I Really HATE Lawyers (On Topic, Really!)

http://www.jag-lawfirm.com/rare_coin_fraud.html

"We'll file a class-action lawsuit for you, get a few million for
ourselves, and give you a nice, shiny nickel."

See subject line for closing comment.

Jerry
Sorry, Sam.

Jerry Dennis wrote:
http://www.jag-lawfirm.com/rare_coin_fraud.html

"We'll file a class-action lawsuit for you, get a few million for
ourselves, and give you a nice, shiny nickel."

Are you saying that the law firm has ripped people off? Are you saying
that the plaintiffs they represent do not get any recompense if the firm
wins a law suit? Is there data you forgot to post?

See subject line for closing comment.

Jerry
Sorry, Sam.



--

JMark

On Tue, 10 Jul 2007 06:04:58 -0700, Jerry Dennis
wrote:

http://www.jag-lawfirm.com/rare_coin_fraud.html

"We'll file a class-action lawsuit for you, get a few million for
ourselves, and give you a nice, shiny nickel."

See subject line for closing comment.


There's the concept of "net benefit" in which some people lose but the
overall result is that there is a benefit. In this case, while the
plaintiffs might receive a small portion of the proceeds, there is a
net benefit because the fraudsters are punished.

Without the incentive of "a few million", no one would attempt to
punish the fraudsters.

The plaintiffs, or potential plaintiffs, have already lost. Anything
they recover is a benefit to them.

I'm not a lawyer, by the way.

--


Tony Cooper
Orlando, FL

"We'll file a class-action lawsuit for you, get a few million for
ourselves, and give you a nice, shiny nickel."

Disclaimer: I haven't practiced law for over 20 years, and never
did class action work. Nor have I ever been a plaintiff, defendant,
nor represented anyone in a coin-related case.

The abuses you describe occur, but I know nothing about this firm nor
the arrangements with its clients.

The abuses described on their webpage also occur. Not all instances
of abuse warrant legal action, but even national financial papers have
reported on instances of dealers freely admitting they gouge people
on coins. And even most libertarians acknowledge the role of
governmental action to fight fraud.

To say "I hate lawyers" because of class action abuses makes as little
sense as saying "I hate coin dealers" because a few high-profile
dealers misrepresent their coins.

To be realistic, the people getting the nice shiny nickel are getting
something for nothing. Each one had the option of opting out of the
class and pursuing recovery on their own. So-called lead plaintiffs
(the ones law firms recruit) usually do considerably better.

So how best to ensure fair dealing? "Caveat Emptor" is a viable
solution, but I'm not sure it's the best thing for either collectors
_or_ most dealers. If in order not to get ripped off you need to
be an expert, and in order to be an expert you need to get ripped
off a few times, then the market for coins is going to be much
smaller than it would be otherwise. From reading this and other
forums, I can tell just how much reputable dealers love competing
against the "Photograde and our best interpretation of grading
standards based on umpteen years of retail experience" crowd.

Self-policing isn't working and hasn't worked in the 40+ years I've
been collecting. One need not even look at, say, COINage or eBay
to prove it -- this forum suffices nicely. Yes, occasionally a coin
dealer will get expelled from the ANA or PNG, but usually that means
they just switch to a different group of marks.

Nor do I see a solution in the criminal law system. No doubt there
are a very few brokers, traders, dealers and collectors who deserve
some time in a cage. While that might feel good for the rest of
us, it does very little for the victims. 2007 current events show
once again that criminal prosecution is highly political. While
"scamming widows" occasionally makes the political radar screen,
enforcement is sporadic enough to give crooks plenty of time to
setup, run their scam and vanish. Finally, criminal law is helpless
when it comes to dealing with simple contractual disputes nor
determining damages for breach.

So if civil litigation (and therefore civil litigators) aren't the
answer, what do y'all suggest?

--
Michael Benveniste --
Spam and UCE professionally evaluated for $419. Use this email
address only to submit mail for evaluation.

On Jul 10, 9:04?am, Jerry Dennis wrote:
http://www.jag-lawfirm.com/rare_coin_fraud.html

"We'll file a class-action lawsuit for you, get a few million for
ourselves, and give you a nice, shiny nickel."

See subject line for closing comment.

Jerry
Sorry, Sam.

Okay, I guess I need to elaborate some.

I was a party in a recent class-action lawsuit. TracFone (a pay-in-
advance cell phone provider) allegedly charged roaming charges to some
of its customers. A woman complained about it and accused TracFone of
not dealing with her fairly. What ultimately happened was a class-
action suit was filed against TracFone which, after all of the
nonsense, got the woman involved $7,000 and each of the class-action
parties involved (estimated at 54,000) 20 minutes of free airtime
(worth about five Sacs) if you still were with TracFone (I got a
better deal with Verizon Wireless). No monetary compensation was
offered nor authorized. The lawyers, on the other hand, were awarded
$1,708,595.50. All of the justification provided in the settlement is
pure legalese (doesn't anybody in this country speak English
anymore?):

http://www.wagnercase.com/Documents/...nd%20Order.pdf

How many times on television have you seen, "Have you or a loved one
suffered injury due to sticking a nail up your nose or in your eye?
If so, you may be entitled to significant compensation." Why?
Because some people were trying to win the Darwin Award?

To get back to the original link I provided, this whole issue seems
like some law firm decided they could spin the Cable Shopping
Network's gold- and platinum-plated State Quarters infomercial into a
class-action lawsuit. My only question is, "Who put the gun to the
idiots' heads and forced them to buy this junk?" These class-action
lawyers are absolving people for being stupid, and the lawyers are the
ones reaping the benefits.

We all know "Caveat Emptor" applies. But when you're looking to "get
rich quick" and get spanked instead, you deserve it.

Finally, to any RCC-ers who are or were attorneys, I meant nothing
personal. I probably should have included "Class-Action" in the
subject. But after reading my own case linked above, I'm convinced
that, in class-action cases, justice doesn't matter.

Jerry
I'm a big boy and ready take all the hits and criticism.

On Tue, 10 Jul 2007 14:53:02 -0700, Jerry Dennis
wrote:

On Jul 10, 9:04?am, Jerry Dennis wrote:
http://www.jag-lawfirm.com/rare_coin_fraud.html

"We'll file a class-action lawsuit for you, get a few million for
ourselves, and give you a nice, shiny nickel."

See subject line for closing comment.

Jerry
Sorry, Sam.

Okay, I guess I need to elaborate some.

I was a party in a recent class-action lawsuit. TracFone (a pay-in-
advance cell phone provider) allegedly charged roaming charges to some
of its customers. A woman complained about it and accused TracFone of
not dealing with her fairly. What ultimately happened was a class-
action suit was filed against TracFone which, after all of the
nonsense, got the woman involved $7,000 and each of the class-action
parties involved (estimated at 54,000) 20 minutes of free airtime
(worth about five Sacs) if you still were with TracFone (I got a
better deal with Verizon Wireless). No monetary compensation was
offered nor authorized. The lawyers, on the other hand, were awarded
$1,708,595.50.

It would be my guess that the lawyers were awarded compensation for
their time in pursuing the case. Granted they were paid by their
billable hour rate, which may be several hundred dollars per hour, but
time and knowledge is what a lawyer has to sell. The typical class
action suit takes years, thousands of hours, and other costs. Had the
lawyers not spent their time on this case, they would have had those
hours available for other cases.

Because of the success of this suit, TracFone will not longer rip off
their customers the way they had been doing. Other companies , seeing
the results of the case, will not try to do what TracFone was doing.
TracFone incurred significant costs in defending the case, so they
were penalized.

All of the justification provided in the settlement is
pure legalese (doesn't anybody in this country speak English
anymore?):

If a lawyer overheard two coin dealers in a conversation about coins,
he may very well wonder if English was being spoken. All professions
have their own jargon.


--


Tony Cooper
Orlando, FL

On Tue, 10 Jul 2007 20:00:43 -0400, tony cooper wrote:

It would be my guess that the lawyers were awarded compensation for
their time in pursuing the case. Granted they were paid by their
billable hour rate, which may be several hundred dollars per hour, but
time and knowledge is what a lawyer has to sell. The typical class
action suit takes years, thousands of hours, and other costs. Had the
lawyers not spent their time on this case, they would have had those
hours available for other cases.

Actually, the lawyers were awarded their loadstar amount (the going
rate for the type of award) multipled by 3 as award for taking a
risky case on contingency. Litigation is noted as taking place
over 9 months.

I could digress into a long discussion about the merits of both the
loadstar method, multipliers, and the actual multiplier used here, but
that's a _little_ much for a coin group, no? Suffice it to say that
plaintiff's attorneys had a strong incentive to get the best award they
could negotiate.

The defendants actually got off a bit lightly. They were willing
to cough up 2 million in fees, but the judge knocked down the
multiplier from the originally requested number.

As for that settlement, it was anticipated by both parties and the
judge that something like 4.4 million people would claim their
settlement, but with a month to go only 54,000 claims had been
filed. The court also found the value of the minutes were about
$11, although the cost to TracFone would of course be much less.
I'd be curious to know how Jerry thinks he was overcharged.

As is typical in such a case, any member of the class had both
a right to opt out and protest the settlement. Fewer than 400
opted out and fewer than 50 actually protested.

No, I don't take this sort of post personally. There are bad
lawyers and bad laws out there. While people may disagree on which
laws are bad, public discourse is the best way to start trying to
fix them.

--
Michael Benveniste --
Spam and UCE professionally evaluated for $419. Use this email
address only to submit mail for evaluation.

On Jul 11, 12:49?am, Michael Benveniste
wrote:
On Tue, 10 Jul 2007 20:00:43 -0400, tony cooper wrote:
It would be my guess that the lawyers were awarded compensation for
their time in pursuing the case. Granted they were paid by their
billable hour rate, which may be several hundred dollars per hour, but
time and knowledge is what a lawyer has to sell. The typical class
action suit takes years, thousands of hours, and other costs. Had the
lawyers not spent their time on this case, they would have had those
hours available for other cases.

I would disagree on this point. As an example, here in NY State,
attorney James Sokolov is always promoting his class-action cases on
television, looking for more members. He and his firm seem to exist
solely for multi-million dollar class-action suits.

Actually, the lawyers were awarded their loadstar amount (the going
rate for the type of award) multipled by 3 as award for taking a
risky case on contingency. Litigation is noted as taking place
over 9 months.

I could digress into a long discussion about the merits of both the
loadstar method, multipliers, and the actual multiplier used here, but
that's a _little_ much for a coin group, no? Suffice it to say that
plaintiff's attorneys had a strong incentive to get the best award they
could negotiate.

I agree. In spite of my own personal feelings, I would hope every
businessman would do the best they can for their customers. After
all, that's what they get paid for.

The defendants actually got off a bit lightly. They were willing
to cough up 2 million in fees, but the judge knocked down the
multiplier from the originally requested number.

As for that settlement, it was anticipated by both parties and the
judge that something like 4.4 million people would claim their
settlement, but with a month to go only 54,000 claims had been
filed. The court also found the value of the minutes were about
$11, although the cost to TracFone would of course be much less.
I'd be curious to know how Jerry thinks he was overcharged.

The court, as near as I can figure it, averaged the value of the
minutes for TracFone's various plans. My own plan (25 cents per
minute) made my personal stake $5. The roaming charge is an
additional minute (meaning 50 cents per minute). The only times I was
ever charged roaming charges were those times I was out of my area
where their service wasn't available and they needed to use another
carrier's signal. I never felt I was overcharged.

As is typical in such a case, any member of the class had both
a right to opt out and protest the settlement. Fewer than 400
opted out and fewer than 50 actually protested.

Count me as one of the 400 who opted out and one of the 50 who
protested. The objections mentioned on pages 6 thru 8 of the
settlement were all raised by my objection letter, which surprised me
as I fully expected would have been "so noted" and nothing more said.

No, I don't take this sort of post personally. There are bad
lawyers and bad laws out there. While people may disagree on which
laws are bad, public discourse is the best way to start trying to
fix them.

--
Michael Benveniste --
Spam and UCE professionally evaluated for $419. Use this email
address only to submit mail for evaluation.

On Jul 10, 8:00?pm, tony cooper wrote,
in part:
If a lawyer overheard two coin dealers in a conversation about coins,
he may very well wonder if English was being spoken. All professions
have their own jargon.

I couldn't agree more. But when we dealers and collectors are
discussing or explaining some numismatic points with someone who isn't
in the hobby, don't we use the more common terms so they can
understand us better (e.g., "heads side" in lieu of "obverse", "penny"
instead of "cent", and "rare" instead of "key-date").

Since the law has more of an impact on people's lives, you'd think
more people would want to know what it all means.

Jerry
Trying not to bloviate. :-)

On Wed, 11 Jul 2007 03:41:54 -0700, Jerry Dennis
wrote:

On Jul 11, 12:49?am, Michael Benveniste
wrote:
On Tue, 10 Jul 2007 20:00:43 -0400, tony cooper wrote:
It would be my guess that the lawyers were awarded compensation for
their time in pursuing the case. Granted they were paid by their
billable hour rate, which may be several hundred dollars per hour, but
time and knowledge is what a lawyer has to sell. The typical class
action suit takes years, thousands of hours, and other costs. Had the
lawyers not spent their time on this case, they would have had those
hours available for other cases.

I would disagree on this point. As an example, here in NY State,
attorney James Sokolov is always promoting his class-action cases on
television, looking for more members. He and his firm seem to exist
solely for multi-million dollar class-action suits.

I'm not sure what is objectionable about that. I'm old-school enough
to feel that lawyers buying TV time to hawk their services like they
are selling salad shooters ("But wait, contact us now and we'll
include a set of Ginsu knives absolutely free!") is despicable, but I
don't see a problem in a lawyer specializing in a particular type of
practice.

As I've said, the class action suit does penalize an entity that is
doing wrong. It allows a case to be brought forward when no single
individual has suffered a significant enough, or provable enough,
loss to warrant and individual suit. There's a place for them.

I was party to a class action suit where a company manufactured siding
that was defective. My builder chose the siding brand. I received
about $1,900 in compensation. I would not have instigated a suit on
my own, but was quite willing to sign a few forms to become part of
the class action. I don't care how much the law firm made on the
case. I'm better off by $1,900 that I would have not received
otherwise, and they did all the work.

In my case, I learned about the suit from a comment made by a lumber
yard desk clerk. Neither the manufacturer nor the builder notified me
that I had any recourse, and I thought that I would just have to pay
for the replacement siding out of my own pocket. Had I learned about
the suit from a television ad, I might have a different opinion about
lawyers who advertise.


--


Tony Cooper
Orlando, FL