 the Dutch stamp printers used paper meant for Australia (1982 stamp booklets, red phosphorescence) for the Dutch Churches stamp booklets apart from the usual stamp paper with yellow phosphorescence. Both type of paper had the Harrison and Sons prefix HS3 1630 ... Hence the confusion at Joh. Enschede's printing works. I first confronted the managing director with the occurence of both papers, and later on he had to admit to what went wrong and how groetjes, Rein Op Mon, 26 Feb 2007 06:24:03 +0100 schreef Alfred Lee : I am trying to sort my Singapore Ships series definitives. upon having my UV light shone on them, some look very dull, whereas some looked yellow, some blue. So, can anyone tell me which is which? Thanks in advance -- Gemaakt met Opera's revolutionaire e-mailprogramma: http://www.opera.com/mail/ On 28 Feb, 03:32, "Alfred Lee" wrote: Ha you're right on that. I bought a short wave lighthouse UV lamp, battery operated. And it isnt very helpful. There's a knack for Machins and many other stamps with dim phosphors including the Canadian Queen's head definitives:- 1) Go into totally dark room 2) Close eyes 3) Turn on lamp close to stamp 4) Count slowly to 10 5) Turn off lamp and open eyes immediately to catch a glimpse of the bands before they fade. But often you can see the bands on Machins by forgetting the lamp and holding the stamp at the right angle in ordinary light. Chris Using an Australian bent, the SG359 (1 pound George Bass and whaleboat) has a cream and white paper variance. Under UV light, the cream paper flouresces much more brightly than the white paper issue. Same with the 5/- cattle industry IIRC. "Alfred Lee" wrote in message ... I am trying to sort my Singapore Ships series definitives. upon having my UV light shone on them, some look very dull, whereas some looked yellow, some blue. So, can anyone tell me which is which? Thanks in advance -- Alfred Lee |
#7
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France defs - 1955 allegory of "France"
Rodney,
how are archiveing all this?? As I wrote the late fifties period is barely searched for paper varieties under the UV-lamp. I did so for the Netherlands in 1974-1975 and published it in the Bulletins of the Stamp Booklets Studygroup (now called Postaumaat). It was a very detailed list, but probably so detailed that most collectors didn't bother to dig into it. They prefer to keep on the save side and only recognize what kinds of paper have to do with postal mechanisation. As to the French stamps, a decent study/research will need coin-datés or the date imprint on the sheet-margins. The French do have them, but probably won't be bothered. The Coq d'or or first French stamp printed on German yellow fluorescent paper was discovered by a Dutch collector! groetjes, Rein Op Fri, 23 May 2008 13:19:31 +0200 schreef rodney : "malcolm" G'day Malcolm, Rein posted some info some time ago, just in case it may help, I'll attach it. Rod. dear Alfred, with fluorescence under the UV-lamp there is a glow that disappears immediately when you remove the UV-source, when there is a (short) afterglow after having removed the UV you have phosphorescence. Fluorescence quit often results from optical brightening agents in the base paper itself or in the coating. The colour is usually bluish white. Any other colour - yellow, green, red - indicates a special purpose for the postal administration. You may find stamps that have a fluorescent coating on a non-fluorescent base paper [most often] or the other way around (occasionally, some Polish stamps around 1996). Phosphorescence is hardly ever incidentally present, it usually serves a postal purpose, the colour in the afterglow may be yellow, red [Australia], green, orange [some Dutch], etc. Although the base paper may have optical brightening agents in it, the coating usually has them too. This results in the above colours being weaker or - in the case of yellow - looking whitish. Used, soaken off stamps may acquire OBA's from the enveloppe, but also may loose the OBA from the coating and then appear more yellowish than in the case of mint stamps. In the case of your Singaporian (Singaporese ?) stamps the bluish may indicate just OBA in the coating, the yellow phosphorescence [but make sure that there is a afterglow!] in the late sixties or early seventies, some countries found themselves having issued phosphorescent stamps. Malaysia as far as I can remember it right. It turned out that the stamp printers had made a mistake! In 1985 the Dutch stamp printers used paper meant for Australia (1982 stamp booklets, red phosphorescence) for the Dutch Churches stamp booklets apart from the usual stamp paper with yellow phosphorescence. Both type of paper had the Harrison and Sons prefix HS3 1630 ... Hence the confusion at Joh. Enschede's printing works. I first confronted the managing director with the occurence of both papers, and later on he had to admit to what went wrong and how groetjes, Rein Op Mon, 26 Feb 2007 06:24:03 +0100 schreef Alfred Lee : I am trying to sort my Singapore Ships series definitives. upon having my UV light shone on them, some look very dull, whereas some looked yellow, some blue. So, can anyone tell me which is which? Thanks in advance -- Gemaakt met Opera's revolutionaire e-mailprogramma: http://www.opera.com/mail/ |
#8
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France defs - 1955 allegory of "France"
"Rein" how are archiveing all this?? I know you are tugging my leg, but just in case you are curious , it is rather simple, I know nothing about tagging and papers, so one day when i get an UV lamp, I will need to access the info. I am an MSWorks afficianado, so I use the Word processor and save as a file called "Fluorescence~Phosphoresence" When a topic string is exhausted in RCSD say on fluorescence I select the the entire topic post hiearchy in Outlook Express Select "Message" Select "combine and decode" I copy the written text to the file, the entire process takes just seconds If you have the free "agent ransack" you can search text strings in nanoseconds. As the word processor file is endless one may keep reams of info in one file. It still beats me why catalogue publishers dont supply a CD rom with their books. If you had basic text strings with corresponding catalogue numbers, you could locate any stamp the world has known in milliseconds. It wouldn't defeat the catalogue, it would enhance the use. |
#9
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France defs - 1955 allegory of "France"
malcolm a écrit:
Thank you all. Dominique An interesting theory. Perhaps I should try to obtain some copies on paper and examine them before soaking to try to verify that. However the stamps have mostly been soaked by me from "old" kiloware in water from the same source ( house supply) so I am not entirely convinced. I wish now that I had checked them first and from now on I will do that on all new kiloware. Some of the stamps have an apparently identical reaction while some differ. The problem I have with this theory is that I have soaked thousands of "non-flourescent" stamps from other countries and very few, if any, display the same characteristics - some flourescent stamps have changed their character after particular heavy soaking, but in none has the flourescence disappeared completely - and even French stamps prior to the Iris issue first discussed have not reacted in the same way. Something which has just occurred to me is the possibility of contamination of flourescent material from other stamps or envelope-paper, - but again I have seen very little evidence of this elsewhere - and it would not explain the identical nature of the samples, and the non-patchy appearance of the soaked stamp. Perhaps a better example is the allegorical 0.40 cerise "Republique" (Cheffer) of 1969 - no phosphor bands- of which I have a large supply - many non-flourescence, but many identically brightly flourescent ( with only one slightly flourescent - almost definitely a changeling as you describe ). Is the change a result of the water itself - or chemicals present in the domestic water supply - and if the latter have you any idea of the active ingredient ( or water temperature ? ) responsible? I can see me using distilled water ( battery electrolyte or steam iron water ) in future !! - and also strict segregation of stamps and different types of backing paper to avoid contamination when soaking. All The problem is that the SG so-called specialised catalogues do not discuss papers generally other than ones normally used in connection with postal mechanisation.There are a number of exceptions - Australian States and early New Zealand for example in the red Commonwealth book - now no longer published - but I suspect this information was acquired from a very early specialised study or two( by collectors ). Another problem is obtaining sufficient supplies of material to do a proper "scientific" study. With definitives used over a long period with periodic reprints you need to obtain a "spread" of material. By definition charity collected kiloware tends to provide a "snapshot" of the stamps isued in a short period of time - perhaps definitives used within say a 2 month period - when what one wants is a large supply of the same stamp from the date of issue to the date of withdrawal. I am grateful for everyone's input, and perhaps the best answer is " the jury is still undecided" I intend to make further investigations as and when the opportunity presents itself, and if any further evidence appears I will post again. Hi, I always find interesting other "point de vue" about French collection than French collectors :-) The real question is : why bother ? There is basically 2 types of papers : - those what were a voluntary modification (aka the Coq by Decaris fluorescent). - those what are variation from the paper supplier. Unless the variation is quite evident (for instance, Chalky Paper on Liberty French by Delacroix stamps, although it was likely a test for commemorative stamps), small variations aren't so important. I do have experience with soaked stamp (not so much) that appears more fluorescent than the on paper stamps. So this kind of study is more done with mint stamps, especially "coins datés" (I think it's somewhat a French specialty, definitive stamps don't have a plate number, although it can sometimes be determined by margin marks, but they do have a print date). Modern French stamps require a non fluorescent paper, so that overprinted phosphorescent bars are more easily seen by the machines (and because fluorescent, whiter than white paper, is the standard, so falsifications can be recognized from true stamps). -- Cordialement Dominique Stéphan http://www.blog-philatelie.com/ Mon blog philatélie http://www.timbre-poste.com/ Timbres-poste d'usage courant http://amisdemarianne.free.fr/ Cercle des Amis de Marianne |
#10
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France defs - 1955 allegory of "France"
On Fri, 23 May 2008 23:54:48 +0800, "rodney"
wrote: "Rein" how are archiveing all this?? I know you are tugging my leg, but just in case you are curious , it is rather simple, I know nothing about tagging and papers, so one day when i get an UV lamp, I will need to access the info. I am an MSWorks afficianado, so I use the Word processor and save as a file called "Fluorescence~Phosphoresence" When a topic string is exhausted in RCSD say on fluorescence I select the the entire topic post hiearchy in Outlook Express Select "Message" Select "combine and decode" I copy the written text to the file, the entire process takes just seconds If you have the free "agent ransack" you can search text strings in nanoseconds. As the word processor file is endless one may keep reams of info in one file. It still beats me why catalogue publishers dont supply a CD rom with their books. If you had basic text strings with corresponding catalogue numbers, you could locate any stamp the world has known in milliseconds. It wouldn't defeat the catalogue, it would enhance the use. I agree about the enhance, but profits may disappear. The pirating of CDs is quite easy these days. Why buy the paper catalog when you can have it in digital form and print it when you want to? Of course, there are some of us who have bought their catalogs. I bought a few Scott before 2000 but did purchase the 2000 set new. I have purchased several - 30-40? other catalogs / reference books since then. For instance, the 1915 Forbin revenue catalog was free, on-line for a while. There are others of its ilk out there. I have an older U.S. Scott on CD - more of a curiosity item than anything else. Further, I got it almost / maybe? free from a stamp dealer I work for. That all said, I have partaken of some digital catalogs when found and most have permission tags with them. :^) Would I bootleg one? Not one that is still publishing or carrying on as a business. Closed, defunct or no longer printing? Maybe. |
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