Beck and Goldline International

Frank Galikanokus wrote:
"Mr. Jaggers" wrote:

Frank Galikanokus wrote:
"Mr. Jaggers" wrote:

oly wrote:
On May 18, 2:59 pm, Ken Barr wrote:
In article ,
Frank Galikanokus wrote:

Talk show host Glenn Beck and Goldline International, a
California-based gold retailer, have colluded to use fear
mongering tactics to bilk investors, according to a stinging
report issued Tuesday by Rep. Anthony Weiner (D-N.Y.).

Read mohttp://www.politico.com/news/stories/0510/37413.html

Wow ... a politician accusing a coin deeler and a talk radio host
of unethical behavior ...

It looks like I'm going to have to trot on down to Target for a
new irony meter ... mint just exploded!

--
Ken Barr Numismatics email:
P. O. Box 32541 website: http://www.kenbarr.com
San Jose, CA 95152 Coins, currency, exonumia, souvenir cards,
etc. 408-272-3247 NEXT SHOW: Vallejo Numismatic Society 5/2 (no
table)

The proof of the pudding is in the eating, and if the sellers'
wares weren't too overpriced, presumably those "scared-out
of-their-shorts" gold buyers have done well recently.

Only if they bought at X and sold at Y, where Y X. How many
people buy gold for the short term? Likely not the scared/shorts
types.

If you're NOT worried about the future value of all the fiat
government paper and all the shabby government promises, that
would be a sign that something's quite wrong with your mental
faculties.

Being worried and doing something pro-actively about it are two
usually-mutually-exclusive activities. How many times over the
past two to three years have you suddenly clammed up when I
pointedly asked what actions should be taken to protect oneself
against those evil things, mon vieux? Just sayin'

James

The old adage is to buy low and sell high.

The sad truth is that the vast majority of "investors" buy high and
sell low.

Now is not the time to buy, it's time to sell.

O Great Wise and Wonderful Prophet, whither the market?

James the Ob'd Servant

When prices are at historic levels, when the buy, buy, buy messages
reaches hysterical levels, it's time to sell.

That seems to be exactly what happened, what was it, about 2 1/2 years ago?
Get enough computers with price points set to similar levels, and the whole
thing cascades down like a house of cards.

James the Bear Marketeer

Frank Galikanokus wrote:
"Mr. Jaggers" wrote:

oly wrote:
On May 19, 7:21 am, "Mr. Jaggers" lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com
wrote:
oly wrote:
On May 18, 9:32 pm, "Bruce Remick" wrote:
"Peter" wrote in message

...
On May 18, 7:56 pm, "Mr. Jaggers" lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com
wrote:

Bruce Remick wrote:
"Mr. Jaggers" lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com wrote in message
...
oly wrote:
On May 18, 2:59 pm, Ken Barr wrote:
In article ,
Frank Galikanokus wrote:

Talk show host Glenn Beck and Goldline International, a
California-based gold retailer, have colluded to use fear
mongering tactics to bilk investors, according to a
stinging report issued Tuesday by Rep. Anthony Weiner
(D-N.Y.).

Read
mohttp://www.politico.com/news/stories/0510/37413.html

Wow ... a politician accusing a coin deeler and a talk radio
host of unethical behavior ...

It looks like I'm going to have to trot on down to Target
for a new irony meter ... mint just exploded!

--
Ken Barr Numismatics email:
P. O. Box 32541 website:http://www.kenbarr.com
San Jose, CA 95152 Coins, currency, exonumia, souvenir
cards, etc. 408-272-3247 NEXT SHOW: Vallejo Numismatic
Society 5/2 (no table)

The proof of the pudding is in the eating, and if the
sellers' wares weren't too overpriced, presumably those
"scared-out of-their-shorts" gold buyers have done well
recently.

Only if they bought at X and sold at Y, where Y X. How many
people buy gold for the short term? Likely not the
scared/shorts types.
If you're NOT worried about the future value of all the fiat
government paper and all the shabby government promises, that
would be a sign that something's quite wrong with your mental
faculties.

Being worried and doing something pro-actively about it are
two usually-mutually-exclusive activities. How many times
over the past two to three years have you suddenly clammed up
when I pointedly asked what actions should be taken to
protect oneself against those evil things, mon vieux? Just
sayin'

James

Seems to me that we've had federal fiat paper since the Civil
War with no tragic collapse in value so far, and we've gone
through some tough times and weak administrations over those
150 years. These current times undoubtedly are among the most
challenging for us, but I see no reason to panic about the
future value of our dollar. But then I'm not a pessimist by
nature.

History records numerous panics, recessions, and depressions,
all while we were on the esteemed "gold standard." Even gold
could be considered "fiat" money, since its value depends on
what someone other than I says it is. Don't get me wrong, I
like gold, I like its looks, but I have yet to see a
well-crafted scenario of what would happen when push came to
shove. If somebody decides his loaf of bread is worth a St.
Gaudens twenty, very few indeed will eat. The rest will attempt
to kill him who eats, and steal his gold AND his bread.

James- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I think that pushing and shoving (and especially killing) is a
bit over the top. In that situation on hopes there are still
police. If not, things are very bad, indeed and exactly which
form of money would
be best seems too hypothetical to make accurate predictions.

The observation that we have a form of social democracy, that our
leaders have populist inclinations and have expressed them in
concrete terms is enough for the question of stability of prices
and a store of value to be discussed.

The longer term trend for the price of gold has been clear enough
(from $20/Oz to $1200/Oz). Inconveniently for an argument that we
should depend primarily on gold, it has occurred over a time
frame that exceeds a normal lifetime. The case that it is a hedge
against a weakening currency is a case that much of the world
understands. Admittedly, the US dollar has behaved better than
some other currencies and folks who lived in Indonesia, Turkey or
Zimbabwe tend to scoff at our fretfulness; even so, perhaps in
milder amounts, inflation can happen here.

My eclectic choices of items to purchase does not seem to
resemble those chosen for the CPI since my expenses do seem to
go up a lot and the CPI does not. Gold has done a somewhat
better job of tracking my expenses than the dollar has (e.g., in
about 1960 a Piper PA-18-150, new, cost about $5000; today a
usable but thoroughly used one costs about $80,000).

As for whether the advocates of one position or another have been
bribed, ask yourself whether the politicians are themselves pure.

My personal interest in gold as a commodity is as a hedge. I have
sufficient cash for my needs. My theory is that a small part
needs to be in something that will hold its value (or at least
vary in value in
a different way than paper money). Personally I prefer to keep
some coins and some Goerz Dagors. They certainly won't ward off
bullets, but they might be useful in case doubts arise about the
value of the various forms of colored paper I have. My broad
theory about the correct proportion in other things is to have
enough that it be useful
in buying immediate needs and not be a significant (e.g., less
that 5%) part of my savings.
============

In any extreme crisis scenario where the dollar actually becomes
worthless, one might be better off with a bunker of MRE's,
bottled water, and an AK-47 w/ammo.....plus of course any
particular Starbucks blend one just can't live without. That
stock of gold kept as an inflation hedge will be of little
practical use unless you really need a nostalgia fix. The
process of "buying things" will be a fond memory. Fortunately,
there's a happy ending to this movie. ;)- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Sorry Mr. Remick, but Peter's reply beats yours' by a country
mile. You asked "where's the tragic collapse of the dollar?" and
he correctly replied that it's already happened, but it has been
managed over longer than one person's lifetime.

It is also much more difficult to see the decline when there are
no alternative foreign currencies that are based on/ convertible
in fixed ratios to precious metals. It's easier to be a drunk
when the whole world is the Bowery - you don't stand out nearly as
distinctly.

Of course, we could still see the remaining 4% or 5% of the
dollar's pre-1913 value slip away in one fell swoop.

You really won't be able to use gold DURING a collapse or
revolution. Gold is the time machine that takes you from one side
of a period of anarchy to the other side when normality returns.
Silver would be a better tool during the bad times, but yes,
actually having stored goods for personal use or barter would be
valuable too.

Have you noticed that the ammunition shortages aren't getting any
better???

The ammunition shortages are being caused by irrational fears that
somehow the gummint is going to confiscate private firearms in the
near future (actually, shouldn't we wonder why it hasn't happened
already, since these fears were first expressed back in '07?),
these fears, of course, being trumped up by the radio talkers.
There's just nothing quite like stoking the fires of fear and hate
via several hours a day output from the likes of Beck and
Limbaugh, and I know plenty of otherwise decent folks right here
in North Lugburz who have fallen under their sickening spell.

That said, your statement about not being able to use gold during a
collapse or revolution has merit. You really cannot predict the
course of such an event (viz. the French Revolution, one of
history's greatest and most ironic failures), so a resort to
survivalism might get you through. How many rolls of papier h will
it take to trade for your pound of jerky, mon bon voisin? And don't
get any funny ideas, 'cause I know karate.

James the Barterer- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Indeed, the French Revolution is probably THE guide for what could
happen in a "modern" "civilized" nation gone beserk. Flashing gold
during the French Revolution was a quick way to get a free shave by
the "National Razor".

They say that vendors sold "programs" of the names of those
scheduled to be guillotined each day to the crowd gathered to
watch. I'll bet the vendors didn't insist on anything other than
assignats.

Nevertheless, I tend to think that silver dimes, quarters and half
dollars will function for the beef jerkey trade. My studies of the
German Hyperinflation 1919-1923 make me think that those who had
silver coins (and foreign notes and coins) didn't fare badly at all
during that period.

I balk at suggesting to you (or anyone), mon vieux, exactly what to
do because so many business/investment situations that I thought
were solid have bellied-up in the last three years. Things that I
thought were good also have done a great job of losing five-sixths
of their value with amazing consistency. Of course, most of the
ones I thought were crappy did not make it either, but my ability
to identify the good ones hasn't been stellar. Also, I strongly
think that we will do a "double-dip" recession in 2010-11.

I harbor no illusions that the current "recovery" is anything other
than a fool's rally. There are still way too many people who stand
to gain handsomely from another market drop. They have the
wherewithal to bring it about, and they won't wait until the Dow is
anywhere near 14k, methinks.

James



Cannes: How the bankers fleeced the world
Director Charles Ferguson on his smash Cannes doc, which indicts the
financial sector as a "criminal industry"

http://www.salon.com/entertainment/m...son/index.html

Wow. While I'm not in a position to independently verify all Ferguson says
in that interview, it has a major ring of truth and reality about it. I'd
be interested in what other rcc people have to say about it.

James

"Mr. Jaggers" wrote:

Frank Galikanokus wrote:
"Mr. Jaggers" wrote:

oly wrote:
On May 19, 7:21 am, "Mr. Jaggers" lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com
wrote:
oly wrote:
On May 18, 9:32 pm, "Bruce Remick" wrote:
"Peter" wrote in message

...
On May 18, 7:56 pm, "Mr. Jaggers" lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com
wrote:

Bruce Remick wrote:
"Mr. Jaggers" lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com wrote in message
...
oly wrote:
On May 18, 2:59 pm, Ken Barr wrote:
In article ,
Frank Galikanokus wrote:

Talk show host Glenn Beck and Goldline International, a
California-based gold retailer, have colluded to use fear
mongering tactics to bilk investors, according to a
stinging report issued Tuesday by Rep. Anthony Weiner
(D-N.Y.).

Read
mohttp://www.politico.com/news/stories/0510/37413.html

Wow ... a politician accusing a coin deeler and a talk radio
host of unethical behavior ...

It looks like I'm going to have to trot on down to Target
for a new irony meter ... mint just exploded!

--
Ken Barr Numismatics email:
P. O. Box 32541 website:http://www.kenbarr.com
San Jose, CA 95152 Coins, currency, exonumia, souvenir
cards, etc. 408-272-3247 NEXT SHOW: Vallejo Numismatic
Society 5/2 (no table)

The proof of the pudding is in the eating, and if the
sellers' wares weren't too overpriced, presumably those
"scared-out of-their-shorts" gold buyers have done well
recently.

Only if they bought at X and sold at Y, where Y X. How many
people buy gold for the short term? Likely not the
scared/shorts types.
If you're NOT worried about the future value of all the fiat
government paper and all the shabby government promises, that
would be a sign that something's quite wrong with your mental
faculties.

Being worried and doing something pro-actively about it are
two usually-mutually-exclusive activities. How many times
over the past two to three years have you suddenly clammed up
when I pointedly asked what actions should be taken to
protect oneself against those evil things, mon vieux? Just
sayin'

James

Seems to me that we've had federal fiat paper since the Civil
War with no tragic collapse in value so far, and we've gone
through some tough times and weak administrations over those
150 years. These current times undoubtedly are among the most
challenging for us, but I see no reason to panic about the
future value of our dollar. But then I'm not a pessimist by
nature.

History records numerous panics, recessions, and depressions,
all while we were on the esteemed "gold standard." Even gold
could be considered "fiat" money, since its value depends on
what someone other than I says it is. Don't get me wrong, I
like gold, I like its looks, but I have yet to see a
well-crafted scenario of what would happen when push came to
shove. If somebody decides his loaf of bread is worth a St.
Gaudens twenty, very few indeed will eat. The rest will attempt
to kill him who eats, and steal his gold AND his bread.

James- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I think that pushing and shoving (and especially killing) is a
bit over the top. In that situation on hopes there are still
police. If not, things are very bad, indeed and exactly which
form of money would
be best seems too hypothetical to make accurate predictions.

The observation that we have a form of social democracy, that our
leaders have populist inclinations and have expressed them in
concrete terms is enough for the question of stability of prices
and a store of value to be discussed.

The longer term trend for the price of gold has been clear enough
(from $20/Oz to $1200/Oz). Inconveniently for an argument that we
should depend primarily on gold, it has occurred over a time
frame that exceeds a normal lifetime. The case that it is a hedge
against a weakening currency is a case that much of the world
understands. Admittedly, the US dollar has behaved better than
some other currencies and folks who lived in Indonesia, Turkey or
Zimbabwe tend to scoff at our fretfulness; even so, perhaps in
milder amounts, inflation can happen here.

My eclectic choices of items to purchase does not seem to
resemble those chosen for the CPI since my expenses do seem to
go up a lot and the CPI does not. Gold has done a somewhat
better job of tracking my expenses than the dollar has (e.g., in
about 1960 a Piper PA-18-150, new, cost about $5000; today a
usable but thoroughly used one costs about $80,000).

As for whether the advocates of one position or another have been
bribed, ask yourself whether the politicians are themselves pure.

My personal interest in gold as a commodity is as a hedge. I have
sufficient cash for my needs. My theory is that a small part
needs to be in something that will hold its value (or at least
vary in value in
a different way than paper money). Personally I prefer to keep
some coins and some Goerz Dagors. They certainly won't ward off
bullets, but they might be useful in case doubts arise about the
value of the various forms of colored paper I have. My broad
theory about the correct proportion in other things is to have
enough that it be useful
in buying immediate needs and not be a significant (e.g., less
that 5%) part of my savings.
============

In any extreme crisis scenario where the dollar actually becomes
worthless, one might be better off with a bunker of MRE's,
bottled water, and an AK-47 w/ammo.....plus of course any
particular Starbucks blend one just can't live without. That
stock of gold kept as an inflation hedge will be of little
practical use unless you really need a nostalgia fix. The
process of "buying things" will be a fond memory. Fortunately,
there's a happy ending to this movie. ;)- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Sorry Mr. Remick, but Peter's reply beats yours' by a country
mile. You asked "where's the tragic collapse of the dollar?" and
he correctly replied that it's already happened, but it has been
managed over longer than one person's lifetime.

It is also much more difficult to see the decline when there are
no alternative foreign currencies that are based on/ convertible
in fixed ratios to precious metals. It's easier to be a drunk
when the whole world is the Bowery - you don't stand out nearly as
distinctly.

Of course, we could still see the remaining 4% or 5% of the
dollar's pre-1913 value slip away in one fell swoop.

You really won't be able to use gold DURING a collapse or
revolution. Gold is the time machine that takes you from one side
of a period of anarchy to the other side when normality returns.
Silver would be a better tool during the bad times, but yes,
actually having stored goods for personal use or barter would be
valuable too.

Have you noticed that the ammunition shortages aren't getting any
better???

The ammunition shortages are being caused by irrational fears that
somehow the gummint is going to confiscate private firearms in the
near future (actually, shouldn't we wonder why it hasn't happened
already, since these fears were first expressed back in '07?),
these fears, of course, being trumped up by the radio talkers.
There's just nothing quite like stoking the fires of fear and hate
via several hours a day output from the likes of Beck and
Limbaugh, and I know plenty of otherwise decent folks right here
in North Lugburz who have fallen under their sickening spell.

That said, your statement about not being able to use gold during a
collapse or revolution has merit. You really cannot predict the
course of such an event (viz. the French Revolution, one of
history's greatest and most ironic failures), so a resort to
survivalism might get you through. How many rolls of papier h will
it take to trade for your pound of jerky, mon bon voisin? And don't
get any funny ideas, 'cause I know karate.

James the Barterer- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Indeed, the French Revolution is probably THE guide for what could
happen in a "modern" "civilized" nation gone beserk. Flashing gold
during the French Revolution was a quick way to get a free shave by
the "National Razor".

They say that vendors sold "programs" of the names of those
scheduled to be guillotined each day to the crowd gathered to
watch. I'll bet the vendors didn't insist on anything other than
assignats.

Nevertheless, I tend to think that silver dimes, quarters and half
dollars will function for the beef jerkey trade. My studies of the
German Hyperinflation 1919-1923 make me think that those who had
silver coins (and foreign notes and coins) didn't fare badly at all
during that period.

I balk at suggesting to you (or anyone), mon vieux, exactly what to
do because so many business/investment situations that I thought
were solid have bellied-up in the last three years. Things that I
thought were good also have done a great job of losing five-sixths
of their value with amazing consistency. Of course, most of the
ones I thought were crappy did not make it either, but my ability
to identify the good ones hasn't been stellar. Also, I strongly
think that we will do a "double-dip" recession in 2010-11.

I harbor no illusions that the current "recovery" is anything other
than a fool's rally. There are still way too many people who stand
to gain handsomely from another market drop. They have the
wherewithal to bring it about, and they won't wait until the Dow is
anywhere near 14k, methinks.

James



Cannes: How the bankers fleeced the world
Director Charles Ferguson on his smash Cannes doc, which indicts the
financial sector as a "criminal industry"

http://www.salon.com/entertainment/m...son/index.html

Wow. While I'm not in a position to independently verify all Ferguson says
in that interview, it has a major ring of truth and reality about it. I'd
be interested in what other rcc people have to say about it.

James

Look up these links for a deeper understanding of how "deregulation" has
lead to economic ruin.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glass–Steagall_Act

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garn_–_...stitutions_Act

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gramm–Leach–Bliley_Act

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodi...on_Act_of_2000

JAM

"Mr. Jaggers" wrote:

Frank Galikanokus wrote:
"Mr. Jaggers" wrote:

Frank Galikanokus wrote:
"Mr. Jaggers" wrote:

oly wrote:
On May 18, 2:59 pm, Ken Barr wrote:
In article ,
Frank Galikanokus wrote:

Talk show host Glenn Beck and Goldline International, a
California-based gold retailer, have colluded to use fear
mongering tactics to bilk investors, according to a stinging
report issued Tuesday by Rep. Anthony Weiner (D-N.Y.).

Read mohttp://www.politico.com/news/stories/0510/37413.html

Wow ... a politician accusing a coin deeler and a talk radio host
of unethical behavior ...

It looks like I'm going to have to trot on down to Target for a
new irony meter ... mint just exploded!

--
Ken Barr Numismatics email:
P. O. Box 32541 website: http://www.kenbarr.com
San Jose, CA 95152 Coins, currency, exonumia, souvenir cards,
etc. 408-272-3247 NEXT SHOW: Vallejo Numismatic Society 5/2 (no
table)

The proof of the pudding is in the eating, and if the sellers'
wares weren't too overpriced, presumably those "scared-out
of-their-shorts" gold buyers have done well recently.

Only if they bought at X and sold at Y, where Y X. How many
people buy gold for the short term? Likely not the scared/shorts
types.

If you're NOT worried about the future value of all the fiat
government paper and all the shabby government promises, that
would be a sign that something's quite wrong with your mental
faculties.

Being worried and doing something pro-actively about it are two
usually-mutually-exclusive activities. How many times over the
past two to three years have you suddenly clammed up when I
pointedly asked what actions should be taken to protect oneself
against those evil things, mon vieux? Just sayin'

James

The old adage is to buy low and sell high.

The sad truth is that the vast majority of "investors" buy high and
sell low.

Now is not the time to buy, it's time to sell.

O Great Wise and Wonderful Prophet, whither the market?

James the Ob'd Servant

When prices are at historic levels, when the buy, buy, buy messages
reaches hysterical levels, it's time to sell.

That seems to be exactly what happened, what was it, about 2 1/2 years ago?
Get enough computers with price points set to similar levels, and the whole
thing cascades down like a house of cards.

James the Bear Marketeer

It happened with the .com bubble and then real estate bubble and then...

JAM

On May 19, 10:19*am, Frank Galikanokus
wrote:


The only people pushing for a return to the gold standard are those that
are heavily invested in gold, like Ron Paul.


JAM- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I'm not sure I remember correctly, but I think Reagan asked Ron Paul
for a concrete proposal to return the USA to a gold standard and he
was unable to provide one. I don't think it would be a simple matter.

On May 19, 5:27*pm, Frank Galikanokus
wrote:

When prices are at historic levels, when the buy, buy, buy messages
reaches hysterical levels, it's time to sell.


It happened with the .com bubble and then real estate bubble and then...

JAM- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I remember the 1970's pretty well. The level of hype as we approached
1980 was quite a bit more hysterical than just now.

Robert Prechter is quite sure it is time to sell gold, but my
impression is that he has been a gold skept since around 2002 or so.
I suspect he just doesn't like the stuff. Some other sensible folks
differ.

Peter wrote:
On May 19, 5:27 pm, Frank Galikanokus
wrote:

When prices are at historic levels, when the buy, buy, buy messages
reaches hysterical levels, it's time to sell.


It happened with the .com bubble and then real estate bubble and
then...

JAM- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I remember the 1970's pretty well. The level of hype as we approached
1980 was quite a bit more hysterical than just now.

Unlike the late 1970s, we now have media talkers and cable tv news that
carry the term "hysterical" to a height we have not seen and could not see
previously. The hysteria has found fertile ground in private email and
Facebook, just to name two additional outlets that weren't around back then.

James

Peter wrote:
On May 19, 10:19 am, Frank Galikanokus
wrote:


The only people pushing for a return to the gold standard are those
that are heavily invested in gold, like Ron Paul.


JAM- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I'm not sure I remember correctly, but I think Reagan asked Ron Paul
for a concrete proposal to return the USA to a gold standard and he
was unable to provide one. I don't think it would be a simple matter.

Exactly - not a simple matter. But, considering the intellect of the man on
the street, politicians know they have to reduce everything to a sound bite
or risk losing the next election. Simple solutions always play well in
Peoria, because they almost always zap the other guy. Complex solutions zap
you and me.

James

Frank Galikanokus wrote:
"Mr. Jaggers" wrote:

Frank Galikanokus wrote:
"Mr. Jaggers" wrote:

oly wrote:
On May 19, 7:21 am, "Mr. Jaggers" lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com
wrote:
oly wrote:
On May 18, 9:32 pm, "Bruce Remick" wrote:
"Peter" wrote in message

...
On May 18, 7:56 pm, "Mr. Jaggers" lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com
wrote:

Bruce Remick wrote:
"Mr. Jaggers" lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com wrote in message
...
oly wrote:
On May 18, 2:59 pm, Ken Barr wrote:
In article ,
Frank Galikanokus wrote:

Talk show host Glenn Beck and Goldline International, a
California-based gold retailer, have colluded to use fear
mongering tactics to bilk investors, according to a
stinging report issued Tuesday by Rep. Anthony Weiner
(D-N.Y.).

Read
mohttp://www.politico.com/news/stories/0510/37413.html

Wow ... a politician accusing a coin deeler and a talk
radio host of unethical behavior ...

It looks like I'm going to have to trot on down to Target
for a new irony meter ... mint just exploded!

--
Ken Barr Numismatics email:
P. O. Box 32541 website:http://www.kenbarr.com
San Jose, CA 95152 Coins, currency, exonumia, souvenir
cards, etc. 408-272-3247 NEXT SHOW: Vallejo Numismatic
Society 5/2 (no table)

The proof of the pudding is in the eating, and if the
sellers' wares weren't too overpriced, presumably those
"scared-out of-their-shorts" gold buyers have done well
recently.

Only if they bought at X and sold at Y, where Y X. How
many people buy gold for the short term? Likely not the
scared/shorts types.
If you're NOT worried about the future value of all the
fiat government paper and all the shabby government
promises, that would be a sign that something's quite
wrong with your mental faculties.

Being worried and doing something pro-actively about it are
two usually-mutually-exclusive activities. How many times
over the past two to three years have you suddenly clammed
up when I pointedly asked what actions should be taken to
protect oneself against those evil things, mon vieux? Just
sayin'

James

Seems to me that we've had federal fiat paper since the Civil
War with no tragic collapse in value so far, and we've gone
through some tough times and weak administrations over those
150 years. These current times undoubtedly are among the most
challenging for us, but I see no reason to panic about the
future value of our dollar. But then I'm not a pessimist by
nature.

History records numerous panics, recessions, and depressions,
all while we were on the esteemed "gold standard." Even gold
could be considered "fiat" money, since its value depends on
what someone other than I says it is. Don't get me wrong, I
like gold, I like its looks, but I have yet to see a
well-crafted scenario of what would happen when push came to
shove. If somebody decides his loaf of bread is worth a St.
Gaudens twenty, very few indeed will eat. The rest will
attempt to kill him who eats, and steal his gold AND his
bread.

James- Hide quoted text -

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I think that pushing and shoving (and especially killing) is a
bit over the top. In that situation on hopes there are still
police. If not, things are very bad, indeed and exactly which
form of money would
be best seems too hypothetical to make accurate predictions.

The observation that we have a form of social democracy, that
our leaders have populist inclinations and have expressed them
in concrete terms is enough for the question of stability of
prices and a store of value to be discussed.

The longer term trend for the price of gold has been clear
enough (from $20/Oz to $1200/Oz). Inconveniently for an
argument that we should depend primarily on gold, it has
occurred over a time frame that exceeds a normal lifetime. The
case that it is a hedge against a weakening currency is a case
that much of the world understands. Admittedly, the US dollar
has behaved better than some other currencies and folks who
lived in Indonesia, Turkey or Zimbabwe tend to scoff at our
fretfulness; even so, perhaps in milder amounts, inflation can
happen here.

My eclectic choices of items to purchase does not seem to
resemble those chosen for the CPI since my expenses do seem to
go up a lot and the CPI does not. Gold has done a somewhat
better job of tracking my expenses than the dollar has (e.g.,
in about 1960 a Piper PA-18-150, new, cost about $5000; today a
usable but thoroughly used one costs about $80,000).

As for whether the advocates of one position or another have
been bribed, ask yourself whether the politicians are
themselves pure.

My personal interest in gold as a commodity is as a hedge. I
have sufficient cash for my needs. My theory is that a small
part needs to be in something that will hold its value (or at
least vary in value in
a different way than paper money). Personally I prefer to keep
some coins and some Goerz Dagors. They certainly won't ward off
bullets, but they might be useful in case doubts arise about
the value of the various forms of colored paper I have. My
broad theory about the correct proportion in other things is
to have enough that it be useful
in buying immediate needs and not be a significant (e.g., less
that 5%) part of my savings.
============

In any extreme crisis scenario where the dollar actually
becomes worthless, one might be better off with a bunker of
MRE's, bottled water, and an AK-47 w/ammo.....plus of course
any particular Starbucks blend one just can't live without.
That stock of gold kept as an inflation hedge will be of little
practical use unless you really need a nostalgia fix. The
process of "buying things" will be a fond memory. Fortunately,
there's a happy ending to this movie. ;)- Hide quoted text -

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Sorry Mr. Remick, but Peter's reply beats yours' by a country
mile. You asked "where's the tragic collapse of the dollar?" and
he correctly replied that it's already happened, but it has been
managed over longer than one person's lifetime.

It is also much more difficult to see the decline when there are
no alternative foreign currencies that are based on/ convertible
in fixed ratios to precious metals. It's easier to be a drunk
when the whole world is the Bowery - you don't stand out nearly
as distinctly.

Of course, we could still see the remaining 4% or 5% of the
dollar's pre-1913 value slip away in one fell swoop.

You really won't be able to use gold DURING a collapse or
revolution. Gold is the time machine that takes you from one
side of a period of anarchy to the other side when normality
returns. Silver would be a better tool during the bad times,
but yes, actually having stored goods for personal use or
barter would be valuable too.

Have you noticed that the ammunition shortages aren't getting
any better???

The ammunition shortages are being caused by irrational fears
that somehow the gummint is going to confiscate private firearms
in the near future (actually, shouldn't we wonder why it hasn't
happened already, since these fears were first expressed back in
'07?), these fears, of course, being trumped up by the radio
talkers. There's just nothing quite like stoking the fires of
fear and hate via several hours a day output from the likes of
Beck and Limbaugh, and I know plenty of otherwise decent folks
right here in North Lugburz who have fallen under their
sickening spell.

That said, your statement about not being able to use gold
during a collapse or revolution has merit. You really cannot
predict the course of such an event (viz. the French Revolution,
one of history's greatest and most ironic failures), so a resort
to survivalism might get you through. How many rolls of papier h
will it take to trade for your pound of jerky, mon bon voisin?
And don't get any funny ideas, 'cause I know karate.

James the Barterer- Hide quoted text -

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Indeed, the French Revolution is probably THE guide for what could
happen in a "modern" "civilized" nation gone beserk. Flashing
gold during the French Revolution was a quick way to get a free
shave by the "National Razor".

They say that vendors sold "programs" of the names of those
scheduled to be guillotined each day to the crowd gathered to
watch. I'll bet the vendors didn't insist on anything other than
assignats.

Nevertheless, I tend to think that silver dimes, quarters and half
dollars will function for the beef jerkey trade. My studies of
the German Hyperinflation 1919-1923 make me think that those who
had silver coins (and foreign notes and coins) didn't fare badly
at all during that period.

I balk at suggesting to you (or anyone), mon vieux, exactly what
to do because so many business/investment situations that I
thought were solid have bellied-up in the last three years.
Things that I thought were good also have done a great job of
losing five-sixths of their value with amazing consistency. Of
course, most of the ones I thought were crappy did not make it
either, but my ability to identify the good ones hasn't been
stellar. Also, I strongly think that we will do a "double-dip"
recession in 2010-11.

I harbor no illusions that the current "recovery" is anything other
than a fool's rally. There are still way too many people who stand
to gain handsomely from another market drop. They have the
wherewithal to bring it about, and they won't wait until the Dow is
anywhere near 14k, methinks.

James



Cannes: How the bankers fleeced the world
Director Charles Ferguson on his smash Cannes doc, which indicts the
financial sector as a "criminal industry"

http://www.salon.com/entertainment/m...son/index.html

Wow. While I'm not in a position to independently verify all
Ferguson says in that interview, it has a major ring of truth and
reality about it. I'd be interested in what other rcc people have
to say about it.

James

Look up these links for a deeper understanding of how "deregulation"
has lead to economic ruin.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glass-Steagall_Act

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garn_-_...stitutions_Act

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gramm-Leach-Bliley_Act

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodi...on_Act_of_2000

The question that must be asked, and then answered, by anyone who plans to
speak to the topic of the American economy is, "Should capitalism be
completely unfettered, no matter who may be hurt, or how badly, or should
restrictions be placed on the economy to protect us all?"

There. I asked the question.

Now I will answer it. I propose that restrictions be placed on the economy
to protect us all, lest we revert to a medieval, feudalistic way of life.

Now I will speak to the topic. Only a very few people benefit from a
completely unfettered economy. The vast majority lose, in direct proportion
to the level of deregulation. Safeguarding the economy is a prime activity
that an individual cannot possibly undertake on his own, and thus is in the
legitimate purview of government.

James

Mr. Jaggers wrote:
Peter wrote:
On May 19, 10:19 am, Frank Galikanokus
wrote:


The only people pushing for a return to the gold standard are those
that are heavily invested in gold, like Ron Paul.


JAM- Hide quoted text -

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I'm not sure I remember correctly, but I think Reagan asked Ron Paul
for a concrete proposal to return the USA to a gold standard and he
was unable to provide one. I don't think it would be a simple
matter.

Exactly - not a simple matter. But, considering the intellect of the
man on the street, politicians know they have to reduce everything to
a sound bite or risk losing the next election. Simple solutions
always play well in Peoria, because they almost always zap the other
guy. Complex solutions zap you and me.

Rep. Ron Paul expresses his ideas the gold standard and the Fed quite
eloquently in his book entitled The Revolution. Two things we can be
absolutely sure of: 1) It will take a Revolution, not an Evolution, to get
us back on the gold standard, and 2) history teaches us that revolutions
never progress according to the blueprints of their perpetrators.

James