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#12
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Dondi,
I have provided people lists of the dealers; I even have had a phone conference with two of the dealers and another ANA member who emailed me about this post. These dealers confirmed my story. My question is that why are you so quick to call me a liar when you don't know me? Why not email me and ask me for more information? I am not trying to sell anything. And why are several other collectors confirming my experience while dealers like you so quick to call me a liar, stupid, etc? Sort of my point? You have an extremely jaded view of people. And you prove my point: "$500+ profit is flat out guaranteed? Those coins would have never made it past my table, and I'd have turned the profit before I left the show, probably before I ate supper." Facing someone with two raw coins and no knowledge, you immediately think "$500+" profit. You don't suggest that they take it down to the end of the hall and slab it. Your IMMEDIATE reaction is to take the money and run like crazy. You can call it whatever you want. You can say it is the seller's responsibity. You can make any excuse you want. But you would brag about how a couple of rubes sold you a valuable coin because they were clueless and trusted you to provide a fair price including a reasonable markup. Stupid people. Smart dealer. Sort of the attitude that has worn me out as a collector. Dondi3 DONDI enterprises. BUY, SELL, TRADE. RARE COINS & PRECIOUS METALS Member COINNET, CSNS, ANA, INA, MOON, ILNA. |
#13
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Drink it, enjoy it, share it with friends, argue about the grade Wine
Spectator is, and not worry that someone dipped my bottle or stuck it in an ACG slab to make it taste better. "Jack Russell" wrote in message ... My good friend, the law profession, paid for drinks that night - and looked ill about our day. He agreed with me - in ANY other field what these dealers attempted would be unethical; in many cases even criminal fraud. One man's "caveat emptor" is another man's thievery. And I am sick of the lot of them. I just can't stand being around an entire crowd of people all trying to rip each other off. And certainly not any "fun." I've switched to wine tasting. What are going to do after you find out the $50 bottle of wine you bought only cost the winery $12 to produce? Jack |
#14
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#15
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John Stone wrote:
bassin (~AZ Rider~) wrote in message ... IMO it is the responsibility of the coin holder and/or whatever it is you possess to educate themselves on their holdings. In this day and age, more than any prior, arming yourself with information is not a difficult task. Sure, there's a sucker born every minute.. but then again, there's also a market for wooden nickels. just my 2 I think it is more the responsiblity of a coin dealer to give a fair offer for coins then it is for the seller to understand all the ins and outs of the coin business. A feeble old woman who inherited her husbands collection probably is not going to understand the MS grading system. She shouldn't be ripped off for lack of knowledge. A virile young man should? ;-) The part of the story that rings the BS meter is the thought that *any dealer* in a super-competitive environment like an ANA show is going to risk having a 1916 SLQ go down the street by making a $50 offer. A rainy Tuesday afternoon in the store front? I'd say it was possible. Next door to 300+ competitors on the biggest bourse floor of the year? That would be stupid. ;-) Alan 'unless there's a bigger conspiracy than revealed' |
#16
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ospam (Ira Stein) wrote in message ...
James McCown states: ospam (Ira Stein) wrote in message ... I find your story hard, no, impossible to believe. I don't. Then you are just too gullible, Jim. I hear horror stories like this about some dealers who own shops. You know the ones...little old widow comes in with her late husband's prized coin collection and gets 10c on the $ if lucky. Well, Ira, I'll give you just one example of what I have seen. A non-collector in Columbus was trying to sell a collection she inherited. She had received an offer from a nationally prominent dealer in the area (hint:Westerville) and was unsure whether or not to accept it. A friend of mine who runs an antique store asked me to look at the woman's coins. Here is just a partial list: (1) Complete set of indian cents. The 1877 was at least MS-63 BN. (2) Complete set of standing liberty quarters. The 1916 and the overdate were decent VG's and the 1927-S was a solid MS-60. (3) Nearly complete set of Morgan dollars (lacking 1895-P and 1893-S). The 89-CC was XF. so far as I could tell, all of the key dates were genuine. The offer was $500! This kind of crap goes on all the time, at coin shows and elsewhere. I don't understand why, but there is some adverse selection problem that attracts unscrupulous people to become coin dealers. You can stick your head in the sand and deny it all you want, but it's a fact. |
#17
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I have to agree Ira. And it goes beyond the occassional inheritance or
newbie. Back in April, we had Chief Engraver John Mercanti come to our coin club to speak. He always signs our COA's to the Commems that he has done at the end of the meeting. Before the meeting, to kill time, I always go to my coin dealers shop and hang out. I had brought a few commems for Mr. Mercanti to autograph but I wanted one more. I chose the 1986 SoL set(the silver dollar and the clad half). My dealer looked at THREE different price guides and quoted that it would cost me $28!!!!! The set at the time only sold for something around $16-$18!!!!! He was simply trying to capitalize on my need to get something autographed. However, I do not intend to sell these on eBay and hence, I declined his offer. So, the search continues for the set. Atleast I have the power to say "NO". THAT is the most powerful word in this hobby! I have other horror stories of the injustices that were done to me but I will spare the audience. Fred "Phil Barnhart" wrote in message om... This summer, a good friend and ethics professor at a prominent law school invited me up for a weekend. During this visit he commented that it had been quite awhile since I had mentioned coins to him. I had been an avid collector. I told him the truth. "I am sick of dishonest, unethical and greedy people. So I have sold almost all my coins and am leaving the hobby. It is just too hard on the psyche" After a great deal of debate, I made an offer to him. The ANA convention would be in Baltimore in a few weeks and I offered to prove to him that finding an honest dealer was harder in the convention floor than in any court. The bet was on. We met up at the convention, and I explained what we had to do. I had two coins, slabbed by well-known services, that we would remove from the slabs and try to sell. Each would be in an Eagle holder. Our story was that these were my father's coins, and he was now in a home and needed some money. One would be an 1892-O Half Eagle graded AU-55 (value between $1500-$2000). The second would be an 1916 Standing Lib graded AU-58 (value between $4500-$5100). Over six hours we approached 40 dealers (one of which posts here on occasion - do you remember us?). We were lied to (10 dealers pointed to the price of an 1892 Half Eagle on their grey sheet instead of the New Orleans coin). 6 dealers gave us prices for the 1917 Standing lib. What did the others do? Almost every one asked us how much we wanted. One dealer even had similarly grade 1916 in his case - he purposely laid several papers over that area of the case while we chatted. Almost every dealer undergraded these coins considerably. They used the terms "very good" and "fine." At least 8 dealers said that they had been cleaned. Here are the lowest and highest offers: 1892-O Half Eagle Low offer: $250 Median offer: $650 High offer: $875 1916 Standing Lib Low offer: $50 (offered 3 times) Median offer: $550 High offer: $1300 Many of these dealers were good ANA members, respected, and heavy Coin World advertisers. Not a single one of them were ethical. One well-known dealer eyed the Standing lib for several minutes, declared it an "extra-fine" and offered me $900. "Are you positive about the grade?" "Oh, yes. I've dealt with thousands of coins over the years. My standards are very strict." "What about grading companies?" Many of his coins were slabbed. "They can be all over the map, but usually my grade matches theirs. Slabbing a coin is expensive, though." "So this coin is extra-fine, and you can give me $900 right now? How about $1100?" He pretends to think about it a bit. "I think I know someone who might take this. MMmmmmmmmmmm. Okay." "What if I told you I know this coin is actually AU, was purchased from B&M five years ago, and is worth over 4 grand?" If looks would kill, I'd be dead. "Everyone is entitled to their opinion. A coin is only worth what someone else is willing to pay for it." He had a few other choice words then had to call someone on his cell. This dealer was the only one we confronted. My good friend, the law profession, paid for drinks that night - and looked ill about our day. He agreed with me - in ANY other field what these dealers attempted would be unethical; in many cases even criminal fraud. One man's "caveat emptor" is another man's thievery. And I am sick of the lot of them. I just can't stand being around an entire crowd of people all trying to rip each other off. And certainly not any "fun." I've switched to wine tasting. For the record, I sent the coins back through the slabbing process - the standing lib came even back MS-63. Lol! I sold both of them - this time letting the dealer in LA know I knew what the coins were actually worth. The final price: 1916 Standing Lib: $5300 1892-O Half Eagle: $1600 Oh, and why did I take such a low price on the standing lib? I was actually offered more. Because I think the grading service messed up; in my own eyes it is a great AU, not a poor UNC. And ethically, I could not take more. I wonder if this dealer will discount the coin against the grade when he sells it . . . |
#18
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"Phil Barnhart" wrote in message om... Dondi, I have provided people lists of the dealers; I even have had a phone conference with two of the dealers and another ANA member who emailed me about this post. These dealers confirmed my story. My question is that why are you so quick to call me a liar when you don't know me? Why not email me and ask me for more information? I am not trying to sell anything. And why are several other collectors confirming my experience while dealers like you so quick to call me a liar, stupid, etc? Sort of my point? You have an extremely jaded view of people. And you prove my point: "$500+ profit is flat out guaranteed? Those coins would have never made it past my table, and I'd have turned the profit before I left the show, probably before I ate supper." Facing someone with two raw coins and no knowledge, you immediately think "$500+" profit. You don't suggest that they take it down to the end of the hall and slab it. Your IMMEDIATE reaction is to take the money and run like crazy. You can call it whatever you want. You can say it is the seller's responsibity. You can make any excuse you want. But you would brag about how a couple of rubes sold you a valuable coin because they were clueless and trusted you to provide a fair price including a reasonable markup. Stupid people. Smart dealer. Sort of the attitude that has worn me out as a collector. Phil, I have read and enjoyed this thread from the start. I, too, have a difficult time believing that your experiences were as bad as you portrayed, for at least two reasons. First, I have never had a lowball experience with a dealer, other than one brief experience with what I believe is called a "vest pocket" dealer, who worked his deals out of his home. Second, like several others, I find it hard to believe that the coin show dealers in your story would still be in business with the type of antics you say they were trying to pull. If the story implied a small percentage tried to lowball you, I could accept that, concluding that the few lowballers would not stay in business very long. I took an Isabella quarter, ICG AU58 to the St. Louis Silver Dollar show last October. I showed it to 5 or 6 dealers. Every dealer I showed it to thought it was overgraded by ICG, and I agreed, feeling the same way before I ever entered the hall. Half of the dealers did not want to make an offer, simply saying they were not interested. A couple of dealers made offers that I could refuse, and did, but they were not what I would call low ball offers. One dealer said he thought the coin was not an AU58 and asked me what I thought the coin graded. I told him I didn't think it was a 58, but it was better than a 50 and that's as close as I would come to a grade. He asked me how much I wanted, I told him a figure and he took it. I don't consider a single dealer at this show as a bad experience. I also sold a couple of ancients for a friend at the same show, offered about half of retail, with the explanation that he had abundant supply, which was evident from his case. I took the offer happily and do not consider the offer as unfair or lowball. I have had several (maybe a half dozen) other good experiences at smaller, local coin shows, getting what I thought were strong offers and taking them. I just have a hard time imagining a dealer offering $50 on a coin that is a solid $4,000 coin; not in a hall full of dealers that would reveal my offer as way out of line. I can't imagine a dealer offering $50 on a coin when even an offer of $2,000 would represent a guaranteed profit and the potential for tremendous profit. Why would any business man let that kind of profit walk away from the table by making a stupid offer. That goes against logic, and my personal experiences. So, I understand why your story is getting strong resistance. It is just hard to believe. Bill |
#19
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"Phil Barnhart" wrote in message om... Mmm - lets say you know nothing of coins and get several as part of an estate. HOW are you going to educate yourself? Library references in most towns are woefully out of date and inadequate. Do a Google search on coin collecting (make it fair - pick a subject you know NOTHING about collecting, do a search, and give yourself a half-hour - could you now determine the value of a particular item? Nope). So what are ya going to do. What would a typical non-collector do? Since numismatics is one of the few areas without independent appraisers, you take your coins to the local dealer . . . . What else would someone do? Reasonably? Find or make a friend who is an experienced collector, sit down with him and his collection and your stuff and start asking questions. How does anyone learn about anything? They have a teacher or a mentor. Were you born knowing how to drive or how to balance a checkbook or ride a bicycle or use a computer? I've been using computers since the late 1970s and still don't pretend to know everything, and still ask questions of friends who specialize in certain areas in which my knowledge is lacking. Of course I don't NEED to know everything there is to know. I don't NEED to know how to program in assembly language. If you're trying to sell coins, you don't NEED to know the mechanics of how a coin press works.. You can only take "self taught" to a certain limit, and then you have to seek the advice of others with more experience and just start asking a lot of questions. There's only so much you get from buying a pile of coin books and trying to teach yourself what it all means. Unfortunately, they don't give college courses in Numismatics, but if there really are tens of millions of collectors in the US, they probably should.. If they did, all those ripoff teevee coin selling shows would soon go away as people learned what a scam they are. Dealers wouldn't rub their hands with glee like Mr. Burns when they fleece an uneducated seller out of a valuable coin for pennies on the dollar. It's like anything else in life. If you wanna play the game, you have to learn the rules.. and the best way to learn the rules are from someone else who already knows them.. Harv |
#20
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