The battle over ink dry times and why it exists.

It has never been possible to make an ink that won't feather on the majority of
recycled papers....and to simultaneously make that same ink dry instantly on
paper made for ink jet printers. Ink jet ink has 80 to often well over 100
times as many surficants/detergents/spreaders as fountain pen ink at this point
in time. To expect a quick/instantaneous dry time of every ink on such paper
when such paper is built to resist exactly that - and then to expect that the
ink not feather or show up on the other side of a college store notebook page -
is just contradictory.


There are now thousands of different grades of paper. If an ink reaches 80% or
more of these grades without feathering - with many of those same grades that
previously feathered with all fountain pen inks - why destroy this feature for
a near instantaneous dry time on the top 5% of paper grades? This is the
chemical wall that has caused more than one type of ink regarding dry times.
You can also mix any Noodler's or other Noodler's made inks with each other to
reach the dry time YOU prefer. Otherwise, instead of two basic dry times
(under 15 seconds on velum, over 15 seconds on velum - writes on
recycled/newsprint etc...without seeing the other side, or so fast one can see
the other side's lines), there would be hundreds of such inks. The paper
companies have produced a gargantuan variety of papers - a combination of two
ink types covers nearly 100%, and one of those covers more than 80% but will be
slower drying on some grades as a result. Two ink types or hundreds? Hundreds
are just not feasible. One could make a chart and state which grade by which
manufacturer an ink is perfect for....but they change paper formulas on a dime
and often don't even notify those who sell the paper let alone the public or an
ink company. There would still be individuals who would want more - or less -
dry time for that particular grade of paper because that is THEIR INDIVIDUAL
PREFERENCE. Such preferences are limitless in their variety. Swisher ink is
faster drying ink - if you want an ink that is not quite as fast as
that....take a small sample of Noodler's standard inks and mix until you have
the effect you personally desire...and write down the formula for later
reference. That formula may very well be specific to YOUR favorite paper, YOUR
pen, YOUR writing speed and style, YOUR nib width...etc....


On the non-ink jet papers I have found standard Noodler's inks to be a joy to
write with....but the company was formed in part because of the problems of
feathering, too rapid a penetration, etc... At one point a fountain pen with
inks made in 1999 could not write properly on nearly every notebook sold in
highschools and universities in the eastern half of Massachusetts - then a new
yellow legal pad paper grade came about that feathered horribly and this grade
actually became standard in many major office supply stores. That situation
either had to change - or an entire generation would begin to associate the
fountain pen with excess feathering and missing a page of paper because the
writing showed up on the other side. That was the original reason for the
first bottle of standard Noodler's Black (the first order came from a fellow
who liked doing newspaper crossword puzzles with his fountain pen) - other
features came later.


So - if reducing dry times to five seconds comes at the cost of 80% of paper
grades made today...I suggest you mix Swisher with standard Noodler's to your
taste first. The standard inks MUST write on newsprint grades and others -
newsprint in particular is a good measure as it behaves just like the majority
of recycled paper grades made today...from airline pads to college bound 45
cent note book pads....up to moleskin and such as well. Noodler's is still
seeking versatility for the fountain pen in as many situations as is
economically and chemically possible - not just hand pressed velum paper
preferences!


Sooner or later, the paper companies might get to the point where due to
restricted resources or outright regulation...high majorities of paper grades
will be recycled. Either the fountain pen writes on this family of paper
grades - or the hobby is in trouble. In 1980, how many grades were recycled?
1990? Today? It is even now considered a mark of pride to have the recycled
symbol on a stack of new paper. With trends like that, recycled paper grades
are here to stay - let alone moleskin!

Hmmm, I find that Noodler's Black takes a full 60 seconds or more to
dry so that it won't smudge, when writing on photocopy paper- whether
recycled or not. This is compared to, say, 5-10 seconds on the same
paper using Parker or Waterman blue. It is my only qualm about this
ink. The color saturation and permanence is excellent. A 15 second
drying time would be fantastic!

Scaupaug1 wrote:
It has never been possible to make an ink that won't feather on the
majority of
recycled papers....and to simultaneously make that same ink dry
instantly on
paper made for ink jet printers. Ink jet ink has 80 to often well
over 100
times as many surficants/detergents/spreaders as fountain pen ink at
this point
in time. To expect a quick/instantaneous dry time of every ink on
such paper
when such paper is built to resist exactly that - and then to expect
that the
ink not feather or show up on the other side of a college store
notebook page -
is just contradictory.


There are now thousands of different grades of paper. If an ink
reaches 80% or
more of these grades without feathering - with many of those same
grades that
previously feathered with all fountain pen inks - why destroy this
feature for
a near instantaneous dry time on the top 5% of paper grades? This
is the
chemical wall that has caused more than one type of ink regarding dry
times.
You can also mix any Noodler's or other Noodler's made inks with each
other to
reach the dry time YOU prefer. Otherwise, instead of two basic dry
times
(under 15 seconds on velum, over 15 seconds on velum - writes on
recycled/newsprint etc...without seeing the other side, or so fast
one can see
the other side's lines), there would be hundreds of such inks. The
paper
companies have produced a gargantuan variety of papers - a
combination of two
ink types covers nearly 100%, and one of those covers more than 80%
but will be
slower drying on some grades as a result. Two ink types or hundreds?
Hundreds
are just not feasible. One could make a chart and state which grade
by which
manufacturer an ink is perfect for....but they change paper formulas
on a dime
and often don't even notify those who sell the paper let alone the
public or an
ink company. There would still be individuals who would want more -
or less -
dry time for that particular grade of paper because that is THEIR
INDIVIDUAL
PREFERENCE. Such preferences are limitless in their variety.
Swisher ink is
faster drying ink - if you want an ink that is not quite as fast as
that....take a small sample of Noodler's standard inks and mix until
you have
the effect you personally desire...and write down the formula for
later
reference. That formula may very well be specific to YOUR favorite
paper, YOUR
pen, YOUR writing speed and style, YOUR nib width...etc....


On the non-ink jet papers I have found standard Noodler's inks to be
a joy to
write with....but the company was formed in part because of the
problems of
feathering, too rapid a penetration, etc... At one point a fountain
pen with
inks made in 1999 could not write properly on nearly every notebook
sold in
highschools and universities in the eastern half of Massachusetts -
then a new
yellow legal pad paper grade came about that feathered horribly and
this grade
actually became standard in many major office supply stores. That
situation
either had to change - or an entire generation would begin to
associate the
fountain pen with excess feathering and missing a page of paper
because the
writing showed up on the other side. That was the original reason
for the
first bottle of standard Noodler's Black (the first order came from a
fellow
who liked doing newspaper crossword puzzles with his fountain pen) -
other
features came later.


So - if reducing dry times to five seconds comes at the cost of 80%
of paper
grades made today...I suggest you mix Swisher with standard Noodler's
to your
taste first. The standard inks MUST write on newsprint grades and
others -
newsprint in particular is a good measure as it behaves just like the
majority
of recycled paper grades made today...from airline pads to college
bound 45
cent note book pads....up to moleskin and such as well. Noodler's is
still
seeking versatility for the fountain pen in as many situations as is
economically and chemically possible - not just hand pressed velum
paper
preferences!


Sooner or later, the paper companies might get to the point where due
to
restricted resources or outright regulation...high majorities of
paper grades
will be recycled. Either the fountain pen writes on this family of
paper
grades - or the hobby is in trouble. In 1980, how many grades were
recycled?
1990? Today? It is even now considered a mark of pride to have the
recycled
symbol on a stack of new paper. With trends like that, recycled
paper grades
are here to stay - let alone moleskin!

Is the Swisher Black ink "permanent" as the regular Noodler black ink?
If not, does mixing the two cause the "permanent" regular Noodler ink
to loose that property?

On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 17:47:08 -0600, Tim McNamara
wrote:

Hmmm, I find that Noodler's Black takes a full 60 seconds or more to
dry so that it won't smudge, when writing on photocopy paper- whether
recycled or not. This is compared to, say, 5-10 seconds on the same
paper using Parker or Waterman blue. It is my only qualm about this
ink. The color saturation and permanence is excellent. A 15 second
drying time would be fantastic!

Want to try some of the Staples Cheapest our office provides?

You're right, of course. I'll have to downgrade my favorite legal
pads to use Noodler's. Of course, I'm almost out of Levenger pads, so
that's not so bad. Cheap paper does work well with Noodler's ink!

Pat

Email address works as is.

"GA" wrote:

Is the Swisher Black ink "permanent" as the regular Noodler black ink?
If not, does mixing the two cause the "permanent" regular Noodler ink
to loose that property?

No, the Swisher Pens ink is not as "permanent" as Noodler's black ink. I
mix the two, Noodler's black and Swisher Pens black about 50-50 for a
quicker drying ink that I use on Vellum, Pure Cotton and my recycled checks.
If you mix the two, let the ink dry until it doesn't smudge, run it under
water, bleach, ammonia, etc., and on the Swisher Pens ink will be affected.
I like the Noodler's ink, but as I told Nathan tonight I prefer my "mix" as
I find it tends to dry a little faster than Noodler's on most of the paper I
use and even though it tends to bleed through my checks and some recycled
paper, I prefer the quicker drying time. If you're not worried about
getting your paper wet or somebody forging a check and like a super fast
drying ink, you might want to try the Swisher Pens brand of ink (also made
by Nathan Tardif) on some of the paper that Noodler's take a little longer
to dry. If you are left handed and looking for a quick drying ink, try
using the Swisher Pens ink (not mixed with Noodler's) on some of the
Cambridge pads. I have found this ink dries in about 2 seconds on some of
these pads of paper when the humidity is low.

Best wishes,

Chuck Swisher -

Swisher Pens, Inc. - www.swisherpens.com

Tele: (757) 471-7445, TF: 1-888-340-7367, Fax: (757) 925-2787

On 2005-01-25, Scaupaug1 wrote:
It has never been possible to make an ink that won't feather on the majority of
recycled papers....and to simultaneously make that same ink dry instantly on


Thanks for this posting this. Great information for reference!


Nic

Is the Swisher Black ink "permanent" as the regular Noodler black ink?
If not, does mixing the two cause the "permanent" regular Noodler ink
to loose that property?

FYI, I have mixed Legal Lapis with Ottoman Azure in a 1:1 mix. Legal Lapis
is one of Noodler's permanent inks. You don't lose the permanence by doing
so. The non-permanent ink will simply wash away leaving the permanent ink
intact.

I know of others who have mixed the permanent inks with other Noodler's
colors and found the same to be true.
---

KCat

For Pen Talk, Images, Trading and Reviews: The Fountain Pen Network
http://pagesperso.laposte.net/fpnet

For Lupus Support and Info
http://www.ghg.net/schwerpt/ASLFAQ/

KCat wrote:
Is the Swisher Black ink "permanent" as the regular Noodler black
ink?
If not, does mixing the two cause the "permanent" regular Noodler
ink
to loose that property?

FYI, I have mixed Legal Lapis with Ottoman Azure in a 1:1 mix. Legal
Lapis
is one of Noodler's permanent inks. You don't lose the permanence by
doing
so. The non-permanent ink will simply wash away leaving the
permanent ink
intact.

I know of others who have mixed the permanent inks with other
Noodler's
colors and found the same to be true.
---

KCat

For Pen Talk, Images, Trading and Reviews: The Fountain Pen Network
http://pagesperso.laposte.net/fpnet

For Lupus Support and Info
http://www.ghg.net/schwerpt/ASLFAQ/

I wonder if Nathan or Chuck could comment on mixing "Legal Lapis with
Ottoman Azure" or similar mixes including the black. Is it true that
the permanent ink still remains or is the whole mixture reduced to a
"non-permanent" ink?

"GA" wrote in message
oups.com...


I wonder if Nathan or Chuck could comment on mixing "Legal Lapis with
Ottoman Azure" or similar mixes including the black. Is it true that
the permanent ink still remains or is the whole mixture reduced to a
"non-permanent" ink?

well, I hope they will comment. But it isn't as if I'm guessing here - I've
done the test - mixed the ink, written with it, run it under water. As have
several others using different Noodler's permanent inks. The ink is
permanent by an interaction between the ink and the cellulose fibres of the
paper (Nathan can explain more accurately I'm sure) therefore as long as
that chemical is present to create that interaction, I see no reason why
what I'm saying won't remain true. It may be that in very large dilutions
of the ink - say 1 ml LL to 30 mls Ottoman Azure, the remaining line will be
quite pale, but then - why bother mixing at that point?

"GA" wrote: I wonder if Nathan or Chuck could comment on mixing "Legal
Lapis with
Ottoman Azure" or similar mixes including the black. Is it true that
the permanent ink still remains or is the whole mixture reduced to a
"non-permanent" ink?

Can't comment on Legal Lapis as I believe this is an "exclusive" ink for
either Pendemonium or Art Brown. I have mixed the waterproof colors we
carry with regular Noodler's regular line of inks and our Swisher Pens brand
of ink (also made by Noodler's) and have found the same result that KCat
mentioned, the other inks can be removed (though some not that easy) and the
permanent colors remain. I am currently using a mixture of the New American
Eel Blue mixed with a few drops of the Swisher Pens North Sea Blue and so
far I really like it flows. It has increased the drying time significantly
on the paper I use most at work and it seems to flow much better in a pen
that has very light ink flow (an old Stipula Icastoni with one of the small
nibs). If find that Noodler's takes too long to dry on the paper you use,
try adding a small amount of our ink to a converter full and see if that
helps.

Best wishes,

Chuck Swisher -

Swisher Pens, Inc. - www.swisherpens.com

Tele: (757) 471-7445, TF: 1-888-340-7367, Fax: (757) 925-2787